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Neil_Anthony
Guest
Yes I think the crimes on on an equal level. I don’t see anyone denying the murder of millions by Stalin or the murder of Christians by muslims.
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Freshman88
Guest
This is the question I saw “Should Jews be allowed to publicly proclaim their faith?”
The choice I made was “Yes, and I do attend SSPX services sometimes”.
Now that question and answer does not equal your conclusion of
“agree that Jews have a God-given right to publicly deny that Christ is the Son of God”.
I certainly don’t think Jews have a God-given right to deny Christ as Son of God. Perhaps you should reread many of these posts.
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
It’s well-known that Jewish sacred books like the Talmud deny that Christ is the Son of God. By voting to give them the right to Express their Faith publicly, you said they have the right to deny that Christ is the Son of God. Where is the confusion?
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
Or is the difference between the word “right” and “allowed”? Would you please explain ?
It’s well-known that Jewish sacred books like the Talmud deny that Christ is the Son of God. By voting to give them the right to Express their Faith publicly, you said they have the right to deny that Christ is the Son of God. Where is the confusion?
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cathguy
Guest
The confusion is here:
It’s well-known that Jewish sacred books like the Talmud deny that Christ is the Son of God. By voting to give them the right to Express their Faith publicly, you said they have the right to deny that Christ is the Son of God. Where is the confusion?
Those of us who believe in the American ideal of freedom of religion and pluaralism believe in the “freedom to be wrong.” What you view as relativism, American patriots view as a right granted to all free people.
This freedom need not necessarily become indifferentism and univsersalism, although liberals are trying desperately to make this case.
Authentic freedom of religion: i.e. the freedom to be wrong, the Church has rightly recognized as a right coming from God. I suggest a thorough reading Fr. John Murray. This discussion has already been had, by our leaders, the Bishops and the Popes in Council, and your case against freedom of religion as already been decided against.
Lefevbre even signed the documents before rejecting them.
I do not view the Second Vatican Council as “super-dogma.” But the issue of freedom of religion has been settled.
I think the stakes are quite here. European “conservatism,” such as it is, leads to fascism, genocides, ethnic cleansing etc. The Europeans have MUCH to learn from the American ideal, and Lefevbre was explicitly opposed to the contributions of American democracy on the world stage. Notice how Fulton Sheen, a truly traditional Catholic Bishop and an American, didn’t follow him.
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
Thank you. So does your America SSPX chapel have an official differnet position than europe or is it just in interpretation?
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cathguy
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I do not worship in SSPX chapels.
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
Me either.
And according to this poll, over 10% of respondents sometimes go to mass at SSPX. But 0% of the SSPX attendees think Jews shouldn’t be allowed to publicly deny Christ, yet over 5% of the non-SSPX think that Jews should not be allowed to publicly proclaim their faith. I’m quite surprised, since I’ve never seen that attitude in regular Catholics.
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bubba451
Guest
[Neil_Anthony And according to this poll, over 10% of respondents sometimes go to mass at SSPX. But 0% of the SSPX attendees think Jews shouldn’t be allowed to publicly deny Christ, yet over 5% of the non-SSPX think that Jews should not be allowed to publicly proclaim their faith. I’m quite surprised, since I’ve never seen that attitude in regular Catholics.]
That’s because it’s a poorly stated question with only a set answer possible.
Are any of you suggesting we silence Jews, by some unstated means–popping them in a bag perhaps, who expresses their faith? The Catholic version of the thought police? Put the shoe on the other foot–ie. silence a Catholic who expresses their faith and mull that over a bit. Not good sense is it?
Further, I think there’s a whole lot of “FSSPX” opinions being handed out here and in other discussion boards out by people who are not qualified to give a FSSPX response and lack any authority to speak for the Fraternity-(AND, yes, that would include me, I suppose).
Look, speculate and talk about whatever but maybe we should let the smoke clear before handing everybody in the room a baseball (or cricket) bat and saying “have at it”.
That’s because it’s a poorly stated question with only a set answer possible.
Are any of you suggesting we silence Jews, by some unstated means–popping them in a bag perhaps, who expresses their faith? The Catholic version of the thought police? Put the shoe on the other foot–ie. silence a Catholic who expresses their faith and mull that over a bit. Not good sense is it?
Further, I think there’s a whole lot of “FSSPX” opinions being handed out here and in other discussion boards out by people who are not qualified to give a FSSPX response and lack any authority to speak for the Fraternity-(AND, yes, that would include me, I suppose).
Look, speculate and talk about whatever but maybe we should let the smoke clear before handing everybody in the room a baseball (or cricket) bat and saying “have at it”.
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Valke2
Guest
That’s your right. And it is my right to call anyone who does so a jew hater.
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Yours_Truly
Guest
You would call them a Jew hater simply because they questioned the holocaust? That would be very judgmental of you. Remember what Jesus said “judge not, lest you be judged”. By calling someone a jew hater, you would be guilty of judging them.
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Valke2
Guest
9 out of 10 times I would. I don’t mind being judgmental. If someone doesn’t mind being a holocaust denier, they shouldn’t mind being judged. I doubt Jesus meant that we can never have an opinon or to judge a person by their behavior.
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Neil_Anthony
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What would you call someone who said to a child whose father had been murdered: “your dad wasn’t murdered, you’re just making that up to get attention”.
I would call them hateful and mean. It’s the same thing with the holocaust. There are too many people still alive today who lost relatives in the holocaust to be able to deny it without deserving to be scorned and rebuked by everyone.
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Yours_Truly
Guest
Really? That is interesting because you are the one claiming that the Jews have a God-given right to publicly deny Christ, which is, in essense, a way of telling a Catholic child that Jesus did not die for their sins.
Why do you only care about the Jewish holocaust? What about the 100 million Gentiles murdered by the communists, or the millions of Catholics murdered by the Muslims, and their relatives? Doesn’t it seem strange to you that the murdered Catholics and their relatives never enteres your mind, while the dead Jews causes you such grief? Why do you think that is?
And think about this: It is the denial of Christ - which you claim man has a God-given right to do publicly - that has resulted in the death of the Catholics? You claim that such a denial is a God-given right, while at the same time you claim that no one is permitted to even question any aspect of the holocaust.
Should you be considered an anti-Catholic since you claim man has a God-given right to deny Christ, when such a denial has resulted in the death of millions of Catholics?
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Lujack
Guest
Why do you insist on forcing distinct events into one massive ball, just to minimize the Holocaust? What about the historical distinctions between Pol Pot and Stalin, two men who never even met each other? Doesn’t it seem strange to you that you are very eager to accuse anyone who feels the Holocaust is important of not caring about dead Catholics? Why do you think that is?
And think about this: How is it the denial of Christ that led to the death of Catholics? Catholics have never killed each other before? What did religion have to do with Pol Pot? With the Ukrainian Genocide?
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Neil_Anthony
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When did I even say what I voted in the poll? Anyway, saying that God allows someone to speak their opinion is not the same as recognizing that their opinion is true. Children understand that.
When did I say that? You’re putting these ridiculous statements in my mouth. It’s called “building a straw man”.
You can consider me anything you want. As long as the pope and my priest don’t think that of me, I won’t lose any sleep over it.
The purpose of this poll and thread was to see what SSPX members believe about religious freedom. I was wondering what they would do if given the power. Would they ban them from speaking in public, send them to ghettos, force them to convert, what? Why don’t you just tell us what you would do to the Jews if you were king of Christendom.
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