SSPX and excommunication

[MontChevalier]

This group, the Society of Saint Pius X, is excommunicated?

Why? And how many others on here believe it should be this way, or not?

Exactly WHAT are they?

They’re a new group to me, and from what I’ve read on them, they show to be a pretty strange group. A far-right organization, which, in some ways, is good, but bad. Too far-right is bad, just like too far-left. And I usually just stick with being rational.

Even at the cost of being called a Liberal.

Still I can’t imagine that such a group could possibly exist. And in France, no doubt.
Could someone fill me in on what the Church’s position are on these guys?

-MontChevalier

 

[Zacdecat]

Oh for heavens sake…not this AGAIN!!!

 

[Dan_Daly]

This group, the Society of Saint Pius X, is excommunicated?

Why? And how many others on here believe it should be this way, or not?

Exactly WHAT are they?

They’re a new group to me, and from what I’ve read on them, they show to be a pretty strange group. A far-right organization, which, in some ways, is good, but bad. Too far-right is bad, just like too far-left. And I usually just stick with being rational.

Even at the cost of being called a Liberal.

Still I can’t imagine that such a group could possibly exist. And in France, no doubt.
Could someone fill me in on what the Church’s position are on these guys?

-MontChevalier

The group is not excommunicated, as groups are never excommunicated- people are. Some members of the SSPX have been excomunicated, but they are either all deceased, or have had the excommunications lifted by Rome.

They are not heretics. They are Catholics. That is according to Pope Benedict XVI. They are in an irregular situation, in that they don’t have a an authorized mission within the Church (according to Rome, not according to them). Their priests are real priests, their bishops are real bishops (again according to Rome).

It is a complicated situation, where misunderstanding is common. Sometimes because the details and legal terminology are genuinely confusing, other times because some people on all “sides” put out misinformation.

I’m not a member and have never been to an SSPX mass. However, there is a lot of good in the group, and they have my most fervent prayers that they regularize their situation in the near future.

Pax.

 

[TrueLight]

This group, the Society of Saint Pius X, is excommunicated?

Why? And how many others on here believe it should be this way, or not?

Exactly WHAT are they?

They’re a new group to me, and from what I’ve read on them, they show to be a pretty strange group. A far-right organization, which, in some ways, is good, but bad. Too far-right is bad, just like too far-left. And I usually just stick with being rational.

Even at the cost of being called a Liberal.

Still I can’t imagine that such a group could possibly exist. And in France, no doubt.
Could someone fill me in on what the Church’s position are on these guys?

-MontChevalier

Hi MontChevalier,

There are about 1000 threads on the SSPX on CAF. All of them are hotly debated. In fact, if you do a search, you can read for years to your heart’s content.

Here is one: What is the SSPX?

 

[philial]

As a group, they have decided that the second Vatican Council did not have the required authority to do what it did, and that the follow-up work enacted by Pope Paul vi was in error. In as far as that goes,they are similar in attitude to Martin Luther, but have yet to make the final break their argument would logically lead to.

The Old Catholics of Holland are a similar group which broke with Rome after Vatican Council 1, the dogmas resulting from which they disagreed with.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

This group, the Society of Saint Pius X, is excommunicated?

Why? And how many others on here believe it should be this way, or not?

Exactly WHAT are they?

They’re a new group to me, and from what I’ve read on them, they show to be a pretty strange group. A far-right organization, which, in some ways, is good, but bad. Too far-right is bad, just like too far-left. And I usually just stick with being rational.

Even at the cost of being called a Liberal.

Still I can’t imagine that such a group could possibly exist. And in France, no doubt.
Could someone fill me in on what the Church’s position are on these guys?

-MontChevalier

Don’t waste your time. They will disappear in due time.

 

[ProVobis]

Don’t waste your time. They will disappear in due time.

Four bishops with the power of Apostolic Succession? I don’t think so.

 

[Dorothy]

This group, the Society of Saint Pius X, is excommunicated?

Why? And how many others on here believe it should be this way, or not?

Exactly WHAT are they?

They’re a new group to me, and from what I’ve read on them, they show to be a pretty strange group. A far-right organization, which, in some ways, is good, but bad. Too far-right is bad, just like too far-left. And I usually just stick with being rational.

Even at the cost of being called a Liberal.

Still I can’t imagine that such a group could possibly exist. And in France, no doubt.
Could someone fill me in on what the Church’s position are on these guys?

-MontChevalier

Obedience is very important in the Church. We can change from within, it is not right to go off by ourselves and try to change the Church our way. That is simple and as I see it. We need to be of one mind as our Lord would have it. If we want the Church to be holier, than it needs to start with us.

