SSPX and Anglican Use Mass

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ProVobis said:
I don’t know that much of the Anglican liturgy but it seems as if it certainly takes on a lot of that spirit of VII (as well as the ICEL) here.

youtube.com/watch?v=m3a4dwkSvsI&feature=related

Is this typical of the Anglican Use you attend? Just asking. (I do like the British accent, by the way, but…)
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THat is not an Anglican liturgy, other than in the sense that they seem to be some sort of Anglicans. Anglicans don’t say “And also with you”.
 
If this Mass was in England, many Anglo Catholics celebrate the OF/NO, in which they would respond “and also with you”.
 
BernadetteM said:
If this Mass was in England, many Anglo Catholics celebrate the OF/NO, in which they would respond “and also with you”.
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Many Anglicans say it here as well - I was casting dispersions on their use of the term Anglican:blush:

I have never understood why Anglicans would choose to use the NO mass - seems like a weird thing to do.
 
I don’t know about the US, but what I have been told some, not all, Anglo Catholics felt the need to follow as close as possible to the Catholic Mass. It appears that it is a combination of the NO and the Anglican liturgy.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
BernadetteM said:
I don’t know about the US, but what I have been told some, not all, Anglo Catholics felt the need to follow as close as possible to the Catholic Mass. It appears that it is a combination of the NO and the Anglican liturgy.
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That makes sense. I know there were were liturgical moves to show ecumenism or something like that. Might have involved Lutherans as well, but I would have to ask around.
 
ProVobis said:
That makes sense. I know there were were liturgical moves to show ecumenism or something like that. Might have involved Lutherans as well, but I would have to ask around.
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The Lutherans and many Anglican national churches produced their own liturgies that are much like the OF, shortly after it was produced. You are quite right - they all seemed to think this would allow the various groups to find commonality in the worship and beliefs of the early Church. This seems to have been quite a genuine hope, though rather naive. Accordingly some Anglo-Catholics adopted the new liturgy happily, but many others actually rejected it on the basis that it wasn’t really catholic.

So I find it interesting that there were also Anglicans who were not happy with the old liturgy, nor the new Catholic-style liturgy, but wanted the actual same book as Catholics use.
 
If the Pope approves it, it is of DIvine and Catholic Faith.

Sola Traditio is a heresy also.
 
ProVobis said:
That makes sense. I know there were were liturgical moves to show ecumenism or something like that. Might have involved Lutherans as well, but I would have to ask around.
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The Lutheran Church of France uses the 1969 Missal without any alterations, except perhaps the prayer for the Pope.
 
Gregory_I said:
If the Pope approves it, it is of DIvine and Catholic Faith.

Sola Traditio is a heresy also.
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True, but that doesn’t mean the Novus Ordo is a beautiful or even a good liturgical setting for the Holy Eucharist. Many twelve-year-old children were appointed by Popes as Cardinals sometimes holding over a dozen benefices. Their offices were also of Divine and Catholic Faith - but they were nonetheless abuses.
 
That raises an interesting question, if there is no higher appeal than the pope, what do we do if a bad pope makes CLEARLY bad laws, or promulgates erroneous personal views? Do we merely suffer, or is there course of action to be taken against the Pontiff?
 
Gregory_I said:
That raises an interesting question, if there is no higher appeal than the pope, what do we do if a bad pope makes CLEARLY bad laws, or promulgates erroneous personal views? Do we merely suffer, or is there course of action to be taken against the Pontiff?
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Prayer and patience. The Holy Spirit always brings reform, in His good time.

And there is always a clear separation between the ex cathedra teachings of the Pope (bulls, ecumenical councils, definitions, encyclicals, etc. - setting aside the subtle distinctions between the ordinary and extraordinary Magisterium, etc.) - which are infallible - and his personal views (homilies, books, the Theology of the Body, ecumenical gestures, etc.), which are always open to debate.
 
Cecilianus said:
The Lutheran Church of France uses the 1969 Missal without any alterations, except perhaps the prayer for the Pope.
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Some interesting notes:
The December 22, 1972 issue of The London Catholic Herald quoted a prominent Anglican minister as stating:
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“Today’s liturgical study has brought our respective liturgies to a remarkable similarity, so that there is very little difference in the sacrificial phrasing of the prayer of oblation in the Series Three (Anglican “Mass”) and that of Eucharistic Prayer II in the Missa Normativa (New “Mass”)”
…
The Anglican Bishop of Southwark has stated on several occasions that he greatly admires the N.O. Mass, uses it himself, and would like to see it generally available to Anglicans at least as an alternative. He has also “concelebrated” Mass with Catholic priests when traveling on the continent! (The Catholic Herald, 15 December, 1972).
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Perhaps what is even more revealing concerning the “ecumenical” nature of the New Mass is a key statement from M. G. Siegvalt, a professor of dogmatic theology in the Protestant faculty at Strasbourg: "… nothing in the renewed Catholic Mass need really trouble the Evangelical Protestant "( Le Monde, 22 November, 1969).
…
As if in answer to this question, Jean Guitton, a close friend of Pope Paul VI and a lay-observer at Vatican II, quoted a Protestant journal as praising the manner in which the new Eucharistic prayers had “dropped the false perspective of a sacrifice being offered to God” (La Croix, 10 December, 1969).
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catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/novus.htm
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/novus.htm
 
ProVobis said:
Wouldn’t this imply that the bishop accepts the Vatican II documents on ecumenism?
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I hope so!

