P
ProVobis
Guest
Br JR, your answer suffices for the sake of this thread. Thanks again.
- Status
J
JReducation
Guest
I think that you’re absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with pointing to something and saying, “That shouldn’t be done” or “It’s against the rules.” We do that in other areas of life, be it work, family or something that we study in school, etc.
There are two things about liturgical abuses that I find discomforting.
First, is the fact that they happen at all. People should know better than to insert nonsense into the mass.
Second, all the talk about clown masses and the videos that people on CAF use is often over generalized. I have seen the same five or six YouTube videos repeatedly used so many times that I no longer pay much attention to posts on liturgical abuse. It gives me the impression that we have taken the sensational and repeat it constantly to make it sound as if this is the daily occurrence in every parish around the world, which is not the case.
We also have to be careful not to overuse a term. Abuse is one thing. However, not everything is abuse. The word is overused. I’ve been around for a long time, on three continents and 11 diocese and I have not seen that many things that a lawyer or a liturgist would call an abuse. Our diocesan liturgist, who is very well trained at Holy Cross in Rome, taught me this. There are things that people should not do or omit when they should do, but the gravity is not enough to call it an abuse or to make the mass illicit.
I’ll use a simple example. I was at a mass celebrated by a friar of an order that wears a white habit, not a Dominican. The friar wore the chasuble over the tunic of the habit. The laity probably did not recognize it. As a religious, I can tell the difference between a habit tunic and an alb. That’s not supposed to happen. Even if you’re habit is white, you’re supposed to wear an alb over it. However, it’s not an abuse and it does not make the mass illicit.
Some people would use this as a reason to align themselves with a group like the SSPX and denounce mainstream Catholicism, the OF, and even that particular religious community. When you look at it closely, this does not deserve such an intense reaction. I don’t think I thought about it for more than two minutes before I moved on with my prayer and I never mentioned it again until today. I wouldn’t use this as a reason to align myself with anyone who disobeys the Holy See on a grave matter, nor would I commit grave disobedience because of the many things that I’ve seen that can easily be addressed without creating a tempest in a tea cup.
I have a very dear friend who’s a diocesan priest. He’s very good man and really cares about his parishioners. As I like to tell him, he gets a little Vegas. I stopped by his parish to drop something off and saw the workers putting up balloons. I asked my friend about them. He said that he wanted to do something to bring out the joy of the solemnity. It was the 25th anniversary of the parish. I simply chuckled and said to him, “OK, here me out. Those balloons are not going to bring out the joy of the solemnity, but they are surely going to take the solemnity out of the joy. Get rid of them.” He looked at me like a puppy and said something like, “You don’t think so, huh?” I said, “Nahhhh”. That evening, I attended their 25th anniversary mass. There were no balloons and the mass was beautiful. That’s what I mean by addressing something without creating a tempest in a tea cup. I think you’re saying the same thing. Address the problem without throwing the baby and the tub out with the water.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
Dude, get out of my head!
That’s more or less exactly how I tend to start off in discussions like these.
P
PbloPicasso
Guest
Br. Ewing, Forgive my lack of ability to decipher exactly what’s being discussed on this thread now. But are you implying that someone who is Catholic, that leaves the church, is not acting under the grace of the Holy Spirit? Further, what about this hypothetical case?
A child is born in a mixed faith family. Let’s say one parent is Catholic and the other Protestant. Further, the Catholic parent is not around during the child’s upbringing because of their job. The parent that stays home to take care of the children’s upbringing does everything they can to dissuade their children from Catholic beliefs. In fact, that parent fills the child’s head full of hate talk, anti-Catholic. The other parent is absent most of the child’s life after divorce, mostly on the grounds of faith. Then one day in the child’s teen years they are moved to live with the other parent, who doesn’t seem to practice Catholcisim. The child eventually is put in a brief catechism class to receive the sacraments of Reconcilliation and Eucharist. Well, within, say 6 months, the child moves to a predominantly protestant place without the Catholic parent’s presence. This child is confused, but accepts most of Catholic teaching. a couple of years pass and at the end of 3 years the child receives confirmation and is 18 now.
