SSPX claims

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Well, you bring up a good point, my friend. The SSPX bishops and priests are steadfastly anti-sedevacantist.

But, the bishops DO teach that both John Paul II and Benedict XVI have taught actual heresies.

They say that these popes did not suffer automatic excommunication for those heresies, however, because of the difference in Catholic theology between “material heresy” and “formal heresy.” I’m not kidding! Just ask SSPX priests, they’ll tell you all about it. Or do some searching on the various official SSPX web sites (esp. SSPX Asia).
That is not true. You are only reading into rhetoric and not actual facts.
The SSPX do not "teach’ that the pope has taught heresy. It is not their official stance. Some members may think that but then again most people at my parish want women priests so…
 
I have seen some claims by SSPX people that Catholics are supposed to resist a “heretical” pope. They claim Pius IX stated this in a letter to the bishop of Brizen. They also say that John Paul II spoke of “new teachings” in Ecclesia Dei. They claim to the contrary that the Church cannot teach anything new. Can anyone point me to some good resources on how to answer these claims?
Thanks,

y.
As for your second question - I don’t think JP II gave any new teaching in Ecclesia Dei: It’s pretty clear in cannon law that any Bishop needs approval, and if you take away the kind language JP II said, the document basically deals only with the fate of the Bishops who defied the Church.

Code of Cannon Law states that:* 1013 No Bishop is permitted to consecrate anyone as Bishop, unless it is first established that a pontifical mandate has been issued.*

Ecclesia Dei is a predictable document that addresses certain people who chose to defy Church teaching, a personal admonishment from the Pope, and clearly written cannon law.

The last paragraph of Ecclesia Dai is worth repeating:

7. As this year specially dedicated to the Blessed Virgin is now drawing to a close, I wish to exhort all to join in unceasing prayer, which the vicar of Christ, through the intercession of the mother of the church, addresses to the Father in the very words of the Son: “That they all may be one!”

I heartily pray too that “That they all may be one!”
 
Well, my friend, you wrote a good answer. I especially liked what you said about we lay Catholics being able to do more than have and raise children. Good one!

But, on the other hand, from my point of view, I feel that you are swimming out into DANGEROUS waters full of man-eating sharks, and yet you don’t see it.

Think of it this way. Suppose you were a Jewish person, and you walked into a meeting of Orthodox rabbis and said, “Excuse me rabbis, but I just read this book by Adolf Hitler called Mein Kampf, and I was wondering how I should rebut all the stuff Mr. Hitler says in their about us Jews.”

In my view, the SSPX bishops are as antagonistic towards the Catholic Church as antisemites are towards the Jews. In general, the Jewish people don’t attempt to rationally engage and rebut the antisemites. Rather, they keep a distance from the antisemites, keep on guard against them, and also try to really the decent people of the Gentile world to reject and stigmatize the antisemites.

If the SSPX bishops are correct in their assertion that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI are/were teachers of actual heresy, then that leads, sooner or later, to the logical conclusion that the Catholic Church is NOT the one true Church and is not trustworthy and reliable. (I suppose you could say that this what I propose as a general “apologetics” answer to all that the SSPX say.)

Antisemites aren’t playing around. If their wishes come true, there will be no more Jews on the earth. And every time a Catholic starts considering whether the SSPX bishops might be right, that Catholic has been seduced down a path that is going to lead to the extinction of the Light of Christ in that Catholic’s soul.

In short, the only thing to do with SSPX-ism is to say “Get behind me, Satan!” and move on. These people are dangerous! I know some or many of the priests and lay people associated with SSPX chapels are devout, faithful and holy Catholics who imagine that they are doing the right thing by attending Mass at SSPX chapels. But that fact does nothing to eliminate the mortal danger to souls that the SSPX bishops present. That is my OPINION, that’s all.

Footnote thought: In fact, the SSPX bishops themselves are quite antagonistic towards the Jews and claim that the Jews (along with Freemason, Communists) are responsible for what they see as the corruption of Catholic Church at and since the Vatican II Council. The SSPX magazine “Angelus” has carried a number of articles over the years that have expressed this point of view.

