SSPX Bp. Williamson opposed to female “Doctors of the Church”: are his reasons good? [Fr. Z]

[HollyDolly]

i don’t understand his problem,unless he is afraid by declaring these saints doctors of the church,some radical nuns and other feminists will clamor to be ordained.

There was a time in the church when great abbesses like St.Hilda of Whitby,St.Ethelreda and others were well respected and powerful in church affairs.their names and deeds have lived down into the present time.
Then,there seemed to be a lessing of the abbesses powers and certainly influence in the church for reasons which i no nothing of.
Male chavenists aren’t anything new.
Then again you had later on St.Birgetta of Sweden,St.Catherine and a few others who even popes listen to .
I just don’t even understand why this is coming up now.These women saints have been honorary doctors of th echurch for a long time.

 

[TraditionalCath]

i don’t understand his problem,unless he is afraid by declaring these saints doctors of the church,some radical nuns and other feminists will clamor to be ordained.

There was a time in the church when great abbesses like St.Hilda of Whitby,St.Ethelreda and others were well respected and powerful in church affairs.their names and deeds have lived down into the present time.
Then,there seemed to be a lessing of the abbesses powers and certainly influence in the church for reasons which i no nothing of.
Male chavenists aren’t anything new.
Then again you had later on St.Birgetta of Sweden,St.Catherine and a few others who even popes listen to .
I just don’t even understand why this is coming up now.These women saints have been honorary doctors of th echurch for a long time.

i don’t know if one would call it chauvinistic, but his attitude doesn’t reflect that of the whole church, it might reflect his own, or that of the sspx i don’t know. all i can tell you is, i do not agree with his attitude. not at all.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

St. Paul was referring to women speaking out of turn in Church - that is, getting up and interrupting the priest to present a homily of their own, or shouting out questions in the middle of Mass.

Please What evidence is there to support that statement? Did you just make it up? Or is there actually any evidence to support it?

 

[bear06]

Where is the document saying that women can’t be labeled “Doctor” of the Church? There are definitely some “jobs” that women can’t be by there very nature - priests for example but our Church has never said that the nature of a women excludes them from being a doctor of the Church. They are doctors for what they have done, not who they are. This can never be the case for women priests. Improper matter.

And this is plain silly.

Since the Catholic mindset is completely opposed to the liberal mindset, the Catholic principles that are opposed to the liberal principles that we may have unintentionally absorbed, will shock us to a certain extent. And that explains why many in the Church today have such a problem with St. Paul’s teaching; and, in my opinion, why the teaching of Bishop Williamson is so shocking to some.

It always cracks me up that if people think Bishop Williamson is a little crazy it’s because we have a liberal mindset. “Bishop Williamson is a little crazy for denying the Holocaust. You must be a liberal.”

Frankly anyone who takes issue with or actually takes the time to take issue with The Sound of Music is a little nutty.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

It seems to me that it doesn’t matter who states the truth. What does matter is “What is the truth?” In order to discern that one must study the Church’s interpretation of St. Paul’s ban on women teaching men in Church and be able to discern whether or not that applies to “Doctors” of the Church. Is the term “Doctor” limited to “teacher” as St. Paul describes it or is the term broader than that?

I’m really not impressed with attacks upon speakers. What interests me is discerning the truth.

CDL

It has always been my impression that the term doctor really says more about the writings of a person than his or her activity - we don’t give out the title just because a person was a good teacher of men in his lifetime but because the writings he has left continue to be incredibly reliable in terms of orthodoxy and have been taken up as theological classics. So I see how Bp. Williamson is trying to point to a distinction between public and private teaching roles, but I just don’t see how a verdict passed on someone’s writings relates to the idea of teaching in public. He seems not to have noticed, at any rate, that both Teresa and Therese were cloistered, hidden away somewhere in Carmel, and at least some of their writings were written not out of the saint’s desire to teach but on pain of obedience by order of their confessors.

 

[otjm]

The Bishop is absolutely right. Making women Doctors of the Church disrupts and confuses the hierarchy of the Church which God created. We are all equal before God, but we do not have the same roles. Just as women can not be priests, they should not be Doctors of the Church. Dominus Vobiscum.

You confuse terms. Hierarchy refers to, generally, the ordained. There is nothing that I have found which indicates that Doctors of the Church must be ordained; hence I fail to see how it confuses the hierarchy.

 

[otjm]

I thing the problem runs much deeper than whether or not these women should have been named Doctors of the Church. I think it gets down to the good bishop thinking that the laity should go back to “pray, pay and obey”; theologians should be locked away in musty rooms in seminaries and never alowed in public, let alone publishing, and women should either be barefoot and pregnant or locked up in a convent where they won’t tempt men.

The good bishop would appear to have a few loose screws; too bad Theresa of Avila is not alive; I think she could have tightened those screws down good and tight.

 

[BobP123]

I thing the problem runs much deeper than whether or not these women should have been named Doctors of the Church. I think it gets down to the good bishop thinking that the laity should go back to “pray, pay and obey”; theologians should be locked away in musty rooms in seminaries and never alowed in public, let alone publishing, and women should either be barefoot and pregnant or locked up in a convent where they won’t tempt men.