Let’s throw in something that really falls under controversial. That child, a male, is sent to a religious school and a Church leader does something sexually immoral to the teenager, which throws them in a state of chaotic distrust of leaders in the Catholic Church. Most of this child’s family are Protestant and contunue to berate the Catholic Church and its leaders, using issues like this as an example. The teenager grows into a young man, isolated in a different atmosphere alter in life, military. During that time, his Catholic parent is impossible to deal with becuase they have become quite abusive. The estranged mother is now reaching out to the adult child. The child meets and marries a Protestant of a similar faith they were exposed to as a child. it makes sense to him. The child ends up doubting everything about their Catholic Church not just because of simple doubts or lack of information, but because everyone in the Church to this point has failed him. He has lost his belief that the bishops could allow such a man to walk free of charges.
As you can see, this sounds a little real. That’s because it is. It’s far worst than I described. The man, me, hung onto everything they were taught, even blindly at times. But when I went to get clarifications on things that bothered me, I was told that I would never understand. My protestant family and preacher made more sense and seemed to be real. I was vulnerable out of pride but because I lived a very understandable life. The fact that I attended 12 different schools before high school graduation should be clear enough to illustrate that something serious was going on in my youth. I was the only practicing Catholic in my family. Dad was supportive of the SSPX. He taught me what they teach. But church official, both lay and clerical, portrayed Catholicism in a light that said it doesn’t matter. The reason I left were based on the facts of what I experienced as a Catholic. It’s like i had just discovered that I wasn’t really Catholic, in conscience. All I saw was a bunch of mixed up people that did not believe my faith gained from solo scriptura. No one ever spent enough time and energy to really help me understand. When I was given permission to marry a non-Catholic woman that believed I would go to hell, I felt completely disturbed by all that had happened to me and trusted no one. The bible had become my only means to salvation, in a sense. My new church family also practiced a biblical worship service in the way I understood it.
Where was grace? Why did God allow me to fall into this confussion. All I ever wanted to do was to be happy and to obey God. I wanted truth, finally. I felt that no one in the Catholic hierachy were being truthful. The problem continues even to this day, even though I finally returned. But I returned kicking and screaming because of what I know, experienced. Could God have known that I’d return, and given grace to my wife, who finally converted to Catholicism during my return. Prior to all of what we had been through, she was very anti-Catholic along with her family. Not because of anything other than it taught that the Catholic Church was the beginning of apostasy.
Summed up in brief, where was grace?.
The pain of it was deep. but I thought I was doing God’s will. I prayed for wisdom and asked God to prove to me that the Catholic view was even real. I learned from my experience in a Protestant church that trusting their was equally disturbing. Again, I ask, where was grace. I thought I was doing the right thing by leaving the Catholic belief behind. Now, I’m back home. But where was grace. I thought that grace and divine providence had brought me to the Church of Christ. Was it for my wife’s sake? Or was I not cooperating with grace? etc.
A child is born in a mixed faith family. Let’s say one parent is Catholic and the other Protestant. Further, the Catholic parent is not around during the child’s upbringing because of their job. The parent that stays home to take care of the children’s upbringing does everything they can to dissuade their children from Catholic beliefs. In fact, that parent fills the child’s head full of hate talk, anti-Catholic. The other parent is absent most of the child’s life after divorce, mostly on the grounds of faith. Then one day in the child’s teen years they are moved to live with the other parent, who doesn’t seem to practice Catholcisim. The child eventually is put in a brief catechism class to receive the sacraments of Reconcilliation and Eucharist. Well, within, say 6 months, the child moves to a predominantly protestant place without the Catholic parent’s presence. This child is confused, but accepts most of Catholic teaching. a couple of years pass and at the end of 3 years the child receives confirmation and is 18 now.
Let’s throw in something that really falls under controversial. That child, a male, is sent to a religious school and a Church leader does something sexually immoral to the teenager, which throws them in a state of chaotic distrust of leaders in the Catholic Church. Most of this child’s family are Protestant and contunue to berate the Catholic Church and its leaders, using issues like this as an example. The teenager grows into a young man, isolated in a different atmosphere alter in life, military. During that time, his Catholic parent is impossible to deal with becuase they have become quite abusive. The estranged mother is now reaching out to the adult child. The child meets and marries a Protestant of a similar faith they were exposed to as a child. it makes sense to him. The child ends up doubting everything about their Catholic Church not just because of simple doubts or lack of information, but because everyone in the Church to this point has failed him. He has lost his belief that the bishops could allow such a man to walk free of charges.