Orate fratres!
OK, thanks for the advice, but I’ve been dealing with SSPX issues for 30+ years now and they really don’t pose an attraction of any kind to me.

y.
 
That is not true. You are only reading into rhetoric and not actual facts.
The SSPX do not "teach’ that the pope has taught heresy. It is not their official stance. Some members may think that but then again most people at my parish want women priests so…
It is quite true, Bartolome is right. The SSPX web page is full of attacks on the popes as this one shows: sspx.org/sspx_faqs/q7_pope.htm

y.
 
I am genuinely confused. You said this:
OK, thanks for the advice, but I’ve been dealing with SSPX issues for 30+ years now and they really don’t pose an attraction of any kind to me.

y.
And this is your original post:
I have seen some claims by SSPX people that Catholics are supposed to resist a “heretical” pope. They claim Pius IX stated this in a letter to the bishop of Brizen. They also say that John Paul II spoke of “new teachings” in Ecclesia Dei. They claim to the contrary that the Church cannot teach anything new. Can anyone point me to some good resources on how to answer these claims?
Thanks,
If you have been dealing with these issues 30+ years, how does a question arise? Seriously I am confused.
 
I am genuinely confused. You said this:

And this is your original post:

If you have been dealing with these issues 30+ years, how does a question arise? Seriously I am confused.
Simply because I had not run into those particular arguments before, hence my question.

y.
 
That is not true. You are only reading into rhetoric and not actual facts.
The SSPX do not "teach’ that the pope has taught heresy. It is not their official stance. Some members may think that but then again most people at my parish want women priests so…
Following is part of what Bishop Williamson, one of the SSPX bishops, wrote on his own blog (or perhaps someone else is collecting his writings on that blog; in any case, it seems to contain his authentic writings). I think this leaves no doubt but that Bishop Williamson is publicly saying that both the current and preceding popes taught actual heresies.

But when we read the passage below, and the all the rest of the writings of Bishop Williamson and other SSPX bishops, they avoid the sedevacantist (that there’s been no pope since Vatican II) conclusion by saying that we must presume that these popes did not intent to be heretics, so they don’t fall into the category of “formal heretics,” and therefore are not automatically excommunicated from the Church due to heresy (as the sedevacantists say).

But, I in no way think that all the SSPX priests or laity at SSPX masses agree with Bishop Williamson. I’m not even sure that all of the SSPX bishops agree with Bishop Williamson. I’ve seen one other write the same thing. The others I can’t be sure about. Furthermore, things are always in flux. Perhaps even Bishop Williamson has changed his mind since wrote his blog.

bishopwilliamson-pablo.blogspot.com/

*In which case God may allow his Conciliar Vicars to do worse yet, without their ceasing to be his Vicars. Does not Scripture declare at exactly the moment when Caiphas was plotting the crime of crimes against God, namely the judicial murder of Christ (Jn. XI, 50-51), that he was High Priest?

Secondly, it is true that the objective heresy of well-intentioned heretics is much more important for the Universal Church than their subjective good intentions, and it is also true that many objective heretics are subjectively convinced of their own innocence.

For this double reason when Mother Church is in her right mind she has a mechanism for forcing such material heretics either to renounce their heresy or to become fully-fledged formal heretics, and that is her Inquisitors, whom she endows with her God-given authority to define and condemn heresy, to maintain the purity of doctrine.

But what happens if it is the highest authority in the Church that is swimming in objective heresies ?

Who is there above the Popes that has authority to correct them ? Nobody !

Then has God abandoned his Church ?

No, but he is putting it through a severe trial, all too deserved by the tepid mass of today’s Catholics - and, alas, Traditionalists ?

Thirdly, it is true that both John-Paul II and Benedict XVI received a pre-Conciliar training in philosophy and theology. But by their time the worms of Kantian subjectivism and Hegelian evolutionism had already for over a century been eating the heart out of the concept of objective and unchanging truth, without which the concept of unchangeable Catholic dogma can make no sense.

Now one may well argue that both those Popes were morally at fault - say, love of popularity, say, intellectual pride - for falling into material heresy, but moral faults cannot replace authoritative doctrinal condemnation for purposes of turning them from material into formal heretics.

