SSPX communique to Rome

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mark1970
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
  1. Freedom to maintain, transmit and teach sound doctrine of the Magisterium of the Church constant and unchanging Truth of Tradition divine freedom to protect, correct, resume, even publicly, the makers of any errors or innovations of modernism, liberalism , Vatican II and its consequences;
I see this as a deal breaker. I can see where they have to be allowed the choice of conscience, short of heresy, in their understanding of Vatican II. I can not see where they can serve as the public voice of opposition to the Church, over the Holy See, the bishops and even the Holy Father, based on their own understanding of doctrine. We are not Protestants. They would be but 500 among 400,000, or about one tenth of one percent. Their role must be unitive, not divisive.

This weekend in Mass we read about what makes a good shepherd. The SSPX has the opportunity to serve this role to many Catholics who desire their spirituality. How sad if any choose to lead their flock away simply because they are not allowed to be the shepherds of all.
 
I see this as a deal breaker. I can see where they have to be allowed the choice of conscience, short of heresy, in their understanding of Vatican II. I can not see where they can serve as the public voice of opposition to the Church, over the Holy See, the bishops and even the Holy Father, based on their own understanding of doctrine. We are not Protestants. They would be but 500 among 400,000, or about one tenth of one percent. Their role must be unitive, not divisive.

This weekend in Mass we read about what makes a good shepherd. The SSPX has the opportunity to serve this role to many Catholics who desire their spirituality. How sad if any choose to lead their flock away simply because they are not allowed to be the shepherds of all.
Frankly I just want all this Vatican II business to be resolved. In all visible actions and statements the Pope builds this “Hermeneutic of Continuity” which means if something reads in a problematic manner or if the statement is problematic to current pastoral situations, then we go back to see the previous, clearer iteration of the teaching in question. But then if we do that someone, either a Conciliar zealot or ignorant person will say, “Omg omg omg you hate Vatican II omg radical traditionalist,” which of course is ridiculous but lots of people buy into it.

It’s as if wanting clarity makes you a demon. We can’t just ignore these things and pretend they never happened (even though I personally think that would be an excellent solution in some areas) because NCR-esque zealots still rant and rave about Vatican II, and the worst part is that it is very easy for the ignorant and new, poorly-catechized converts to fall into their traps because their language is so sympathetic to modern culture.

So I would personally like to not have to think about Vatican II, but if I did that right now then I would essentially feel as if I was betraying the Church. Sort of like a sin of omission.
 
Brother, if you read this article: riposte-catholique.fr/summorum-pontificum-blog/informations/les-conditions-de-la-fraternite-saint-pie-x then you will see that they are not unilaterally demanding all of the conditions.

“Conditions sine qua non que la Fraternité s’impose et qu’elle réclame des autorités romaines avant d’envisager une reconnaissance canonique,” that is, demands:

Translation as per Google translate:
  1. Freedom to maintain, transmit and teach sound doctrine of the Magisterium of the Church constant and unchanging Truth of Tradition divine freedom to protect, correct, resume, even publicly, the makers of any errors or innovations of modernism, liberalism , Vatican II and its consequences;
  2. Exclusively use the liturgy of 1962. Keep the sacraments that we currently have (including: orders, confirmation, marriage);
  3. Guarantee of at least one bishop.
“Conditions souhaitables,” that is, desirable conditions:

Translation as per Google translate:
  1. Own ecclesiastical courts of first instance;
  2. Exemption of the houses of the Society of St. Pius X in relation to diocesan bishops;
  3. Pontifical Commission for Tradition in Rome in dependence of the Pope, with majority of members and chair for the Tradition.
I understand that they created two lists of conditions. What I said in my post is that I was only going to address the ones that are problematic, which is what I did.

Also, the Google translator is in error on some points. Be careful with it. I read and speak French. The way that Google translated it for you does not pay close attention to independent clauses and dependent clauses, nor to meanings of words in the French language. It does a very literal translation and it uses the punctuation on the written page. The Romance languages do not punctuate dependent and independent clauses. They are understood by context and word endings.
I see this as a deal breaker. I can see where they have to be allowed the choice of conscience, short of heresy, in their understanding of Vatican II. I can not see where they can serve as the public voice of opposition to the Church, over the Holy See, the bishops and even the Holy Father, based on their own understanding of doctrine. We are not Protestants. They would be but 500 among 400,000, or about one tenth of one percent. Their role must be unitive, not divisive.