The good bishop would appear to have a few loose screws; too bad Theresa of Avila is not alive; I think she could have tightened those screws down good and tight.

But say Theresa had been made a doctor. How much more would her words/deeds be worth to us than they already are? More importantly, aren’t we just looking for more stones to throw at the SSPX?

 

[Walking_Home]

But say Theresa had been made a doctor. How much more would her words/deeds be worth to us than they already are? More importantly, aren’t we just looking for more stones to throw at the SSPX?

---

The way various thread turn out—that may not be far off.

 

[TraditionalCath]

But say Theresa had been made a doctor. How much more would her words/deeds be worth to us than they already are? More importantly, aren’t we just looking for more stones to throw at the SSPX?

no. we aren’t. iam not throwing stones at all. iam only speaking up that his attitude is harsh. it does not reflect the church, if he had an attitude that reflected that of the church then he wouldn’t be in a state of schism would he? i doubt it.

 

[dixieagle]

But say Theresa had been made a doctor. How much more would her words/deeds be worth to us than they already are? More importantly, aren’t we just looking for more stones to throw at the SSPX?

Teresa of Avila WAS declared a doctor of the Church in 1970 by Pope Paul VI…moot point.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Personally, I am not quite sure where I stand on the issue. I happen to believe that the 3 female doctors, have contributed largely to Church teaching, and as such should be studied and listened to. Should they be Doctors of the Church? I’m not so sure. What I do think is that Bishop Williamson has more of a problem with who made them Doctors of the Church (Paul VI and John Paul II), than anything. I think if they were declared Doctors by a Pope previous to Paul VI, he wouldn’t have too much of a problem with it.

 

[childofmary1143]

Personally, I am not quite sure where I stand on the issue. I happen to believe that the 3 female doctors, have contributed largely to Church teaching, and as such should be studied and listened to. Should they be Doctors of the Church? I’m not so sure. What I do think is that Bishop Williamson has more of a problem with who made them Doctors of the Church (Paul VI and John Paul II), than anything. I think if they were declared Doctors by a Pope previous to Paul VI, he wouldn’t have too much of a problem with it.

Well I know that Pope John Paul the Great made St. Therese of the Child Jesus a Doctor but which Pope made St. Theresa of Avila a Doctor and also St. Catherine?

 

[childofmary1143]

Well I know that Pope John Paul the Great made St. Therese of the Child Jesus a Doctor but which Pope made St. Theresa of Avila a Doctor and also St. Catherine?

Okay sorry I found out that Pope Paul VI made St. Catherine of Siena and St. Teresa Avila Doctor’s of the Church in 1970. Not to get off topic but I suspect in good time that Mother Theresa will become one as her writings are just outstanding.

 

[BobP123]

it does not reflect the church, if he had an attitude that reflected that of the church then he wouldn’t be in a state of schism would he?

Please elaborate. Are you saying that the bishop is standing in the way of the Vatican approving of a new woman doctor?

 

[BobP123]

What I do think is that Bishop Williamson has more of a problem with who made them Doctors of the Church (Paul VI and John Paul II), than anything. I think if they were declared Doctors by a Pope previous to Paul VI, he wouldn’t have too much of a problem with it.

You might have a point there. Paul VI (and JPII?) did relax the rules that determined canonization and maybe to the point that the status of sainthood was undermined altogether. Perhaps they relaxed the rules for doctorates too? I don’t know.

 

[mlchance]

Just as women can not be priests, they should not be Doctors of the Church. Dominus Vobiscum.

“Just as”? Nonsense. Women cannot be priests because they cannot now nor ever receive the Sacrament of Ordination. What “Sacrament barrier” prevents women from being declared a Doctor of the Church? None at all. The so-called bishop’s use of St. Thomas Aquinas is little more than sophistry since the Angelic Doctor isn’t addressing the question of whether women can be Church Doctors.

First: Rome has spoken, case closed.

Quite right. I’m increasingly amazed how many so-called “traditional Catholics” seem willing to take the side of schismatics and fake bishops over and against the decrees of the Vicar of Christ.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[TraditionalCath]

Please elaborate. Are you saying that the bishop is standing in the way of the Vatican approving of a new woman doctor?

nope. iam saying that if he had an attitude that was in communion with rome then he wouldn’t be in a state of schism would he? obviously not. the sspx keeps themselves from being in union with rome, not the other way around. his attitude about this issue is not inline with the vatican is it? nope.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

St. Paul was referring to women speaking out of turn in Church - that is, getting up and interrupting the priest to present a homily of their own, or shouting out questions in the middle of Mass.

He was not saying (as we can see, because immediately afterwards he praises Priscilla for doing public evangelism in the streets and in the Forum) that women are not allowed to set up their own venues and teach publicly there.

If that were the case why did he not criticize men for speaking out of turn?

CDL

 

[mercygate]

None of these three women presented their writings as “teaching” or in Church-wide teaching venues during their lifetime. So Fr. Williamson’s assesment is misplaced.

Their works, viewed in retrospect, are valued today for their intrinsic merit and because they are profitable for the whole Church. The honorific title, “Doctor of the Church” recognizes the genuine contributions they have made.

I stand by the Priscilla code (Acts 18:26).