Therefore since only formal heretics are excluded from the Church, and since the only sure way of proving someone to be a formal heretic is not available in the case of Popes, a certain range of opinion on the problem of Conciliar Popes must remain open. *

By the way, I am against all abusing maltreatment and disrespect towards SSPX bishops, priests, and mass attenders. They are members of the Catholic Church. They deserve courtesy, respect, and fraternal solicitude. They are not perfect. The editors and writers of the liberal Catholic newspaper National Catholic Reporter are members of the Catholic Church. They aren’t perfect either. And so many people have suggested that I’m not perfect that I feel that I must give some due consideration to that thought (maybe in a few years when I get more time).

Even so, even considering all my much justified humility, I would warn all people to stay a million miles away from the THINKING of the SSPX bishops, since it is a dark alley leading to a dead end.

By the way, if you do some Google-ing of Bishop Williamson, you can see that he is a favorite of the radical white supremacists and neo-Nazis. That could just be a misunderstanding on their part, I suppose, but…:eek:

Oh, apparently Bishop Williamson’s weekly columns are published on dinoscopus.blogspot.com/ That blog can be read by invitation only.
 
Therefore since only formal heretics are excluded from the Church, and since the only sure way of proving someone to be a formal heretic is not available in the case of Popes, a certain range of opinion on the problem of Conciliar Popes must remain open.
This seems almost like trying to come as close to sedevacantism as possible without crossing over. This AB Willaimson is only accusing the Holy Father and his precursor of* material* heresy, not formal heresy, so the case of sedevacantism remains open. SHEESH. I blew off the initial claim that the SSPX is sedevacantism, but now I see that it may be materially sedavacantism :rolleyes:, but the case remains open. :rolleyes:

I am all for letting this drop and letting the Holy Father deal with it. It makes me want to hurl.
 
Following is part of what Bishop Williamson, one of the SSPX bishops, wrote on his own blog (or perhaps someone else is collecting his writings on that blog; in any case, it seems to contain his authentic writings). I think this leaves no doubt but that Bishop Williamson is publicly saying that both the current and preceding popes taught actual heresies.

But when we read the passage below, and the all the rest of the writings of Bishop Williamson and other SSPX bishops, they avoid the sedevacantist (that there’s been no pope since Vatican II) conclusion by saying that we must presume that these popes did not intent to be heretics, so they don’t fall into the category of “formal heretics,” and therefore are not automatically excommunicated from the Church due to heresy (as the sedevacantists say).

But, I in no way think that all the SSPX priests or laity at SSPX masses agree with Bishop Williamson. I’m not even sure that all of the SSPX bishops agree with Bishop Williamson. I’ve seen one other write the same thing. The others I can’t be sure about. Furthermore, things are always in flux. Perhaps even Bishop Williamson has changed his mind since wrote his blog.

bishopwilliamson-pablo.blogspot.com/

In which case God may allow his Conciliar Vicars to do worse yet, without their ceasing to be his Vicars. Does not Scripture declare at exactly the moment when Caiphas was plotting the crime of crimes against God, namely the judicial murder of Christ (Jn. XI, 50-51), that he was High Priest?

Secondly, it is true that the objective heresy of well-intentioned heretics is much more important for the Universal Church than their subjective good intentions, and it is also true that many objective heretics are subjectively convinced of their own innocence.

For this double reason when Mother Church is in her right mind she has a mechanism for forcing such material heretics either to renounce their heresy or to become fully-fledged formal heretics, and that is her Inquisitors, whom she endows with her God-given authority to define and condemn heresy, to maintain the purity of doctrine.

But what happens if it is the highest authority in the Church that is swimming in objective heresies ?

Who is there above the Popes that has authority to correct them ? Nobody !

Then has God abandoned his Church ?

No, but he is putting it through a severe trial, all too deserved by the tepid mass of today’s Catholics - and, alas, Traditionalists ?

Thirdly, it is true that both John-Paul II and Benedict XVI received a pre-Conciliar training in philosophy and theology. But by their time the worms of Kantian subjectivism and Hegelian evolutionism had already for over a century been eating the heart out of the concept of objective and unchanging truth, without which the concept of unchangeable Catholic dogma can make no sense.

