SSPX...come home

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Yup, because adding the word “hell” when not referring to the place the damned go to in sentence will certainly help get your point across.

“modern Catholic Church”? I was under the impression there is only one Catholic Church, with Pope Benedict XVI as the Successor of Peter.
:rotfl:Melchior…you have to learn to speak ‘traditionalese’ on this thread if you want to keep blood pressure down.😃
I know what they mean by that, see I am bi-lingual, it’s really a nice way of saying… modernists

They also have a way of seeing two churches in operation. One is the ‘mainstream’ Church, which is in serious trouble and the other is them, who is the remnant, who small as they are, continue to fight the good fight - while those in the barque get tossed about on stormy ‘modern’ seas.

Don’t mind too much how it’s said, cause I want people to be able to come here and say what’s on their minds so we can weigh up and get to grips with all the issues and maybe help each other.
 
Don’t mind too much how it’s said, cause I want people to be able to come here and say what’s on their minds so we can weigh up and get to grips with all the issues and maybe help each other.
Unfortunately, this isn’t a forum where we can really have that level of discussion. I’m not trying to criticize CAF by pointing this out, but that’s just the way it is. If you attended the SSPX at one point, then you must know that’s the case…some of these talking points are simply off-limits here.
 
This is almost unbelievable. I would, however, like to point out that these people seem to have just as much need (if not more) to be “called home” as the SSPX. …
I do not know if you can say “just as much.” The situation with the SSPX is far more objective. There sure are a lot of Catholics out there that struggle with issues that they need to grace of God to deal with. It is always far better to be is a situation to be receive the sacramental grace available that without it.
 
The purpose of this thread is to appeal to those who are in the SSPX or similar organizations to “come back to your Father’s house”.:highprayer:

Catholics who are presently ‘in’ or who ‘have been in’ and would like to contribute towards helping those who are still there to consider their position by:

Inviting discussion - sharing information and experiences that are constructive and charitable.

We are all members of the same family and it from this perspective that I would like to start from. :grouphug:
HOME IS WHERE THE POPE IS - - - UBI PETRUS, UBI ECCLESIA

Catholics who are in organizations not in full communion with the Church, are invited to talk on this thread as to why, as members of the Mystical Body, they choose to remain ‘outside’ where they are - and to share their experiences.

Also those of them, that have come back, to also share the how’s and why’s.

No other topics please, unless they are part of your personal experience and have relevance. There is just a chance, if we co-operate, that we might actually learn something we did not know before - and help each other in the process.

My apologies to the Moderator:(
 
It looked like they were going to normalize until very recently. Apparently most SSPX desire to set up their own religion. Otherwise, why would they turn down the offer for a Prelature? Is their raison d’etre to forever sit on the sidelines and critizice? That’s how many Protestant denominations were founded. Henry thought he was still Catholic the way SSPX believe they are still Catholic. Many Anglicans think they are catholic; but the reality is different. In a hundred years, SSPX’s ties to Rome will just be historic in the same way the Lutherans and Anglicans are.
How so? They’re exactly the same as Catholics before the 60’s. They hold the same faith , as someone from that era, and because the faith doesn’t change with time, they have the same faith as you do.
 
Catholics who are in organizations not in full communion with the Church, are invited to talk on this thread as to why, as members of the Mystical Body, they choose to remain ‘outside’ where they are - and to share their experiences.
Again, it probably can’t happen here. Even if someone was just to raise some of the points given in the Ottaviani Intervention, he would likely be banned.

I can admire your intent…even if I don’t agree with it.
 
Unfortunately, this isn’t a forum where we can really have that level of discussion. I’m not trying to criticize CAF by pointing this out, but that’s just the way it is. If you attended the SSPX at one point, then you must know that’s the case…some of these talking points are simply off-limits here.
Take a look at my previous post. Think ‘fine-tuning’ the topic is a good idea. I’m sure we can talk about our perspective and experiences without it turning into another boring thread about what each side does wrong. Look at it this way, books and books, thousands upon thousands of words are written where people disagree, rebel, etc etc.

On CAF it is comforting to know that they hold the line, i.e. the Catholic line and no other. That there are reasons why some of us leave “home” and come back “home” is what is interesting. That we are all children of the same father is beyond dispute - and if anyone here disagrees with this, then CAF and this thread are not for them.

There is a saying that “when elephants fight the grass gets trampled” - not that I am advocating anarchy here - simply reality - loftier persons than us have made decisions, and we have followed them, but essentially it is not our fight. The average sheep just wants a nice pasture to graze in.
 
Again, it probably can’t happen here. Even if someone was just to raise some of the points given in the Ottaviani Intervention, he would likely be banned.

I can admire your intent…even if I don’t agree with it.
Thanks…but enlighten me, what is the Ottaviani Intervention and please only answer in the context of a personal experience or how it impacted on your decisions regarding the Church. Don’t want this to turn into another lesson in right and wrong.

:sleep:i’m off to bed now, await your reply (if we’re still here tomorrow :D)
 
Thanks…but enlighten me, what is the Ottaviani Intervention and please only answer in the context of a personal experience or how it impacted on your decisions regarding the Church. Don’t want this to turn into another lesson in right and wrong.
Uh well…I’m not sure I can answer that too directly. Suffice it to say that Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci had some grave concerns over the changes that were suggested for the Latin Rite liturgy.