 

[Planty_Pall]

As a group, they have decided that the second Vatican Council did not have the required authority to do what it did, and that the follow-up work enacted by Pope Paul vi was in error. In as far as that goes,they are similar in attitude to Martin Luther, but have yet to make the final break their argument would logically lead to.

The Old Catholics of Holland are a similar group which broke with Rome after Vatican Council 1, the dogmas resulting from which they disagreed with.

I assist almost exclusively at Society Masses. If that is the position of the Society, I have never heard it. The Council had the authority but it declared itself pastoral and non-doctrinal as regards infallible definitions. Subsequent popes including Paul VI have confirmed this. Secondly, “the follow-up work”, which is also of a pastoral nature may more precisely be considered imprudent or unwise, rather than “erroneous”, which implies a teaching of positive error. That isn’t the problem with the New Mass for instance. Luther was vile and filthy in his attitude towards the Holy Father. I pray with filial affection for Pope Benedict XVI every day of my life, as I did his predecessor. I probably shouldn’t say more as we are not permitted to proselytize for the SSPX here.

The shame of it is that I am not trying to persuade happy Catholics to come to our Masses. It would be good if we could at least fully explain why we aren’t proto-Lutherans! We should be able to be friendly with other good Catholic folks with whom we should share brotherly affection. We’re like Luther? That’s what you think of us? We believe in hurling vulgarities at the Pope? From this side, the deception as to what Abp. Lefebvre and the SSPX have stood for seems to come straight out of hell. God bless you, but you don’t understand the positions that are taken or the attitude with which they are taken.

 

[Walking_Home]

I assist almost exclusively at Society Masses. If that is the position of the Society, I have never heard it. The Council had the authority but it declared itself pastoral and non-doctrinal as regards infallible definitions. Subsequent popes including Paul VI have confirmed this. Secondly, “the follow-up work”, which is also of a pastoral nature may more precisely be considered imprudent or unwise, rather than “erroneous”, which implies a teaching of positive error. That isn’t the problem with the New Mass for instance. Luther was vile and filthy in his attitude towards the Holy Father. I pray with filial affection for Pope Benedict XVI every day of my life, as I did his predecessor. I probably shouldn’t say more as we are not permitted to proselytize for the SSPX here.

The shame of it is that I am not trying to persuade happy Catholics to come to our Masses. It would be good if we could at least fully explain why we aren’t proto-Lutherans! We should be able to be friendly with other good Catholic folks with whom we should share brotherly affection. We’re like Luther? That’s what you think of us? We believe in hurling vulgarities at the Pope? From this side, the deception as to what Abp. Lefebvre and the SSPX have stood for seems to come straight out of hell. God bless you, but you don’t understand the positions that are taken or the attitude with which they are taken.

---

So what are we to make of this. It comes across that the bishop is saying the true Faith/Church Is the SSPX – and non-SSPXers are in a soul rotting NewChurch.

Bishop Williamson’s —“GREEK GIFTS” – I

On September 14 in a few weeks’ time is due to take place in Rome, so we are told, a meeting of Cardinal Levada and Roman officials with the Superior General of the Society of St Pius X and his two Assistants. Catholics who appreciate all that Archbishop Lefebvre and his Society have been given to do over the last 40 years in defence of the Faith need to be forewarned, because that Faith is ever more in danger, and “Forewarned is forearmed”, especially by prayer.

It was Cardinal Levada, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, who was entrusted two years ago with overseeing the doctrinal Discussions that ran from the autumn of 2009 to April of this year, between Rome and the SSPX. It was Rome that invited the SSPX to this meeting. It seems reasonable to anticipate that the Romans on September 14 will be laying down as to future relations with the SSPX their decision emerging from the Discussions.

Now by all accounts the Discussions made clear that no doctrinal agreement is possible between the SSPX as cleaving to the age-old Church doctrine, and today’s Rome as set upon the Conciliar teaching of the Newchurch, and moreover persevering in this disorientation, as is clear from the Newbeatification of John-Paul II in May and from Assisi III due to happen this coming October. So the situation coming out of the Discussions remains exactly where it was two years ago, going into the Discussions: on the one hand, for the glory of God and for the salvation of souls, the SSPX strives to help Rome back to the true Catholic Faith, whilst for the glory of modern man and for the satisfaction of his ignoble media (as in January and February of 2009), Conciliar Rome is doing all within its power to induce the SSPX to blend into the mind- and soul-rotting ecumenism of the Newfaith.

What then can we imagine Rome imposing on September 14 ? Either carrot or stick, more probably, as adjusted by their expertise in its reading of the current state of mind within the SSPX, both. The stick could be a threat of total “excommunication” for the SSPX, once and for all. But who that has the Catholic Faith could be scared by such a threat ? When Archbishop Lefebvre was threatened for the first time with “excommunication” from the Newchurch, we remember his reply: “How can I be put out of a ‘church’ to which I have never belonged ?”