This weekend in Mass we read about what makes a good shepherd. The SSPX has the opportunity to serve this role to many Catholics who desire their spirituality. How sad if any choose to lead their flock away simply because they are not allowed to be the shepherds of all.
That’s my reaction too. They set no parameters. It sounds as if they’re claiming for themselves the same authority as the pope. For example:

Imagine the SSPX publicly correcting or challenging a bishop or the major superior of one of the five major orders in the Church. This has never been done by anyone who is a subordinate. If they have this authority, then they are not subordinate to ordinaries. They are 500 independent ordinaries. Several thousand bishops and five superiors general with a lot of weight, because they represent a force of over one million cannot be subjected to the magisterium of 500 secular men.

The Church makes it very clear that one state is higher than the other and that there is the right of exemption granted to the big five. You never see a bishop publicly challenging or correcting religious. Remember Notre Dame. The bishops were very careful not to mention the Holy Cross Fathers, even then they drew fire from the Vatican for mentioning Father Jenkins by name. In the :LCWR issue, they have been very careful not to mention specific individuals and to make the corrections vertically. It is a bishop who is overseeing the reformation of the LCWR, not a simple secular priest and not the Conference of Bishops.

Even when correcting the laity, the bishop of the diocese has the last word over the laity, not a society or a religious order. In this case, they would be even further away from the laity, because they would be a prelature. Only those laymen who belong to the prelature come under its jurisdiction.

I don’t see how this would work, unless they reword it. This can also be a starting point for compromise. You start at an extreme to get the middle which is what you really want. The question is whether Archbishop Mueller wants to dialogue. If he says, “No”, Archbishop DiNoia can’t do anything. If he says, “Let’s talk,” he can choose what he wants to discuss and what is not up for discussion. He’s the boss. Traditionalists have to accept this reality. The Holy Father has already done it once and can do so again. He can sign whatever the committee of cardinals suggest.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
So I would personally like to not have to think about Vatican II, but if I did that right now then I would essentially feel as if I was betraying the Church. Sort of like a sin of omission.
Then I have the advantage over you, my friend. I have no problem ignoring any Vatican II controversy. After I converted to Catholicism, I explored this controversy, the claims of those who use such phrases as “Councilliar Church” and the Church’s position. After satisfying myself with the continuity of it, the reason for the reformulations and the orthodoxy that has been maintained, I got to move on! Poor folk like Brother JR have to keep up the shepherding .

:nunchuk:(Franciscan Superior)

I guess you have to lay down your life one day at a time.

If it makes you feel any better, I have my teaching that I am still struggling with understanding, though it has been fifteen years.
 
This was meant to be a confidential letter destined for SSPX superiors alone. Whoever leaked it will have to answer to his conscience, but the cat is well and truly out the bag, so here goes:

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1608&pictureid=13293
My translation of the first condition is as follows:
  1. Freedom to preserve, transmit and teach the wholesome doctrine of the constant Magisterium of the Church and of the immutable truth of divine Tradition; the freedom to oppose, correct, reprove, even publicly, the instigators of errors or novelties of modernism, of liberalism, of the Second Vatican council and of their consequences;
The condition makes clear the SSPX’s position that Vat II contains errors that need to be opposed. This in fact is no longer per se an unacceptable stance. More than one high ranking prelate has pointed out that Vatican II is not dogmatic, even at the level of ordinary Magisterium, in its entirety, but that some texts of the conciliar documents, clearly not doctrinal by their context, are up for debate and even criticism. The question is, what are these texts? Texts that are doctrinal and can be seen to be problematical are to be interpreted according to the constant teaching of the Church, but neither side has a problem with that.

The freedom to criticize does not mean jurisdiction or authority over the rest of the Church. It does however mean that the issues raised by the SSPX will now be up for public debate, with the SSPX no longer being told to shut up in the name of obedience - which need not be a bad thing. No-one, certainly at Rome, denies that the Society has a point. How much of a point is what needs to be thrashed out.