As you can see, this sounds a little real. That’s because it is. It’s far worst than I described. The man, me, hung onto everything they were taught, even blindly at times. But when I went to get clarifications on things that bothered me, I was told that I would never understand. My protestant family and preacher made more sense and seemed to be real. I was vulnerable out of pride but because I lived a very understandable life. The fact that I attended 12 different schools before high school graduation should be clear enough to illustrate that something serious was going on in my youth. I was the only practicing Catholic in my family. Dad was supportive of the SSPX. He taught me what they teach. But church official, both lay and clerical, portrayed Catholicism in a light that said it doesn’t matter. The reason I left were based on the facts of what I experienced as a Catholic. It’s like i had just discovered that I wasn’t really Catholic, in conscience. All I saw was a bunch of mixed up people that did not believe my faith gained from solo scriptura. No one ever spent enough time and energy to really help me understand. When I was given permission to marry a non-Catholic woman that believed I would go to hell, I felt completely disturbed by all that had happened to me and trusted no one. The bible had become my only means to salvation, in a sense. My new church family also practiced a biblical worship service in the way I understood it.
Where was grace? Why did God allow me to fall into this confussion. All I ever wanted to do was to be happy and to obey God. I wanted truth, finally. I felt that no one in the Catholic hierachy were being truthful. The problem continues even to this day, even though I finally returned. But I returned kicking and screaming because of what I know, experienced. Could God have known that I’d return, and given grace to my wife, who finally converted to Catholicism during my return. Prior to all of what we had been through, she was very anti-Catholic along with her family. Not because of anything other than it taught that the Catholic Church was the beginning of apostasy.
Summed up in brief, where was grace?.
The pain of it was deep. but I thought I was doing God’s will. I prayed for wisdom and asked God to prove to me that the Catholic view was even real. I learned from my experience in a Protestant church that trusting their was equally disturbing. Again, I ask, where was grace. I thought I was doing the right thing by leaving the Catholic belief behind. Now, I’m back home. But where was grace. I thought that grace and divine providence had brought me to the Church of Christ. Was it for my wife’s sake? Or was I not cooperating with grace? etc.
J
JReducation
Guest
My friend, grace is always there. But God acts at a time when it’s most beneficial to us. He has the big picture and we don’t.Br. Ewing, Forgive my lack of ability to decipher exactly what’s being discussed on this thread now. But are you implying that someone who is Catholic, that leaves the church, is not acting under the grace of the Holy Spirit? Further, what about this hypothetical case?
A child is born in a mixed faith family. Let’s say one parent is Catholic and the other Protestant. Further, the Catholic parent is not around during the child’s upbringing because of their job. The parent that stays home to take care of the children’s upbringing does everything they can to dissuade their children from Catholic beliefs. In fact, that parent fills the child’s head full of hate talk, anti-Catholic. The other parent is absent most of the child’s life after divorce, mostly on the grounds of faith. Then one day in the child’s teen years they are moved to live with the other parent, who doesn’t seem to practice Catholcisim. The child eventually is put in a brief catechism class to receive the sacraments of Reconcilliation and Eucharist. Well, within, say 6 months, the child moves to a predominantly protestant place without the Catholic parent’s presence. This child is confused, but accepts most of Catholic teaching. a couple of years pass and at the end of 3 years the child receives confirmation and is 18 now.
Let’s throw in something that really falls under controversial. That child, a male, is sent to a religious school and a Church leader does something sexually immoral to the teenager, which throws them in a state of chaotic distrust of leaders in the Catholic Church. Most of this child’s family are Protestant and contunue to berate the Catholic Church and its leaders, using issues like this as an example. The teenager grows into a young man, isolated in a different atmosphere alter in life, military. During that time, his Catholic parent is impossible to deal with becuase they have become quite abusive. The estranged mother is now reaching out to the adult child. The child meets and marries a Protestant of a similar faith they were exposed to as a child. it makes sense to him. The child ends up doubting everything about their Catholic Church not just because of simple doubts or lack of information, but because everyone in the Church to this point has failed him. He has lost his belief that the bishops could allow such a man to walk free of charges.
