W
Will_S
Guest
No. They promise obedience to their superior. That’s all.
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N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
Probably not a vow of obedience, as such, but given their respect for Tradition, obedience to one’s superiors is considered a grave duty (and no, there’s no need to mention to “irony” that they aren’t obedient to the pope…
). I don’t know whether or not it is a formal requirement of their clergy, though if I had to guess I would say that they make a promise of obedience. In any case, it’s a very big thing for them. We’ll see how many priests actually do follow through, but I’d like to think that it means enough to them that they will trust in Bishop Fellay’s judgement.
T
TrueLight
Guest
If the SSPX really wants to be in communion with Rome, they can do it and not change their beliefs about Vatican II.
You know how many diocesan traditional priests I have heard expressed their feelings that:
So my point is, it is quite possible for the SSPX to not be in love with Vatican II or the “Novus Ordo”, but play it cool.
After all, what is most important is the saving of souls and we need an influx of good traditional priests.
You know how many diocesan traditional priests I have heard expressed their feelings that:
- We must keep up the good fight (traditionalists)
- The Latin mass is the mass of all ages (I know folks here hate to hear that)
- Modernism that entered the church through the “Spirit of Vatican II”.
So my point is, it is quite possible for the SSPX to not be in love with Vatican II or the “Novus Ordo”, but play it cool.
After all, what is most important is the saving of souls and we need an influx of good traditional priests.
J
JReducation
Guest
That would be the monkey wrench in the wheel. It would be unfair to grant them freedoms that no one else has. No one is talking about silencing. I’m not silenced. However, as a religious, I have to follow rules about when and where I say what I’m thinking. The diocesan priest up the street, who is not religious has to follow such rules too. We’re talking about game rules here.
That’s not going to happen. That’s demanding that the pope convert to your (not yours) point of view.
The clergy of the SSPX are secular priests. Secular priests come in two wrappers. Some belong to a diocese and they promise to obey the local bishop. This obedience is limited to mattters pertaining to priestly ministry and diocesan policies.
Other secular priests belong to societies: SSPX, FSSP, Opus Dei, Maryknoll, Missionhurst, Vincentians, Oratorians, Sulpicians and others that I don’ t know. They promise to obey the regulations of their society and the head of the society. It need not be a bishop.
For some strange reason that I have never understood, Traditionalists seem to want to call the FSSP and the SSPX an “order”, effectively making them consecrated men. They are not consecrated men. They are secular men who are clerics. This is important to them, because it allows them certain freedoms that I don’t have. They can own property. They can leave the SSPX whenever they wish as long as they find a place to go such as a diocese or a religious community. They do not have to live community life. It’s optional for them, because they don’t make a vow of chastity. They promise celibacy. They could be erected as either a ordinariate or a prelature, religious orders can be neither, because they are order. We already have an infrastucture.
The disadvantage in the prelature is that the Pope becomes the superior and Bishop Fellay would be his vicar. An ordinariate is not quite clear to me. Prior to the Anglican situation the only other ordinariate that we had was the Military Ordinariate which included all priests who served in the Armed Forces around the world. That was disbanded and now each country has its own military diocese. But in that ordinariate those priests were not trained by them and they were not allowed to recruit. They got their priests fully formed and ordained from the dioceses. In other words, the priests volunteered to join them and it was never indefinately. They had to return to their dioceses or orders when commanded to do so by their bishop or their religious superior. I’m not clear on what an ordinariate would look like, unless they’re thinking of the same model as the old military one and just let the organization die by attrition. I just don’t know what that would look like and no one seems to have a clear picture.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
Though those priests have to be very careful not to cross the line of appropriateness. A bishop or a religious superior can take away your faculties to preach. You can celebrate mass, but will not be allowed to say a word. I know priest who may never preach until the superior grants him faculties again. He disagreed with the superior from the pulpit. That was the kiss of death. It’s sad. He celebrates mass, but he cannot preach. In the case of a secular priest it’s even more strict. If a bishop takes away your faculties to preach, he does not have to give them back and bishops can be at their post for 25 years, depending on their age. At least religious superiors change every 3 to 6 years. The next superior can pardon you.