My only problem with this condition is the ‘or novelties’. What exactly is a ‘novelty’ in this context? Is every novelty bad? Who decides if a novelty is bad and to be criticized?

One example: the SSPX conditionally reconfirm faithful whose original ‘conciliar’ confirmation was not done with olive oil, their justification being that only olive oil was used for confirmation before Vat II. But according to Ott (Principles of Catholic Dogma), the ***only ***reason theologians held the matter of confirmation to be olive oil, and not some other kind, was the practice of the Church. Should the Church sanction the usage of any other kind of oil, then the whole theological foundation for opposing the use of a different oil immediately collapses. One cannot be more Catholic than the Church.

I think both sides will have something to learn from the debates to come. 😃
 
This was meant to be a confidential letter destined for SSPX superiors alone. Whoever leaked it will have to answer to his conscience, but the cat is well and truly out the bag, so here goes:

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1608&pictureid=13293
My translation of the first condition is as follows:
  1. Freedom to preserve, transmit and teach the wholesome doctrine of the constant Magisterium of the Church and of the immutable truth of divine Tradition; the freedom to oppose, correct, reprove, even publicly, the instigators of errors or novelties of modernism, of liberalism, of the Second Vatican council and of their consequences;
Along with the points that you made, the five major superiors and some bishops have already raised the question about the part that I bolded in red. Since the Council of Trent that type of correction has been assigned by proper jurisdiction. No one has a universal right to correct and reprove, especially publicly anyone who does not fall under his jurisdiction or who is above him in rank.

Anyone who is not part of the prelature, is not under the jurisdiction of the SSPX, be they lay, clergy or religious. No one but the pope can correct a member of the Pontifical Institutes. No one but the major superior can reprove a religious who has the right of exemption. No one has the right to correct or reprove a bishop, except the Holy See. The only ones who have a right to reprove publicly in the name of the Church are bishops, religious superiors and the Holy See. Up to there, the the paragraph is fine. Then it crosses over into an issue of jurisdiction.

Archibishop DiNoia has already issued a statement on the documents of Vatican II. They must all be accepted as part of the ordinary teaching magisterium. He said that to pick and choose is sophistry and the SSPX will not be allowed to do that. He also explained that in the Dominican tradition they have a custom that allows for two opinions that contradict each other to coexist, as long as neither contradicts dogma. His hope is that the SSPX will accept the documents as error free, with the understanding that they have a different position on certain subjects, but neither their position or that of the documents is contrary to the faith. He called this the least they could do. This was in a recent article published by the EWTN newspaper. I NCR, I think it’s called.

This being the case, they cannot go around accusing statement made by Vatican II as Modernism. They can certainly ask for clarification and even express another opinion, when it is allowed. Some of the documents are open to other opinions and some are not.

The Archbishop also upheld that all of the documents of Vatican II, even though they are pastoral in nature are also dogmatic, as they build on dogma. They cannot be ignored because they do not define dogma. That too is a form of sophistry, which the Dominicans strongly condemn and which he brings to this office. I said this earlier too and no one picked up on it or decided it was not important. Archbishop DiNoia is a true Dominican.

He said that the Dominicans never had the crisis over Vatican II that others are having. The always protected themselves by following Dominic and Augustine very closely. This is the same argument that Franciscans use. We have always protected ourselves from these crises by sticking close to Francis, Clare and Bonaventure. These are men who simply did not pay attention to all the whining and crying around them. Life for the mendicants went on without any thought to the outside. We did what we were told and we never asked why we were doing it. It’s that simple. St. Dominc did not allow his friars to ask why they were doing something. Even St.Thomas had to do what was told to do without asking.

When you place this kind of friar as the Vice President of EC and you make Archbishop Mueller his boss, you’re sending a message of how things are going to be done from now on. The person who made these appointments was Pope Benedict. There is no secret here that the message is coming from Pope Benedict. He had been considering Mueller since February. He had hoped that by Pentecost the whole thing with the SSPX would be closed, Cardinal Levada could retire and Archbishop Mueller could move in and focus on new problem or pending ones.