[snipped for space]
Where was grace? Why did God allow me to fall into this confussion. All I ever wanted to do was to be happy and to obey God. I wanted truth, finally. I felt that no one in the Catholic hierachy were being truthful. The problem continues even to this day, even though I finally returned. But I returned kicking and screaming because of what I know, experienced. Could God have known that I’d return, and given grace to my wife, who finally converted to Catholicism during my return. Prior to all of what we had been through, she was very anti-Catholic along with her family. Not because of anything other than it taught that the Catholic Church was the beginning of apostasy.
Summed up in brief, where was grace?.
In addition, God cannot interfere with human freedom, even when that freedom is abused, which is often. There is what we call the passive will of God. These unfortunate things happen in our lives, not because God wants them to happen, but because he can’t stop them from happening. As much as God desires to guide all of those other people in your life along the right path, he cannot force them to walk down that path. In the end, what we see is the ripple effect of sin, often referred to as the social dimension of sin. One man’s sin can become an obstacle for another person’s progress.
Yet, God’s mercy is unceasing, almost stubborn. He continues to prick us and make us feel uncomfortable as we slip and slide away from him in order to get our attention. This is grace. Ultimately, it is we who respond or fail to do so.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
K
keepitreal
Guest
I like this example that you gave, because this is what these great missionaries found out. They went to places like India, China and the Americas, before we were Christian and they found that many Catholic truths had been revealed to these people. Some of these truths had been “deformed” to use a word that St. Maximilian Kolbe used when he spoke about Buddhism in Japan. But he also found that deformed does not change the essence.
How do I explain this?
OK . . . let me try this. I’m in a car accident and I’m deformed. I’m still me. The essence is there.
This is the same thing that St. Paul found when he looked at the image to the unknown god. There was an awareness of a supernatural being that transcended even beyond the pagan gods. This was part of the Truth that Paul knew so well. It was deformed, because this transcendent God was misrepresented, but the fact that such a God exists is a truth. Paul is able to point and say, “This is the God of Jesus Christ.”
The missionaries were able to say, “Your rules about fidelity in marriage, are exactly what God commands.” That’s just an example. But this is the kind of thing that did actually happen. These people didn’t come to Christianity with a blank slate.
I’m a convert from Judaism. But you can’t tell me that I had no knowledge of the truth before I became Catholic. That’s hogwash. More than half of what Catholics believe is also what Jew belief and many Catholic traditions are Jewish traditions, for example, the LOTH. The Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles speak about them.
Another wonderful thing that the missionaries discovered was that many non-Catholics, even Protestants, rejected some Catholic teachings, because they thought that what we were doing or believing was a sin.
This is very important. They didn’t reject our Catholic teachings because they were bad people. Just the opposite. They thought that what we were proposing was offensive to God and they didn’t want to offend God. Men like St. Francis of Assisi, St. Francis Xavier and St. Dominic respected their desire not to offend God. What were they supposed to say, “It’s OK to offend God, so kneel down a pray the rosary?”
They had to take another approach. If these folks believed that praying the rosary was a form of idolatry, the best thing to do was to acknowledge the truth in their statement. “Idolatry is a grave sin,” and acknowledge that this truth is placed in their hearts by the grace of God that flows into the world through the presence of his Church.
Now . . . the challenge is how to help them realize that veneration of the Blessed Mother does not fit under idolatry. Eventually, many will get it and many will shy away from it out of fear. This fear is very real. But God , who is all mercy, understands this. He knows men’s hearts and knows who is being obstinate and who is genuinely afraid or confused. He uses what they have in order to save them. In this case, there is grace to be had for shunning idolatry, not for shunning the Blessed Mother, but for the other part.
Just as there is grace to be had for saying, “I don’t want to do what you Catholics do, because I think it’s a sin and I don’t want to sin.” God loves those who don’t want to sin and he blessed them with grace for that desire not to sin. They don’t get the grace that would come from praying the rosary or adoring the Blessed Sacrament, but they do get the grace that comes from the desire to do the right thing. God is not a ruthless God.