Many superiors and bishops are catching on that some people are trying to play them and they don’t tolerate it.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
I know of no Vatican directives that forbid clergy from any criticism of the documents of Vatican II.
Individual bishops may severely curtail a priest’s ability to do so, for instance by suspending his ability to preach, but as a personal prelature the SSPX would not have to contend with that.
If I am missing something in Canon Law do let me know.
Individual bishops may severely curtail a priest’s ability to do so, for instance by suspending his ability to preach, but as a personal prelature the SSPX would not have to contend with that.
If I am missing something in Canon Law do let me know.
T
TrueLight
Guest
Except there is nothing wrong with saying we must keep up the good fight because for many people, getting a Latin mass in their parish is a struggle. There obviously is a Spirit of Vatican II and it is not a heresy to use the terms “Novus Ordo” or “Mass of All Ages”.Though those priests have to be very careful not to cross the line of appropriateness. A bishop or a religious superior can take away your faculties to preach. You can celebrate mass, but will not be allowed to say a word. I know priest who may never preach until the superior grants him faculties again. He disagreed with the superior from the pulpit. That was the kiss of death. It’s sad. He celebrates mass, but he cannot preach. In the case of a secular priest it’s even more strict. If a bishop takes away your faculties to preach, he does not have to give them back and bishops can be at their post for 25 years, depending on their age. At least religious superiors change every 3 to 6 years. The next superior can pardon you.
Many superiors and bishops are catching on that some people are trying to play them and they don’t tolerate it.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
They stay within the boundaries, but it is quite clear how they feel.
J
JReducation
Guest
One has to be very careful how one says things, be it in ecclesial circles or in the secular world. There is an umbrella term in civil law and ecclesial law that covers situations like this, “conduct unbecoming [priest, religious, deacon, bishop]” just pick one. If your bishop or your superior judges your conduct to be unbecoming your state in life, he can pull you.
I may be able to say things in a classroom that I cannot say in the pulpit. For example, in the classroom, I can ask what is the alternative to Humanae Vitae? It’s a question. I’m not promoting contraception. I’m trying to get my students to think this through. I can’t say that from the pulpit, because it’s not a classroom. The setting and the audience is wrong.
There are some bans arising on the term “Novus Ordo”. Franciscans cannot use it and some diocesans can’t either. You have to use Extraordinary Form and Ordinary Form or you can use Tridentine Form and the Paline Missal. Fr. Trigilio started this complaint on the grounds that the missal was revised almost 50 years ago and has been revised several times since and another revision is coming in November. The term Novus Ordo is not accurate. In addition, the Tridentine form that we are using today is not the original. It’s the form approved in 1962, not the form of St. Francis of Assisi, which was the original, modified by the Council of Trent (hence Tridentine) and modified again by Pope Pius V and modified again by several other popes.
It’s not a catastrophic thing to call it the Novus Ordo, but scholars find it inaccurate, because both the EF and the OF were new at different times and are no longer new.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
So essentially, if I’m not mistaken, you are telling me what I expected; there is nothing in Canon Law, and it is entirely the initiative of individual bishops, ordinaries, and other relevant authorities such as academic deans. Short answer: is this correct?One has to be very careful how one says things, be it in ecclesial circles or in the secular world. There is an umbrella term in civil law and ecclesial law that covers situations like this, “conduct unbecoming [priest, religious, deacon, bishop]” just pick one. If your bishop or your superior judges your conduct to be unbecoming your state in life, he can pull you.
I may be able to say things in a classroom that I cannot say in the pulpit. For example, in the classroom, I can ask what is the alternative to Humanae Vitae? It’s a question. I’m not promoting contraception. I’m trying to get my students to think this through. I can’t say that from the pulpit, because it’s not a classroom. The setting and the audience is wrong.
There are some bans arising on the term “Novus Ordo”. Franciscans cannot use it and some diocesans can’t either. You have to use Extraordinary Form and Ordinary Form or you can use Tridentine Form and the Paline Missal. Fr. Trigilio started this complaint on the grounds that the missal was revised almost 50 years ago and has been revised several times since and another revision is coming in November. The term Novus Ordo is not accurate. In addition, the Tridentine form that we are using today is not the original. It’s the form approved in 1962, not the form of St. Francis of Assisi, which was the original, modified by the Council of Trent (hence Tridentine) and modified again by Pope Pius V and modified again by several other popes.
