SSPX Could Return This Week - Agreement With Rome Near

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dauphin
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I hope it works out.

I’m curious on one thing though. One of the things SSPX wanted was the lifting of the the excommunions. In the case of Lefebvre what difference would it make. If someone has been excommunicated and they do not repent before death then they will go to Hell. Lifting the excommunication would not change that. He can’t move from Hell to Heaven.
Actually being excommunicated - and dying unrepentant of it is no way saying the person is in hell. The Church has never decreed a person to be in hell.

I am sure that a formal lifting of the decreed excommunication would also include a radical sanation - which would be a lifting even of the decree stating no error on the part of the Archbishop…

In fact - think of this - if it weren’t for him and his movement - the “Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite” as it is called now, would no longer exist.

Ken
 
Actually being excommunicated - and dying unrepentant of it is no way saying the person is in hell. The Church has never decreed a person to be in hell.

I am sure that a formal lifting of the decreed excommunication would also include a radical sanation - which would be a lifting even of the decree stating no error on the part of the Archbishop…

In fact - think of this - if it weren’t for him and his movement - the “Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite” as it is called now, would no longer exist.
Ken
I really don’t believe we can make that assumption. We do not know what would have been if what was never was.

CC
 
I pray that God’s will may be done. But if the SSPX wishes to come back into full communion with Rome, they are going to have to accept any terms that Rome has put forth to them. The pope has done everything possible to reach out to them; now it’s up to the bishop, the priests, and those Catholics who are supporters of the SSPX to decide to return to full communion. Their fate rests in their own hands now.
 
I really don’t believe we can make that assumption. We do not know what would have been if what was never was.

CC
Well the FSSP would not exist - the document giving them canonical status Ecclesia Dei would not exist. If there was no rebellion done simply by not changing anything - the TLM WOULD NO LONGER EXIST - all would have been lost.

There had to have been a movement done and founded that has led to Summorum Pontificum…it would not have happened if it were not for such noise created by those who owe everything to Marcel Lefebvre.

Those on the other side are screaming to canonize Luther and his reformers for the success of the imposition of the stuff we have now.

Ken
 
I don’t attend the Extraordinary Form. I attend the Ordinary Form at my home parish and am happy with it. I’m not “screaming” to have Luther canonized, though. 😦

I do hope, though, that the SSPX will be brought back peacefully to full communion with Rome and this wound in Christ’s Mystical Body will begin to heal.
 
Ain’t gonna happen. Not right now at least. The SSPX would want special concessions if they were to return Home and they ain’t gonna get them. They will be completely and thoroughly subsumed by the Church if/when they return and **I think their egos are still bloated with too much pride **at this time for it to happen.
Don’t you think it is best to refrain from this kind of uncharitable talk? What pupose does it serve?
Their fixation on the change from “for many” into “for all” is a prime example.
I’m sorry that you don’t recognize the vastly meaningful difference between the two small words “many” and “all.” Even Pope Benedict has called for the correct translation to be implemented.
 
Actually being excommunicated - and dying unrepentant of it is no way saying the person is in hell. The Church has never decreed a person to be in hell.
I am sure that a formal lifting of the decreed excommunication would also include a radical sanation - which would be a lifting even of the decree stating no error on the part of the Archbishop…

In fact - think of this - if it weren’t for him and his movement - the “Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite” as it is called now, would no longer exist.

Ken
That’s not what I said.
If a person is excommunicated they are in a state of mortal sin. Anyone who dies in a state of unrepented mortal sin goes to Hell.
 
Oh, many prayers, especially to Pope St Pius X whose heart must be breaking at the division between his successor in Rome and the SSPX who have named themselves after him.
I think it is more likely that Pope St. Pius X’s heart is breaking from the Church’s embracing of modernism.
 
Don’t you think it is best to refrain from this kind of uncharitable talk? What pupose does it serve?
That’s pretty much all the SSPX is – a prolonged uncharitable attack on the Catholic Church.
I’m sorry that you don’t recognize the vastly meaningful difference between the two small words “many” and “all.” Even Pope Benedict has called for the correct translation to be implemented.
Some of the SSPX individuals actually question the validity of the Mass because of the words. What utter arrogance and ignorance! If the official change comes down I will be the first to embrace it, but to question the validity of the Pauline Mass? No freaking way.
 