On the other hand the cleverest carrot from Rome could be the apparently irresistible offer of “full communion with Rome” on the SSPX’s own terms. Only there might be hidden away a little clause that would stipulate that future SSPX Superiors and Bishops might be chosen by a joint committee of Rome and the SSPX with the merest majority of members being – Romans. After all, would the SSPX be wanting to come under Rome, or not ? “Make up your minds !” will be their reasonable demand, as Cardinal Ratzinger reportedly cried out in 2001.

Clear minds recall the saying of the wise – but scorned – Trojan who did not want the Greeks’ Horse to be brought into Troy: “Howsoever it be, I fear the Greeks, even when they bear gifts.” But the Trojan Horse was brought in. We all know what happened to Troy.

                                                Kyrie eleison

 

[At_Trent]

As a group, they have decided that the second Vatican Council did not have the required authority to do what it did, and that the follow-up work enacted by Pope Paul vi was in error. In as far as that goes,they are similar in attitude to Martin Luther, but have yet to make the final break their argument would logically lead to.

The Old Catholics of Holland are a similar group which broke with Rome after Vatican Council 1, the dogmas resulting from which they disagreed with.

This is very funny.

You are comparing a Society of clergy who have never denied a single Dogma or Doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, and in fact are in their current situation because of their unwavering defense of Roman Catholic Doctrine and Dogma, to Heretics.

Martin Luther and Old Catholics ? Have you ever looked up the definition of Calumny ?

 

[At_Trent]

---

So what are we to make of this. It comes across that the bishop is saying the true Faith/Church Is the SSPX – and non-SSPXers are in a soul rotting NewChurch.

Well, I suppose we all should pack up our bibles, missals, statues, sacramentals and the rest, and store them in the attic or throw them on eBay ? After all, if you are right here, then the promise of Christ was a lie and the gates of Hell have prevailed, right ?

I mean, if one member of a group of clergy represents the entire group, then that has to fly across the board, no ? So all we have to do is find an article by a dissident spewing heresy, who for all appearances is in full communion with the Church, and using your measuring stick, it will prove the Church he is in communion with is in agreement with him ?

Am I reading you right here ? All SSPX clergy agree with Bishop Williamson by default, and all clergy in communion with Rome agree with, say that Call to Disobedience group of clergy in Austria agree with them by default ?

Or am I reading you wrong and you are really just getting some shots in before the 14th ?

 

[Walking_Home]

Well, I suppose we all should pack up our bibles, missals, statues, sacramentals and the rest, and store them in the attic or throw them on eBay ? After all, if you are right here, then the promise of Christ was a lie and the gates of Hell have prevailed, right ?

I mean, if one member of a group of clergy represents the entire group, then that has to fly across the board, no ? So all we have to do is find an article by a dissident spewing heresy, who for all appearances is in full communion with the Church, and using your measuring stick, it will prove the Church he is in communion with is in agreement with him ?

Am I reading you right here ? All SSPX clergy agree with Bishop Williamson by default, and all clergy in communion with Rome agree with, say that Call to Disobedience group of clergy in Austria agree with them by default ?

Or am I reading you wrong and you are really just getting some shots in before the 14th ?

---

Apparently – you can’t read right — for I said the bishop (singular) and specified who that bishop is – and what he said. And Bishop Williamson is in a position to influence a portion of the SSPX clergy and adherents. As to what will happen on the 14th – we will just have to wait and see. But from the looks of it — bishop Williamson is setting it up – so that if it some agreement does happen – Bishop Falley will look like he sold out Arch. Lefebvre and the Society to the – soul rotting “Newchurch”.

 

[Warloff]

;But from the looks of it — bishop Williamson is setting it up – so that if it some agreement does happen – Bishop Falley will look like he sold out Arch. Lefebvre and the Society to the – soul rotting “Newchurch”.

Sadly, it looks like your right about Bishop Williamson. If there is a some type of agreement Bishop Willamson will be packing his bags and taking people with him as he leaves the Church. He will get re-excommunicated and a formal schism will be declared. I have no idea how many SSPX adherents would follow him, but I pray it’s a small minority.

This said, while it will no doubt be painful for some, it will be good for the SSPX. For all the good the SSPX has done there are some people with the SSPX that are toxic and the society will be stronger without them and in full communion with the Church (and the Church in turn will be stronger).

 

[TrueLight]

I know an FSSP parish who is having a special mass said on Wednesday, 9/14 for the intention of the SSPX’s reconciliation with Rome.

I hope that we will all be praying.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

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