It’s not a catastrophic thing to call it the Novus Ordo, but scholars find it inaccurate, because both the EF and the OF were new at different times and are no longer new.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
T
TrueLight
Guest
That, I didn’t know.
J
JReducation
Guest
No no no. That’s not what I’m saying. Canon Law specifically uses the term “conduct unbecoming . . .” that allows bishops and superiors to exercise their authority. It gives them great latitutde, because it leaves it up to them to decide what is unbecoming.
Aside from Canon Law, something that many lay people don’t know is that there are several congregations in the Holy See that also have their own laws to which we must submit. If you’re a religious, you must submit to the laws of the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life.
If you’re a cleric you must submit to the laws of the Sacred Congregation for the Clergy.
If you’re a cleric and a religious, you submit to both bodies.
Then there are synodial laws that govern clergy and religiuos that operate within a specific synod.
Then there are diocesn laws for a particular dioceses.
Finally, if you’re a religious, there is Ordinary Law, meaning the laws of your community as well as whatever your superior wants to impose as law.
We have layers and layers of law that can be called on.
When all else fails,the Sacred Congregation for the Faith intervenes or the Rota.
The Sacred Congregations have the unique authority to create a law on the spot, if there is not one in the books. They act in the name of the Pontiff and the Pontiff can create laws as we go along, according to need.
The Catholic Church is like the USA. There are layers and layers of law and law making bodies. Most laymen are only familiar with Canon Law. Canon Law is like the Constitution of the USA. Not everything is in the Constitution of the USA and not everything is in Canon Law, but the law may exist in some other place.
Just like the Constitution of the USA, as long as these other laws do not trump Canon Law, they must be obeyed.
Canon Law is actually very brief. It does not cover every possible situation, just like the Constitution of the USA does not cover every possible scenario. That’s why you have other corpus of law. Things come up that are not in Canon Law and they are coded and made law for specific persons or specific situations.
This is the fascinating part of ecclesial law. Unlike civil law which must be the same for all. Ecclesial law need not be. The Pontiff can apply it to one person and not to another or to one group and not to another. It’s all at his discretion. St. Boniface decreed this and it remains in place.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
Ah, I see what you’re saying now. We weren’t quite on the same page for a moment or two.No no no. That’s not what I’m saying. Canon Law specifically uses the term “conduct unbecoming . . .” that allows bishops and superiors to exercise their authority. It gives them great latitutde, because it leaves it up to them to decide what is unbecoming.
Aside from Canon Law, something that many lay people don’t know is that there are several congregations in the Holy See that also have their own laws to which we must submit. If you’re a religious, you must submit to the laws of the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life.
If you’re a cleric you must submit to the laws of the Sacred Congregation for the Clergy.
If you’re a cleric and a religious, you submit to both bodies.
Then there are synodial laws that govern clergy and religiuos that operate within a specific synod.
Then there are diocesn laws for a particular dioceses.
Finally, if you’re a religious, there is Ordinary Law, meaning the laws of your community as well as whatever your superior wants to impose as law.
We have layers and layers of law that can be called on.
When all else fails,the Sacred Congregation for the Faith intervenes or the Rota.
The Sacred Congregations have the unique authority to create a law on the spot, if there is not one in the books. They act in the name of the Pontiff and the Pontiff can create laws as we go along, according to need.
The Catholic Church is like the USA. There are layers and layers of law and law making bodies. Most laymen are only familiar with Canon Law. Canon Law is like the Constitution of the USA. Not everything is in the Constitution of the USA and not everything is in Canon Law, but the law may exist in some other place.
Just like the Constitution of the USA, as long as these other laws do not trump Canon Law, they must be obeyed.
Canon Law is actually very brief. It does not cover every possible situation, just like the Constitution of the USA does not cover every possible scenario. That’s why you have other corpus of law. Things come up that are not in Canon Law and they are coded and made law for specific persons or specific situations.