My Aunt and Uncle just visited me this weekend. They are both in the SSPX. They stayed only for two days, they could hardly stand to talk to us, let alone look at us because we are so liberal. In most circles, we are extremely conservative, but compared to them we are flaming liberals.
I mean, we tried to wear more conservative clothing when they were here, like we didn’t wear shorts, even though the weather is over 100 degrees here in Vegas, we girls wore longer skirts to mass, we made sure that we made the local hybrid mass (they went to the SSPX mass) we didn’t bring up religion, we were more than kind, but they hardly said anything to us.
They are my mother’s siblings, yet they can hardly stand to be around her simply because she and her husband and children go to the Novus Ordo mass. They can hardly talk to her because of it. They can hardly talk to their nieces and nephews because we go to the NO mass, and when they do talk to us it is about modesty and morals. Well, I am the most conservative girl my age who I have ever met who is not in the SSPX. Just because I wear pants and shorts, and play sports, and am strong willed, and go to the NO mass, they think I am going to hell! It is sad, horribly sad.
Whenever I am away from them, I forget, and I begin to hope that someday, in my lifetime, they will return to the Church, but then when I see them and I see the intense dislike for their own sister, I realize that it would take a miracle beyond anything seen for hundreds of years for the SSPX to return to the Church. I keep praying, but news such as the news that started this thread, that does not give me hope, no, I have very little hope, I have only enough hope to keep praying.
To me, the SSPX is worse than the protestants, at least the protestants do not call themselves Catholic, and at least they do not lie and say they accept the pope when they don’t. The SSPX is worse for the Church than any protestant religion ever was because instead of fighting for the Church from within, the stradle the walls and help to destroy the Church both from within and from without. The trads in the Church are fed up with the liberal bishops, so they give in to their weaknesses and leave the Church that Christ started and join the group that separated themselves from the fullness of the truth, so the SSPX is stealing away the cream of the crop from the Church. And they are also, keeping many people who would otherwise be out helping the Church to recover from the bad bishops and priests, away from the Church, so the Church which is finally starting to build itself back up, is having trouble finding the right people to do the work in the parishes.
Most people that I meet in the NO, don’t know very much about their faith, but we don’t have anyone to teach them, the only people willing to do the job are the liberals who know even less than the students. The people who gave up the good fight should instead be in the Church fighting to restore the beauty that was almost forgotten before it is lost.
At my NO parish, the priest is trying to learn the TLM, but he is the vicar of Las Vegas, he is also a cannon lawyer, and since one of the judges for the Church (I can’t remember the exact title) had a heart attack, my priest is filling in for that job, he is also the pastor of a parish with 10,000 member families, and is in charge of the school attached to that parish. He only has one full time other priest to help him with the parish. He has so little time to sit and learn the Latin, and he is the type that would do it right if he does do it, so it will take him a while.
This is the kind of battle that is being fought! We need the trads to join together and help these lone priests, and help from within, not attack from without.
Sorry for being so long.
 
Well the FSSP would not exist - the document giving them canonical status Ecclesia Dei would not exist. If there was no rebellion done simply by not changing anything - the TLM WOULD NO LONGER EXIST - all would have been lost.

There had to have been a movement done and founded that has led to Summorum Pontificum…it would not have happened if it were not for such noise created by those who owe everything to Marcel Lefebvre.

Those on the other side are screaming to canonize Luther and his reformers for the success of the imposition of the stuff we have now.

Ken
Interesting you should mention canonizing Luther. It seems likely that if there was no Luther, there would have been no Society of Jesus, and if no Jesuits, than no etc, etc, etc…

So are we to thank Luther?

We cannot know what would have happened if the Archbishop had not disobeyed his Pope. Would Benedict love the Tridentine traditions any less? I doubt it. You and I are not God, and cannot know for sure either way.

But are we supposed to think that the only Traditionalists in the Church were SSPX?

And I cannot thank Archbishop Lefebvre because he rebelled and disobeyed. We don’t call that heroism, we call that infidelity.
 