I truly believe that we human beings are ruthless while God is eternally merciful. As Christ told St. Faustina, his mercy holds back his justice. That’s not the exact quote, but it’s late and I’m not about to go paging through her writings to find the exact wording. I also believe that God gives his graces in due season. I see this in my own life and in the life of my people.
How many generations between Abraham and Jesus? God did not convert Israel with a snap of the finger. Sometimes we want to rush something that God does not want to rush. For a reason that is known only to him, he wants to take his time with certain people, just as he took his time with Israel and with the Gentiles.
At the end of the day, God wants to bring all men and women into the Church, but not at the same time, at the same speed, via the same means, or even in the same lifetime.
I remember studying theology of death and reading how at that one instant, truth is fully disclosed to us and we are given that one last chance to say “Yes.”. I truly believe that this is the case for some people. Everything comes together and become clear at the 11th hour. That does not mean that we should wait for the 11th hour. I’m not saying that at all. I think it happens that way for some people.
God is God and we’re not him.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
K
keepitreal
Guest
The other day, we were watching one of those “ghosts” type “other side” type of programs and there was this woman who was performing a riutal in dedication to “Isis”. She was asking the god for some sort of assistance, or something. Well, anyway, my wife then asked me, “Is she praying to demons”? ,and I said "Well, she is praying to a “false god”. And she said “What’s the difference”? and I responded, well…I have to check. Are pagan gods demonic? If you pray to them, are you praying to the Devil or demons?I like this example that you gave, because this is what these great missionaries found out. They went to places like India, China and the Americas, before we were Christian and they found that many Catholic truths had been revealed to these people. Some of these truths had been “deformed” to use a word that St. Maximilian Kolbe used when he spoke about Buddhism in Japan. But he also found that deformed does not change the essence.
How do I explain this?
OK . . . let me try this. I’m in a car accident and I’m deformed. I’m still me. The essence is there.
This is the same thing that St. Paul found when he looked at the image to the unknown god. There was an awareness of a supernatural being that transcended even beyond the pagan gods. This was part of the Truth that Paul knew so well. It was deformed, because this transcendent God was misrepresented, but the fact that such a God exists is a truth. Paul is able to point and say, “This is the God of Jesus Christ.”
The missionaries were able to say, “Your rules about fidelity in marriage, are exactly what God commands.” That’s just an example. But this is the kind of thing that did actually happen. These people didn’t come to Christianity with a blank slate.
I’m a convert from Judaism. But you can’t tell me that I had no knowledge of the truth before I became Catholic. That’s hogwash. More than half of what Catholics believe is also what Jew belief and many Catholic traditions are Jewish traditions, for example, the LOTH. The Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles speak about them.
Another wonderful thing that the missionaries discovered was that many non-Catholics, even Protestants, rejected some Catholic teachings, because they thought that what we were doing or believing was a sin.
This is very important. They didn’t reject our Catholic teachings because they were bad people. Just the opposite. They thought that what we were proposing was offensive to God and they didn’t want to offend God. Men like St. Francis of Assisi, St. Francis Xavier and St. Dominic respected their desire not to offend God. What were they supposed to say, “It’s OK to offend God, so kneel down a pray the rosary?”
They had to take another approach. If these folks believed that praying the rosary was a form of idolatry, the best thing to do was to acknowledge the truth in their statement. “Idolatry is a grave sin,” and acknowledge that this truth is placed in their hearts by the grace of God that flows into the world through the presence of his Church.
Now . . . the challenge is how to help them realize that veneration of the Blessed Mother does not fit under idolatry. Eventually, many will get it and many will shy away from it out of fear. This fear is very real. But God , who is all mercy, understands this. He knows men’s hearts and knows who is being obstinate and who is genuinely afraid or confused. He uses what they have in order to save them. In this case, there is grace to be had for shunning idolatry, not for shunning the Blessed Mother, but for the other part.
Just as there is grace to be had for saying, “I don’t want to do what you Catholics do, because I think it’s a sin and I don’t want to sin.” God loves those who don’t want to sin and he blessed them with grace for that desire not to sin. They don’t get the grace that would come from praying the rosary or adoring the Blessed Sacrament, but they do get the grace that comes from the desire to do the right thing. God is not a ruthless God.