This is the fascinating part of ecclesial law. Unlike civil law which must be the same for all. Ecclesial law need not be. The Pontiff can apply it to one person and not to another or to one group and not to another. It’s all at his discretion. St. Boniface decreed this and it remains in place.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Would you say though, that there is significant latitude on what the actual meaning of “conduct unbecoming”, as well as how it should be viewed and enforced?
J
JReducation
Guest
It’s very subjective.
The law protects you by allowiing you to appeal. The only person who can morally deny you an appeal, is the pope.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
That would have been my guess, but I wanted to confirm since you seem to know this stuff.It’s very subjective.
The law protects you by allowiing you to appeal. The only person who can morally deny you an appeal, is the pope.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
It seems also to me that the conduct unbecoming canon is enforced more usually for things like financial mismanagement, sexual indiscretions of a more minor nature (i.e. not abusive or criminal) and things of that nature, although I have to admit that I can’t call to mind specific cases where “conduct unbecoming” was cited.
J
JReducation
Guest
I got into trouble once for conduct unbecoming a religious. I danced the waltz with my daughter at her weddibng. I had to accept a consequence. The superior makes the judgment call. As Sts Benedict, Bernard and Francis say, the bible says of the superior, “He who hears you hears me.” You bite the bullet like a big boy.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
Geez, that seems over the top. Just my opinion of course, but your own daughter? Hm. Glad I’m getting married, not joining an order.I got into trouble once for conduct unbecoming a religious. I danced the waltz with my daughter at her weddibng. I had to accept a consequence. The superior makes the judgment call. As Sts Benedict, Bernard and Francis say, the bible says of the superior, “He who hears you hears me.” You bite the bullet like a big boy.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
Ah, that was cited there? I hadn’t realized.Father Corapi
He did not commit a crime.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
Hopefully, you and your wife will lead a long happy life together. However, many widows and widowers have joined orders and have been very happy.Geez, that seems over the top. Just my opinion of course, but your own daughter? Hm. Glad I’m getting married, not joining an order.
Augustine was not exactly a widower, but he was a dad. So were many other religious and clerics.
Your relationship with your children changes.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
A
At_Trent
Guest
Thanks for explaining thatThe SFO is the Secular Franciscan Order. It is a little different from a third order. It is often called the Franciscan third order (notice lower case), because it was the third order that Francis founded.
The SFO is a real canonical order of Pontifical Right founded in 1221 with its own rule, constitution, superior general, properties, mission, formation program, etc, just like our own order of friars.
The TOSF is an association of the faithful founded by some members of the SSPX who want to follow the spirit of St. Francis, but do not want to join the SFO.
The SFO has already said that unless the TOSF agrees to enter the order and go through six months of aspirancy, one year of postulancy, 18 months of novitiate and three years of temporary profession before making final profession, they cannot be received into the order and cannot use the name Franciscan. That’s why they call themselves Third Order of St. Francis and not Secular Franciscans. They cannot use that name without ther permissio nof the Minister General of the Secular Franciscans.
Franciscans have decided that any group that separated from the Franciscan family to align themselves with the SSPX must recant their affiliation with the SSPX even if there is a reconciliation, because there is an article in the rule in which Francis prohibits obedience and fidelity to any other spiritual father or leader other than himself and his canonically elected successors. The bishops of the SSPX are not successors of St. Francis any more than the General Master of the Dominicans. A Secular Franciscan vows ot obey the Secular Franciscan rule, constitution and superiors over all other authorities. Just as we friars vow to obey our rule, constitutions and our superior over all other authorities in the world.
The only authority over St. Francis and his successors are the popes. But the rule is very clear that the current Pontiff is always the highest authority, not deceased pontiffs. The current pontiff alone can interpret Catholic tradition, according to Franciscan rules and theology. We always adjust to the current pontiff and as they change we change. It’s complicated.
There is no reason why there cannot be a confraternity that is independent of the order. They can’t be an order, that’s all. They can certainly have a devotion to Francis and try to live according to his inspiratioin. No Franciscan is going to be offended by that.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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