I hope it works out.

I’m curious on one thing though. One of the things SSPX wanted was the lifting of the the excommunions. In the case of Lefebvre what difference would it make. If someone has been excommunicated and they do not repent before death then they will go to Hell. Lifting the excommunication would not change that. He can’t move from Hell to Heaven.
Ask St. Joan of Arc. The archbishop, while not canonized, I do hope is in Heaven and I’m sure he’s hand is interceding for us. Afterall, if Brother Roger is in Heaven according to this pope (not through a declaration of canonization though), why not Archbishop Lefebvre?
 
Ain’t gonna happen. Not right now at least. The SSPX would want special concessions if they were to return Home and they ain’t gonna get them. They will be completely and thoroughly subsumed by the Church if/when they return and I think their egos are still bloated with too much pride at this time for it to happen. Their fixation on the change from “for many” into “for all” is a prime example.

They aren’t low on cash, are they?
Go read a book. The Catechism of Trent teaches against the use of “for all.” This is just one problem with the New Mass, though supposidly it will be fixed. If you want egos, there are none missing at your local diocesean chancellory.
 
My Aunt and Uncle just visited me this weekend. They are both in the SSPX. They stayed only for two days, they could hardly stand to talk to us, let alone look at us because we are so liberal. In most circles, we are extremely conservative, but compared to them we are flaming liberals.
I mean, we tried to wear more conservative clothing when they were here, like we didn’t wear shorts, even though the weather is over 100 degrees here in Vegas, we girls wore longer skirts to mass, we made sure that we made the local hybrid mass (they went to the SSPX mass) we didn’t bring up religion, we were more than kind, but they hardly said anything to us.
They are my mother’s siblings, yet they can hardly stand to be around her simply because she and her husband and children go to the Novus Ordo mass. They can hardly talk to her because of it. They can hardly talk to their nieces and nephews because we go to the NO mass, and when they do talk to us it is about modesty and morals. Well, I am the most conservative girl my age who I have ever met who is not in the SSPX. Just because I wear pants and shorts, and play sports, and am strong willed, and go to the NO mass, they think I am going to hell! It is sad, horribly sad.
Whenever I am away from them, I forget, and I begin to hope that someday, in my lifetime, they will return to the Church, but then when I see them and I see the intense dislike for their own sister, I realize that it would take a miracle beyond anything seen for hundreds of years for the SSPX to return to the Church. I keep praying, but news such as the news that started this thread, that does not give me hope, no, I have very little hope, I have only enough hope to keep praying.
To me, the SSPX is worse than the protestants, at least the protestants do not call themselves Catholic, and at least they do not lie and say they accept the pope when they don’t. The SSPX is worse for the Church than any protestant religion ever was because instead of fighting for the Church from within, the stradle the walls and help to destroy the Church both from within and from without. The trads in the Church are fed up with the liberal bishops, so they give in to their weaknesses and leave the Church that Christ started and join the group that separated themselves from the fullness of the truth, so the SSPX is stealing away the cream of the crop from the Church. And they are also, keeping many people who would otherwise be out helping the Church to recover from the bad bishops and priests, away from the Church, so the Church which is finally starting to build itself back up, is having trouble finding the right people to do the work in the parishes.
Most people that I meet in the NO, don’t know very much about their faith, but we don’t have anyone to teach them, the only people willing to do the job are the liberals who know even less than the students. The people who gave up the good fight should instead be in the Church fighting to restore the beauty that was almost forgotten before it is lost.
At my NO parish, the priest is trying to learn the TLM, but he is the vicar of Las Vegas, he is also a cannon lawyer, and since one of the judges for the Church (I can’t remember the exact title) had a heart attack, my priest is filling in for that job, he is also the pastor of a parish with 10,000 member families, and is in charge of the school attached to that parish. He only has one full time other priest to help him with the parish. He has so little time to sit and learn the Latin, and he is the type that would do it right if he does do it, so it will take him a while.
This is the kind of battle that is being fought! We need the trads to join together and help these lone priests, and help from within, not attack from without.
Sorry for being so long.
I’m sorry you feel that way, but clearly some of your concerns are false (e.g. Prots being worst than the SSPX). I will keep the priest that suffered a heart attack in my prayers.
 