His Holiness is getting very tough. He took away the leadership of the Legionaries from them. He sent in a team of outside bishops to deal with the Irish situation. He has asked for several bishop’s resignations. He took away the title of Catholic and Pontifical from one university. He has increased the number of friars who have been ordained bishops to an unprecedented number. Why? Because friars have a reputation for doing what the pope commands without asking why. At the same time, they have a reputation for being very fraternal with the people, not distant and they are highly educated – yes, even Franciscans. No, we’re not the last in the class. We have more Doctors of the Church than any other order. I have no idea where people get this image of the “uneducated” or “non scholarly” Franciscan. 🤷 We are cute as the dickens and a little eccentric. That cuteness may distract from our intelligence. :egyptian:

In any case, unless there is more, this first item is going to cause problems.

As I said, there are trust issues. They have serious security problems in their organization. As I like to say, more leaks than old plumbing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
This is like a soap opera. Staying tuned till the next episode!
The only difference is that the programming is not regularly programmed.

At least with a soap opera you know how long you will be left in suspense ! 😉
 
Interesting thoughts all around Brother, thanks for that.

I agree with your earlier comments that the SSPX needs to get its own house in order in terms of obedience. Traditionalists on this forum get all riled up anytime someone associates them with disobedience, but we have actually seen that again and again with these leaks. I would predict it is a small percentage but there are likely some within SSPX who enjoy thumbing their nose at the Vatican and will continue to do so regardless of what is decided in terms of the larger situation.

In addition, I agree that His Holiness is getting tougher, and frankly I am glad to see it. The appointment of many religious to the Episcopate is something we have discussed on this forum previously, and I believed then and still do, that it is about obedience and fidelity to him, and eventually his successor. The full impact of this will not be realized for a long time, but we are starting to see hints of it here and there.

Peace,
 
…No, we’re not the last in the class. We have more Doctors of the Church than any other order. I have no idea where people get this image of the “uneducated” or “non scholarly” Franciscan. 🤷 We are cute as the dickens and a little eccentric. That cuteness may distract from our intelligence.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
I don’t think anyone who has read your postings Brother JR can ever imagine referring to you as “uneducated” or “non scholarly” - cute as the dickens I will have to leave to others :D.
 
This is like a soap opera. Staying tuned till the next episode!

🍿
There was a soap opera, I believe it was General Hospital, that went on for 50 years or so. This one is going to outdo them. This reminds me. I have a former student who is an archivist at the Vatican. I wonder what those guys think of when they read this stuff. Obviously, I can’t ask him what he reads. I just want to know what kind of dreams you have when you go to bed at night. :eek:
Interesting thoughts all around Brother, thanks for that.

I agree with your earlier comments that the SSPX needs to get its own house in order in terms of obedience. Traditionalists on this forum get all riled up anytime someone associates them with disobedience, but we have actually seen that again and again with these leaks.
Let’s look at the facts. They suspended one of their bishops for insubordination. They have had three big leaks in less than six months. Either they have a problem with obedience within their ranks or someone in authority is deliberately allow the leaks to gather public support. It’s like playing for the people in the stands. Either way, that’s not a good sign.

The Vatican is much larger corporation and we have not seen a single piece of paper about its talks with the SSPX or about the SSPX. Nothing has been leaked. There a greater risk at the Vatican. Classified information goes through many hands before it reaches its final destination. Everything that we know about these talks we know through leaks from the SSPX. The Vatican’s answers to questions have been very coy.
In addition, I agree that His Holiness is getting tougher, and frankly I am glad to see it. The appointment of many religious to the Episcopate is something we have discussed on this forum previously, and I believed then and still do, that it is about obedience and fidelity to him, and eventually his successor. The full impact of this will not be realized for a long time, but we are starting to see hints of it here and there.
If one of these Dominican or Franciscan bishops is ever elected pope, groups to the extremes are going to be quite upset. The mendicants have a reputation for walking down the middle of the road and ignoring the extremes. Just look at the Dominican and Franciscan bishops that we have. They rarely express concern about anything outside of their order and their diocese. They run their dioceses as they would run their orders, which has been good for the dioceses. It’s a very fraternal style of government. Some people find it hard to get used to, because there a lot of consulting. That’s because we govern ourselves through consultation. By the time that you’re old enough to be a bishop, you’ve fallen into a pattern of leadership.
I don’t think anyone who has read your postings Brother JR can ever imagine referring to you as “uneducated” or “non scholarly” - **cute as the dickens **I will have to leave to others :D.
View attachment 14415
Here I am at about 6 or 8 months. Aren’t I cute? 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
I don’t understand how a group like SSPX can consider them Orthodox Catholic, but take it upon themselves to ignore any teaching of the Church after Pius X. Isn’t part of being Orthodox that you do not rebel against anything that the Pope approves of? Why do they feel that they know better?
 