I truly believe that we human beings are ruthless while God is eternally merciful. As Christ told St. Faustina, his mercy holds back his justice. That’s not the exact quote, but it’s late and I’m not about to go paging through her writings to find the exact wording. I also believe that God gives his graces in due season. I see this in my own life and in the life of my people.
How many generations between Abraham and Jesus? God did not convert Israel with a snap of the finger. Sometimes we want to rush something that God does not want to rush. For a reason that is known only to him, he wants to take his time with certain people, just as he took his time with Israel and with the Gentiles.
At the end of the day, God wants to bring all men and women into the Church, but not at the same time, at the same speed, via the same means, or even in the same lifetime.
I remember studying theology of death and reading how at that one instant, truth is fully disclosed to us and we are given that one last chance to say “Yes.”. I truly believe that this is the case for some people. Everything comes together and become clear at the 11th hour. That does not mean that we should wait for the 11th hour. I’m not saying that at all. I think it happens that way for some people.
God is God and we’re not him.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JaMc
Guest
I suppose there can be two ways of looking at Pagan gods: (1) they simply don’t exist and were made up by people in other cultures to explain certain phenomena. As such, praying to them would be like praying to the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy - just a waste of time; or (2) they are demons who duped people in other cultures and parts of the world who did not yet know Christ or the true God that they were “Gods.” In this case, praying to them could be dangerous business.
J
JReducation
Guest
I would have to agree with JaMc. It’s a very hard call to make. The Church tries to refrain from telling pagan people that they are praying to demons.
I guess the best way to look at it is the outcome. If the outcome is an increase in charity and other virtues, then it’s not a demon. The last thing demons want is for your to become a better person. It still remains a false god, don’t get me wrong.
However, somewhere in there, the God of Abraham is trying to break throiugh. God can use whatever means he wants to break through. My own conversion story is like that.
I’ll give you the short version. I was born Jewish and educated by Capuchin Franciscans. When I was in 5th grade I had to do a book report. I did it on a book called The Perfect Joy of St. Francis. I thought it was going to be a funny book, because the guy on the cover looked like a scarecrow. He was holding birds and there were many others on his shoulders. And the book had “joy” in the title. I fell in love with Francis of Assisi at the age of 10. The rest is history. Here I am 53 years later, a Franciscan.
Is Francis God? No. Is he an angel? No. Is he remotely divine? No. However, God used him in my life. God knew that this would work. Obviously, everything that the friars had taught me about Jesus had not impressed me enough to want to convert and I had been in their school since grade 2.
God uses many ways and situations to break into our lives. Never forget St. Paul and the story of the unknown god.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
W
Warrenton
Guest
Our heavenly Father tells us truth, not what is false. In the Old Testament, the gods of the gentiles are mentioned, but not in a comprehensive way. It is hard enough for people to understand and live the truth, we don’t need to be confused further. It was sufficient for our forefathers in faith to know that it was not for them to worship Baal, or the Dragon of Bel, or Dagon. It was enough to know that the Lord of Hosts was mightier than the sorcerers of Egypt. They did not require an exhaustive treatment on the various priestly castes of Memphis and Karnak to follow Moses.
Whenever we leave the realm of truth, we leave the realm of what is knowable with certainty. To be sure, some aspects of paganism were admirable, like the ordinary piety of the Romans, and some were hateful, like the Romans habitual sacrifice of innocent people at the games. Some pagans had an inkling of the truth, which is why the Sybil’s painting appears in the Sistine Chapel. Others, like Nero, had none.
In the right circumstances, even the devils must confess the Lord. With this in mind, when dealing with pagans, the ordinary Christian does best to treat it as a worldview rather than a case in need of exorcism. The vast majority of pagans converted by persuasion.
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
If such ‘prayers’ to a pagan idol were actually directed to some form of occultism, then it would certainly be a demonic entity. If they were simply prayers, then it’s idolatry. So we can’t say for sure one way or another- it depends on the situation.
J
JReducation
Guest
That’s why I say that one has to look at the fruits. Nero was certainly a nutjob.
I believe it was Augustine who said that even the devil serves God.