I have wondered if the Archbishop was fully culpable for his actions. It is tempting to think that the frailty of age might possibly have been a factor in his decisions, thus lessening or, if perhaps his mind was in some way unclear because of his advanced age, perhaps even obliterating his culpability.

It is not at all unreasonable to have sincere hope that he is in heaven, and even to expect to meet him there, though he made serious errors while on earth. The Lord is merciful, to all of us.

Interestingly enough, while I certainly don’t believe Martin Luther should be canonized (and have never heard anyone “pine” for his canonization), there have been questions concerning his mental health, in which case the culpability for his great crimes against the faith may have been mitigated or perhaps even obliterated. A mentally unstable man may not be culpable for his acions. Lord have mercy.

Perhaps we’ll share a stein of ale amongst the three of us in heaven one day. God only knows.

CC
 
My Aunt and Uncle just visited me this weekend. They are both in the SSPX. They stayed only for two days, they could hardly stand to talk to us, let alone look at us because we are so liberal. In most circles, we are extremely conservative, but compared to them we are flaming liberals.
I mean, we tried to wear more conservative clothing when they were here, like we didn’t wear shorts, even though the weather is over 100 degrees here in Vegas, we girls wore longer skirts to mass, we made sure that we made the local hybrid mass (they went to the SSPX mass) we didn’t bring up religion, we were more than kind, but they hardly said anything to us.
They are my mother’s siblings, yet they can hardly stand to be around her simply because she and her husband and children go to the Novus Ordo mass. They can hardly talk to her because of it. They can hardly talk to their nieces and nephews because we go to the NO mass, and when they do talk to us it is about modesty and morals. Well, I am the most conservative girl my age who I have ever met who is not in the SSPX. Just because I wear pants and shorts, and play sports, and am strong willed, and go to the NO mass, they think I am going to hell! It is sad, horribly sad.
Whenever I am away from them, I forget, and I begin to hope that someday, in my lifetime, they will return to the Church, but then when I see them and I see the intense dislike for their own sister, I realize that it would take a miracle beyond anything seen for hundreds of years for the SSPX to return to the Church. I keep praying, but news such as the news that started this thread, that does not give me hope, no, I have very little hope, I have only enough hope to keep praying.
To me, the SSPX is worse than the protestants, at least the protestants do not call themselves Catholic, and at least they do not lie and say they accept the pope when they don’t. The SSPX is worse for the Church than any protestant religion ever was because instead of fighting for the Church from within, the stradle the walls and help to destroy the Church both from within and from without. The trads in the Church are fed up with the liberal bishops, so they give in to their weaknesses and leave the Church that Christ started and join the group that separated themselves from the fullness of the truth, so the SSPX is stealing away the cream of the crop from the Church. And they are also, keeping many people who would otherwise be out helping the Church to recover from the bad bishops and priests, away from the Church, so the Church which is finally starting to build itself back up, is having trouble finding the right people to do the work in the parishes.
Most people that I meet in the NO, don’t know very much about their faith, but we don’t have anyone to teach them, the only people willing to do the job are the liberals who know even less than the students. The people who gave up the good fight should instead be in the Church fighting to restore the beauty that was almost forgotten before it is lost.
At my NO parish, the priest is trying to learn the TLM, but he is the vicar of Las Vegas, he is also a cannon lawyer, and since one of the judges for the Church (I can’t remember the exact title) had a heart attack, my priest is filling in for that job, he is also the pastor of a parish with 10,000 member families, and is in charge of the school attached to that parish. He only has one full time other priest to help him with the parish. He has so little time to sit and learn the Latin, and he is the type that would do it right if he does do it, so it will take him a while.
This is the kind of battle that is being fought! We need the trads to join together and help these lone priests, and help from within, not attack from without.
Sorry for being so long.
Sounds like your relatives aren’t being very kind about all of this. I’m sorry you are having a hard time.

It’s obviously none of my business, but would you mind sharing why your family and your mother’s family go to the OF? Is it out of necessity, or preference?

Just curious.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top