I don’t understand how a group like SSPX can consider them Orthodox Catholic, but take it upon themselves to ignore any teaching of the Church after Pius X. Isn’t part of being Orthodox that you do not rebel against anything that the Pope approves of? Why do they feel that they know better?
It’s not so simple. You might read articles index on sspx website.
 
Yeah, I’ll have to look over there website more closely at some point to try and understand. I guess I understand that Vatican II was for from perfect. It definitely reeked of trying to appeal to the hippies, but it just seems like not being recognized as in line with the Church is worse. 🤷
 
I don’t understand how a group like SSPX can consider them Orthodox Catholic, but take it upon themselves to ignore any teaching of the Church after Pius X. Isn’t part of being Orthodox that you do not rebel against anything that the Pope approves of? Why do they feel that they know better?
To be honest, orthodoxy has different meanings for different people. For the Traditionalist Movement it means to teach, worship and exercise ministry as it has always been done.

Here is the glitch. That “as it has always been done” can be challenged by a lot of people. The truth is that there has never been a one size fits all in the Latin Church. That’s more common to the other 22 Catholic Churches, probably because they’re much smaller. Just think about the fact that we have five major schools of spirituality in the Latin Church. They have only one major school for the Eastern Churches. We have five major religious orders and all of our catechisms, liturgical books, vestments, forms of ministry, music, art and devotions have come from them. It is only now that secular priests are getting involved in this kind of stuff. Each of these religious orders expanded and they went through various reforms. As they did so, they made changes to many things, including the liturgy and the catechism.

Trent and St. Pius V tried to unify it all. In the end, neither were successful. Pope Pius was a Dominican. He was pressured by his Master General not to impose the Tridentine mass on the Dominicans. This opened the flood gates. Along came the Carmelites, Carthusians, Franciscans, Benedictines, Augustinians, and Jesuits with the same request and all were excused from using the Tridentine mass and from using the Catechism of Trent. The Dominicans and Jesuits produced their own, which did not agree in everything. After about 100 years of calling each other heretics, the pope threatened them, if they didn’t stop. They asked the pope to look a their work and tell them which was correct. The pope said that he would not become involved in the affairs of two of the three most powerful orders in the Church, unless one of them were teaching heresy, which was not the case. They simply disagreed on the definition of grace, but both definitions were acceptable. Since then, there have been many such situations in which popes have never really intervened. They don’t want to get involved.

The Modernist movement arouse in the late 19th century. It was bigger than religion. But many people reduced it to a conflict with Catholicism. Pope St. Pius X issued a strong condemnation against Modernism. Bl. John Paul retracted the oath against Modernism, because as he said, the oath is not a guarantee of fidelity. People make vows of chastity, celibacy and marriage too. That does not seem to stop those who are determined to get what they want.

The final straw between the SSPX and Rome was when Archbishop Lefebvre ordained four bishops without the pope’s permission, knowing that he would be excommunicated. The SSPX and their friends, even on this forum, argue that the excommunications were unfair and not valid. Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope John Paul both responded to this many years ago. The excommunications are valid, because the pope says they are valid. He can excommunicate for any reason he wants. In this case, the pope did not do the excommunicating, the law did. The SSPX and their lay friends argue that the bishop believed that there was a state of emergency. There is a canon that says that if you do something believing that it’s an emergency, even if you’re wrong, you cannot be excommunicated.

There is also the faith of the Church and the tradition that goes back to Boniface IV that says that the laws of the Church are subject to the pope. The pope is not subject to the laws. Pope John Paul responded by saying that he would not allow this law to be applied to the SSPX bishops. Cardinal Ratzinger added that this is the pope’s right and the case is closed. There is no appeal, because the pope has the divine authority to say what law applies to you and what does not.