And I don’t find speaking of personal experiences to be all that meaningful in these discussions; they’re just anecdotes at best. But we can’t really discuss the facts either since that would involve liturgical comparisons and other such no-nos. While I think that can be done in a productive and respectful manner (even the head of the ICEL praised Fr Cekada’s treatise on this issue!), it’s off-limits at CAF.

Good night!
 
Uh well…I’m not sure I can answer that too directly. Suffice it to say that Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci had some grave concerns over the changes that were suggested for the Latin Rite liturgy.
Do you know that they didn’t write it? They only affixed their signatures to it.

I am asking because for the longest time I was under the impression that it was written by the cardinals, but it wasn’t.
 
Do you know that they didn’t write it? They only affixed their signatures to it.

I am asking because for the longest time I was under the impression that it was written by the cardinals, but it wasn’t.
I actually didn’t know that (and I’ll definitely look into it), but that wouldn’t really bother me. I think that happens with a lot of documents - it’s here at CAF that I learned most of Humanae Vitae was probably inspired by a certain Cardinal Wojtyła and signed by Pope Paul VI. They still have to give assent to the material.
 
MODERATOR NOTICE

As a Catholic apostolate, with proper permission to use the name Catholic, we must remind you that all discussions on this subject must conform to the mind of the Church and to her manner of dealing with the subject and the persons involved.

Therefore, I would ask all of you to look to the CDF and the popes from Pope Paul VI to Pope Benedict XVI and observe the style of their discourse when speaking to and about the SSPX, their good manners, the absence of confrontational language, the diplomacy and the dignity with which they carry themselves.

Please apply the same model of behavior and language to your exchanges on this forum. As I have said before when this subject is posted, if you can’t speak with respect and without aggression, please do not post until you can do so.

Thank You
 
Liturgical Shipwreck by Michael Davies
catholictradition.org/Eucharist/shipwreck.htm

“I have been profoundly touched by the news of the death of Michael Davies. I had the good fortune to meet him several times and I found him as a man of deep faith and ready to embrace suffering. Ever since the Council he put all his energy into the service of the Faith and left us important publications especially about the Sacred Liturgy. Even though he suffered from the Church in many ways in his time, he always truly remained a man of the Church. He knew that the Lord founded His Church on the rock of St Peter and that the Faith can find its fullness and maturity only in union with the successor of St Peter. Therefore we can be confident that the Lord opened wide for him the gates of heaven. We commend his soul to the Lord’s mercy.” – Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, 9 November 2004
 
Now I recall what this was all about, from such a very long time ago that it is only relevant to today’s situation in that it is yet another issue that needs to be brought up to date and cleared up once and for all.

In these days of information available via the internet, it is hardly excusable not to know both sides of the story:rolleyes: and add to that - what the Moderator just posted -we have a Catholic duty here.

…a quick look at what wiki produces on the topic:
Code:
                                                                 [upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Cardinal_Ottaviani.jpg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cardinal_Ottaviani.jpg)
The Ottaviani Intervention or Short Critical Study on the New Order of Mass was a study of 5 June 1969 written by twelve Roman Catholic theologians, who worked under the direction of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.[1] Cardinals Alfredo Ottaviani and Antonio Bacci sent it to Pope Paul VI with a covering letter of 25 September 1969. The study cast doubt on the orthodoxy of the Mass of Paul VI, which had been promulgated by the Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum of 3 April 1969, though the definitive text, which took account of some of the criticisms of the Short Critical Study, had not yet appeared.[2][3]

Pope Paul VI asked the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the department of the Roman Curia that Ottaviani had earlier headed, to examine the Short Critical Study. It responded on 12 November 1969 that the document contained many affirmations that were “superficial, exaggerated, inexact, emotional and false”.[4]

A letter of 17 February 1970 signed by Cardinal Ottaviani and addressed to Gerard Lafond, was published in La Documentation catholique 67 (1970), pp. 215–216 and 343. It stated: I have rejoiced profoundly to read the Discourse by the Holy Father on the question of the new Ordo Missae, and especially the doctrinal precisions contained in his discourses at the public Audiences of November 19 and 26,[5] after which I believe, no one can any longer be genuinely scandalized. As for the rest, a prudent and intelligent catechesis must be undertaken to solve some legitimate perplexities which the text is capable of arousing. In this sense I wish your “Doctrinal Note” [on the Pauline Rite Mass] and the activity of the Militia Sanctae Mariae wide diffusion and success.[6]
The letter also expressed regret on the part of the cardinal that his letter of 25 September 1969, which he did not disown, had been published: I regret only that my name has been misused in a way I did not wish, by publishing a letter that I wrote to the Holy Father without authorizing anyone to publish it.[7]
Jean Madiran, a traditionalist Catholic who was then founder-director of the review Itinéraires, which was condemned by the French episcopate in 1966,[8] maintained that Itinéraires had received the cardinal’s authorization to publish his letter to the Pope and suggested that Ottaviani had signed the letter to Dom Gerard-Marie Lafond, prepared by his secretary, without knowing its contents, since he was blind,[9] as he had been already when he signed his letter to the Pope.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottaviani_Interventionhttp://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/ottaviani.htm

Think that brings and end to that - unless there is a personal angle that anyone wishes to discuss i.e. how did this affect your Faith and if and how you came to realise it.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/ottaviani.htm
 
Just had an “Ah Ha!” moment concerning this forums policy regarding the SSPX, when the moderator sent a PM to inform me that positive comments about them is not permitted.

That being the case, don’t y’all think it would be a better policy not to permit any discussion regarding them at all?

It would seem to me that any discussion regarding them, without their side of the story being represented, would be unjust…
 
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