I like the use of worldview in this case.
Yes, you are right about persuasion. Persuasion only works when there is trust.
There are situations where it is pretty clear that something is evil.
Then there are situations where we’re dealing with ignorance, but a genuinely honest heart. We don’t treat both individuals the same. One person who can teach us how to deal with these situations is Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Look at her life story and how she dealt with Hindus and Muslims. She had it down to an art form.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
Indeed. It’s also worth studying how the North American missionaries, and my favourites, the Canadian Martyrs, preached to the Native Americans.Then there are situations where we’re dealing with ignorance, but a genuinely honest heart. We don’t treat both individuals the same. One person who can teach us how to deal with these situations is Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Look at her life story and how she dealt with Hindus and Muslims. She had it down to an art form.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
St. Jean de Brebeuf for instance is very popular where I live.
J
JReducation
Guest
These folks knew how to separate the evil from the innocent.Indeed. It’s also worth studying how the North American missionaries, and my favourites, the Canadian Martyrs, preached to the Native Americans.
Francis Xavier and Maximillian Kolbe took it further. They actually knew how to identify the God of Abraham trying to come through paganism. They were incredible.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
That’s a subject of great personal interest to me- the discernment of what aspects of pagan religions were foreshadows of Christianity. There are some pretty obvious parallels in Buddhism, before it goes completely off the rails. St. Maximilian was probably very familiar with all of that. The obvious one of course is some of the Egyptian deity-myths; those ones that are used to ‘disprove’ the Resurrection, implying that it’s an old story dressed up as something new. Very fun stuff.These folks knew how to separate the evil from the innocent.
Francis Xavier and Maximillian Kolbe took it further. They actually knew how to identify the God of Abraham trying to come through paganism. They were incredible.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
P
ProVobis
Guest
A
AntiqueCatholic
Guest
Psalm 96:5:
"For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils; but the Lord made the heavens."
I preceive there’s currently a trend towards indifferentism in the Church. I recently was arguing with a Muslim about Catholicism. He was pleased to be able to tell me that “Your church can’t be the true faith, it changes all the time, in the 60’s it said that people of other faiths could be saved, whereas before it said the only salvation was in the church”
I think Westerners now like to condescend to other faiths or dally with them, whereas their remote forefathers rejoiced at the liberation from demonic gods that Christianity brought. They’re all coming back via orientalism and neo-paganism and I think the Church should draw the line, firmly and outspokenly. Catholics and non-Catholics alike now think all faiths have value and that is a great mistake.
"For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils; but the Lord made the heavens."
I preceive there’s currently a trend towards indifferentism in the Church. I recently was arguing with a Muslim about Catholicism. He was pleased to be able to tell me that “Your church can’t be the true faith, it changes all the time, in the 60’s it said that people of other faiths could be saved, whereas before it said the only salvation was in the church”
I think Westerners now like to condescend to other faiths or dally with them, whereas their remote forefathers rejoiced at the liberation from demonic gods that Christianity brought. They’re all coming back via orientalism and neo-paganism and I think the Church should draw the line, firmly and outspokenly. Catholics and non-Catholics alike now think all faiths have value and that is a great mistake.
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TrueLight
Guest
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Warrenton
Guest
I am familiar with the line from the psalms. It’s probably one of the most well known in the Bible.
But see also St. Paul’s explanation in Romans 1:18-32, where he explains that worshipping idols, which were images of the gods, was the result of mistaking the attributes of power for God Himself. God, as a result, gave the idol worshippers up to their passions, because they had exchanged truth for a lie.
No devils needed, human depravity is sufficient.
The missionaries don’t go out into the bush and berate the pagans. It’s not about zeal, it’s about compassion. I am sure there are old Franciscan manuals on how to convert pagans. If paganism was so totally demonic, as some seem to claim, why did the monks and friars take such pains to record the pagan stories and myths? As I wrote eaerlier, why are some of them painted on the Sistine Chapel?
But I must have missed something…did this thread get derailed bigtime, or is it really contended that the SSPX are pagans?
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TrueLight
Guest
Derailed big time.But I must have missed something…did this thread get derailed bigtime, or is it really contended that the SSPX are pagans?
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