The big deal was not about being traditionalist, but about illegal ordinations of bishops. Over the years, they have made many comments that have created many concerns. Some of their comments, make sense, when you take them in context. Out of context, they sound strange. Some of their comments are insubordinate, arrogant, and just plain defiant. This letter is a good example. They use the word “demand”.

No Catholic has the right to demand anything from the Church except the sacraments. That’s a divine right. They’re not demanding sacraments. There is arrogance there.

They use terms like the “errors of Vatican II”. The Church cannot teach error. If there are errors, they are in the interpretation of what Vatican II said or in the application, not in the Council documents. This sends off a signal of defiance. Here are four bishops, with very basic theological education, challenging the likes of Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI who could run laps around the four bishops of the SSPX, with their genius in law, theology and philosophy. These men are scholars. They understand their theology and they understand what they as popes can and cannot do. They also understand what their predecessors said and what binds them as what does not. For a bishop that was not even chosen by the pope and who is far less educated than the pope to tell the pope that this or that is in error, when the pope looks at it from every angle and does not see the error, it comes off as arrogant. Pope Benedict said that the SSPX is arrogant. These are not my words. He said this in a number of documents in the last three years. It’s a conflict that the pope has been trying to bend in order to resolve. But they SSPX now seems not so flexible.

Bishop Fellay betrayed the Vatican. This raises the questions in the mind of all of us who are in positions of authority. He was the one who was going to make the decision for the SSPX, because he is the superior general. When he gave the decision to the general chapter, he created an untenable situation. Whatever the general chapter decides, the superior general is bound to do.

The general chapter has decided that it cannot accept what Rome wants. Now, Bishop Fellay cannot legally come back and unilaterally accept in the name of the SSPX. He no longer has the authority to do so.

The Vatican and all of us had been told to butt out of this. This discussion was between a small group that consisted of Bishop Fellay and his theological advisers and Cardinal Levada and his theological advisers. All bishops, cardinals and religious superiors were to offer no (name removed by moderator)ut. This was going to be a unilateral decision between Pope Benedict and Bishop Fellay, after the dialogue between the two teams was over.

Suddenly, on the SSPX side, we have common priests voting on matters of theological and canonical importance, but on the Vatican side, no one is allowed a vote except the committee of cardinals and their vote is consultative, not legislative as is the vote of the chapter delegates of the SSPX. The cardinals can vote, but they cannot bind the pope. The chapter delegates can bind Bishop Fellay and every superior general for generations to come. That was not expected. He never said that a special general chapter would be called to decide. He had even sent a very strong letter to the community telling them that he and his council were in charge and this was going to be his decision and they were going to have to obey. In his letter he also said, “The pope wants this now and he will no longer wait.”

This turn of events raises more red flags for many people, about trust, obedience and even about the authority of the superior general. It’s a mess and we have to pray that the Holy Spirit turns on a light.

My hope is that this letter is the interpretation of the writer, not the actual statement of the general chapter. We’ll have to wait for the next installment.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
It’s not so simple. You might read articles index on sspx website.
Let’s offer him a balanced reading list.

Also read Light of The World, in which the Holy Father explains the Vatican’s issue with the SSPX. Read Summorum Pontificum and the latest interview with Arcbishop DiNoia in which he calls the position held by some traditionalists about Vatican II, sophistry and he states that Vatican II does not teach error and that it must be accepted as a whole, because it is the ordinary Magisterium speaking. He speaks of applying the Dominican tradition to this situation, where two differing positions can co-exist as long as neither teaches heresy. He says that “this is they least they [SSPX] can do.”

Just referring to the SSPX sites and not to the other side is not balanced. You may want to go to the FSSP site and find out why they left the SSPX.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Thank you Br JR. I wish I’d never heard of any of this. It just seems that every day I hear something about the church that disturbs me, makes me so sad lately - (today it was 5 million given to abortion-supporting charity by USCCB.) So I attended my first SSPX chapel Mass today. I just felt like I wanted the beliefs and church of my parents and grandparents back. It was a very nice experience.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top