Honestly, I don’t think the SSPX objects to whole congregations of schismatics coming back into the unity of the fold (as had happened before at Lyons, Florence, Brest, etc. etc.). What the SSPX rightfully objects to is false ecumenism, which is usually the only thing we see nowadays promoted (wrongfully) under the name of the spirit of Vatican II.
 
Cecilianus said:
I hope so!

Honestly, I don’t think the SSPX objects to whole congregations of schismatics coming back into the unity of the fold (as had happened before at Lyons, Florence, Brest, etc. etc.). What the SSPX rightfully objects to is false ecumenism, which is usually the only thing we see nowadays promoted (wrongfully) under the name of the spirit of Vatican II.
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By “false ecumenism” do you mean that while the Lutherans, Anglicans, and others worked the Novus Ordo into their liturgies, they still refused to believe in the Primacy of the Pope, etc?
 
ProVobis said:
By “false ecumenism” do you mean that while the Lutherans, Anglicans, and others worked the Novus Ordo into their liturgies, they still refused to believe in the Primacy of the Pope, etc?
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I mean more along the lines of watering down the Faith in order not to offend non-Catholics, introducing innovations from Protestantism into our Liturgies, trying concelebrate Mass with Lutheran pastors (believe me, it happens up here!), and also working together with people on social justice issues while deliberately setting aside our duty to evangelize and “proselytize” non-believers.
 
Cecilianus said:
I mean more along the lines of watering down the Faith in order not to offend non-Catholics, introducing innovations from Protestantism into our Liturgies, trying concelebrate Mass with Lutheran pastors (believe me, it happens up here!), and also working together with people on social justice issues while deliberately setting aside our duty to evangelize and “proselytize” non-believers.

.
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I’m not sure, though, that Anglicans and Lutherans agree that it’s ugly.

I’m presuming these are accurate per sources noted.
The following quotes are taken from the ‘Catholic Apologetics’ website. They may help you to see this very serious matter a little more clearly.
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Quote 1. “In 1967, Cardinal W. W. Baum, who was executive director of the American Catholic Bishop’s Commission on Ecumenical Affairs, admitted in the June 27, issue of The Detroit News:
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“They (the six Protestant ministers) are not simply there as observers, but as consultants as well, and they participate fully in the discussions on Catholic liturgical renewal. It wouldn’t mean much if they just listened, but they contributed.”
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Quote 2. “The December 22, 1972 issue of The London Catholic Herald quoted a prominent Anglican minister as stating:
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“Today’s liturgical study has brought our respective liturgies to a remarkable similarity, so that there is very little difference in the sacrificial phrasing of the prayer of oblation in the Series Three (Anglican “Mass”) and that of Eucharistic Prayer II in the Missa Normativa (New “Mass”)”
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Quote 3. “The Anglican Bishop of Southwark has stated on several occasions that he greatly admires the N.O. Mass, uses it himself, and would like to see it generally available to Anglicans at least as an alternative. He has also “concelebrated” Mass with Catholic priests when traveling on the continent! (The Catholic Herald, 15 December, 1972).
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Quote 4. Perhaps what is even more revealing concerning the “ecumenical” nature of the New Mass is a key statement from M. G. Siegvalt, a professor of dogmatic theology in the Protestant faculty at Strasbourg: “… nothing in the renewed Catholic Mass need really trouble the Evangelical Protestant “( Le Monde, 22 November, 1969).”
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Quote 5. “ Who can honestly say that the New Mass is orthodox, when even the heretics find it acceptable? Evangelicals are known for their strong opposition to the idea of the Mass being the Sacrifice of Calvary. If this New Mass doesn’t even “trouble the Evangelical Protestant”, can we truly believe that the New Mass is unequivocal when it comes to the dogma of the sacrificial nature of the Mass?
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As if in answer to this question, Jean Guitton, a close friend of Pope Paul VI and a lay-observer at Vatican II, quoted a Protestant journal as praising the manner in which the new Eucharistic prayers had “dropped the false perspective of a sacrifice being offered to God” (La Croix, 10 December, 1969).”
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Quote 6. “In 1970, a French Protestant theologian wrote:
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“If one takes account of the decisive evolution of the Eucharistic liturgy of the Catholic Church, of the option of substituting other Eucharistic prayers for the Canon of the Mass, of expunging (l’ effacement) of the idea that the Mass is a sacrifice, and of the possibility of receiving communion under both kinds, then there is no further justification for the Reformed Churches forbidding their members to assist at the Eucharist in a Catholic Church” (Le Monde, 10 September, 1970).”
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Quote 7. “As a closing comment to this section, let us hear the words of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, which were recorded in the May, 1974 issue of World Trends:
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“All these changes [in the Mass] have but one justification, an aberrant senseless ecumenism that will not attract a single Protestant to the Faith but will cause countless Catholics to lose it, and will instill total confusion in the minds of many more who will no longer know what is true and what is false”
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catholictruthscotland.com/blog/2008/09/the-mass-words-that-count/
 
`The Anglican Use Mass is nothing like what these Protestant Anglican “observers” have in their liturgy, except for what Rome included when the Anglican Use was established. The Anglican Use priests wanted their liturgy to be taken from one of the Anglican Missals and include the Sarum/Gregorian Canon. They did get the Canon they desired.

There are major differences among Anglicans on what their liturgies are like.

Hopefully this time around more (name removed by moderator)ut from the Anglican Use priests will be listened to. We must remember that to be obedient to Rome we must take what is given and do the best with it.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
ProVobis, thanks for making my day even more depressing…:D;)😛

I thought the Novus Ordo was a pretty big step down when I became Catholic - except, the infinite “step up” of receiving the Eucharist:).
 
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