Now one may well argue that both those Popes were morally at fault - say, love of popularity, say, intellectual pride - for falling into material heresy, but moral faults cannot replace authoritative doctrinal condemnation for purposes of turning them from material into formal heretics.

Therefore since only formal heretics are excluded from the Church, and since the only sure way of proving someone to be a formal heretic is not available in the case of Popes, a certain range of opinion on the problem of Conciliar Popes must remain open.

By the way, I am against all abusing maltreatment and disrespect towards SSPX bishops, priests, and mass attenders. They are members of the Catholic Church. They deserve courtesy, respect, and fraternal solicitude. They are not perfect. The editors and writers of the liberal Catholic newspaper National Catholic Reporter are members of the Catholic Church. They aren’t perfect either. And so many people have suggested that I’m not perfect that I feel that I must give some due consideration to that thought (maybe in a few years when I get more time).

Even so, even considering all my much justified humility, I would warn all people to stay a million miles away from the THINKING of the SSPX bishops, since it is a dark alley leading to a dead end.

By the way, if you do some Google-ing of Bishop Williamson, you can see that he is a favorite of the radical white supremacists and neo-Nazis. That could just be a misunderstanding on their part, I suppose, but…:eek:

Oh, apparently Bishop Williamson’s weekly columns are published on dinoscopus.blogspot.com/ That blog can be read by invitation only.
If one wants to drag the SSPX and others in the mud one need not look any firther than Williamson. The man is a disgrace. However it should be noted that he is banned from this current general chapter by the SSPX themselves.
Get that! the SSPX think the guy is nuts. So lets not use an extremist to paint the SSPX with. You would not like it if someone equated the current Pope with Nancy Pelosi. Yet they both belong to the same rite of Catholicism. And yes I know that she is hardly a bishop but she and her like have probably done more to shape modern American Catholicism than any single bishop in office in America.
 
This seems almost like trying to come as close to sedevacantism as possible without crossing over. This AB Willaimson is only accusing the Holy Father and his precursor of* material* heresy, not formal heresy, so the case of sedevacantism remains open. SHEESH. I blew off the initial claim that the SSPX is sedevacantism, but now I see that it may be materially sedavacantism :rolleyes:, but the case remains open. :rolleyes:

I am all for letting this drop and letting the Holy Father deal with it. It makes me want to hurl.
Nice comment. 👍
 
If one wants to drag the SSPX and others in the mud one need not look any firther than Williamson. The man is a disgrace. However it should be noted that he is banned from this current general chapter by the SSPX themselves.
Get that! the SSPX think the guy is nuts. So lets not use an extremist to paint the SSPX with. You would not like it if someone equated the current Pope with Nancy Pelosi. Yet they both belong to the same rite of Catholicism. And yes I know that she is hardly a bishop but she and her like have probably done more to shape modern American Catholicism than any single bishop in office in America.
Good point. I didn’t know that the other SSPX bishops had indicated disapproval of Bishop Williamson.

Even so, I am certain that I read an article by one of the other SSPX bishops also stated that Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul II taught actual heresies (but without becoming actual heretics, since that would mean that they would be automatically excommunicated, which would mean that there has been no real pope for many years).

Also, is it possible that their disapproval of Bishop Williamson is more due to his incessant Mel Gibson-type antisemitism that has gotten so much attention in the media, and not due to his charges of heresy against Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II?
 
Good point. ** I didn’t know that the other SSPX bishops had indicated disapproval of Bishop Williamson. **

Even so, I am certain that I read an article by one of the other SSPX bishops also stated that Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul II taught actual heresies (but without becoming actual heretics, since that would mean that they would be automatically excommunicated, which would mean that there has been no real pope for many years).

Also, is it possible that their disapproval of Bishop Williamson is more due to his incessant Mel Gibson-type antisemitism that has gotten so much attention in the media, and not due to his charges of heresy against Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II?

It’s my understanding – it was Bishop Fellay – who banned Bishop Williamson from the general chapter. The other two bishops – side with Bishop Williamson.
 
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