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wanner47
Guest
Amen!
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PrayforMallory
Guest
Amen.I think this thread has reached it’s limit on charity. It is so sad that people are not humble or Christ-like enough to treat others with the charity we are required as Christians to show everyone.
Pride is the gravest of sins.
Let us all humbly pray that SSPX and the Holy See can be reconciled.
And let us all humbly pray that we can be reconciled with each other, through Christ who loves us.
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PrayforMallory
Guest
Yeah I’m quitting. There are people I enjoy debating with, like Ethelzguy and Pnewton, Jreducation, etc., there are also other trads I learn from and who are also reasonable people, and then there are those that wanna call names like Spiller, and accuse people of following Satan.I wanted to get on here and smart off with the same kind of venom, and did on one post (Nascar Christianity comment), but it didn’t feel good, and wasn’t right.
For the record, I’m not a fanatic or some freaky cultist. I don’t have anything against anyone or any liturgy, nor do I follow Satan. I love Latin, beauty, our Church’s history, and every single thing about Roman Catholicism.
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DeusEratVerbum
Guest
I am deeply sorry that I offended you. Please forgive me. It’s very easy to get carried away thanks to the anonymity of the Internet.Deus, I hope you don’t go around in public calling other Catholics “neoconservatives/neocons”. When I read that word on these forums, I feel personally insulted, because that is a blanket insult and it falls on me, too. I find it to be very hurtful, even though I have not said one bad word about Catholics like yourself.
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Sepharad
Guest
I wonder if message forums would keep having these kinds of problems if posters were required to use their full real names and locations.
I’m on a list where that is the case, and we never have a single problem!
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DonaNobis_Pacem
Guest
Deus, I accept your apology. Even though that word is often not directed right at me personally, it’s difficult not to take it that way because I fall into that “category”. I consider myself Catholic, not simply because of my Mass preference or what devotions I like, but by virtue of my Baptism into Holy Mother Church and being brought up with its teachings. I don’t like to categorize myself or other Catholics.
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Timothysis
Guest
From the sspx website, under New Articles:
" OUGHT PRIESTS OF THE CONCILIAR CHURCH TO BE “RE-ORDAINED” WHEN THEY COME TO TRADITION?"
" CAN OBEDIENCE OBLIGE US TO DISOBEY?"
“THIS ARTICLE SUMMARIZES WHAT THE BATTLE OVER THE MASS IS ALL ABOUT: THE PURITY OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH”
Yeah boy…there’s some rational thought , for you!!!
" OUGHT PRIESTS OF THE CONCILIAR CHURCH TO BE “RE-ORDAINED” WHEN THEY COME TO TRADITION?"
" CAN OBEDIENCE OBLIGE US TO DISOBEY?"
“THIS ARTICLE SUMMARIZES WHAT THE BATTLE OVER THE MASS IS ALL ABOUT: THE PURITY OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH”
Yeah boy…there’s some rational thought , for you!!!
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ethelzguy
Guest
'Scuse Me?
Just because I haven’t experienced the same things you have doesn’t make me a liar.
And from your post #110…I couldn’t really care less. I have zero respect for the poster in question.
I’ll be 71 in just a few weeks. I’m really not concerned whether or not some young buck “respects” me at this point in my life. Sorry 'bout that…
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
The form of liturgy used can be a sign of unity between two churches - but that does not mean that liturgical unity is a proof of communion between them. For example, there are High Anglicans who use a translation of the 1962 Mass - yet they are not in communion with Catholics who use it.
As for the Revised Missal, it is not perfect, but no form of worship is; including the 1962 form of the Mass. More importantly, it is a dogmatic fact that a particular missal provides a form of the Liturgy sufficient for use as a means of worship.If it were not - if the authorities in the Church could provide the Church or a very large part of it with a text that could not be used as a valid form of the Church’s worship - there would be extremely serious consequences; for, in this case, most of the Church would have been misled by those who are most responsible for Divine worship: the bishops, including the Pope. And if they could do that, for almost 40 years, & be so mistaken, then the Church’s bishops, Pope included, have misled almost all the Church in the most serious manner. If so - what is the point of listening to a group of men who, by this reasoning, are totally incompetent & useless at the task they are supposed to be qualified for by God Himself ? If they can be wrong on so important an issue for so long, maybe they have misled the Church or most of it on other issues.
IOW - to deny the RM is fit for for use by Catholics for Catholic worship, is to undermine the Church completely. That is the logic of that position - it is very destructive, & very far-reaching.
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ethelzguy
Guest
Nah, dont’ quit. Just don’t take things so personally.
I’ve had spirited debates and discussions with lotsa folks here, yourself included. Just don’t let it get personal. I have fully agreed, and heatedly disagreed with the same person(s) many times on different issues.
Good debate is healthy for learning. It is when people get personal about it that you lose the opportunity to learn.
If you are discussing/debating the ISSUES, then the people will move in and out, and you will find yourself agreeing and disagreeing with the same person, but on different topics.
On the other hand, you will rarely, but occasionally, run into those who will disagree with you, no matter what you say. Don’t let those get you down.
TBL
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KathleenElsie
Guest
Amen to this.
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scylla
Guest
I am not sure if this is really on topic or very charitable to the SSPX.
Those sound like perfectly normal articles when you look at the point of view of many Catholics. Many are worried when they see Priests who do not seem to believe in the Eucharist, who preach against the faith, who exhibit behavior which is very strange and are witnesses to a whole lot of scandal.
Now in some areas there are some good Priests and Bishops so this might seem a little out of place, so I can understand how it might be weird to see such articles. But in areas where it seems the faith has been abandoned for innovation, it is perfectly understandable.
Now why don’t we stick to the subject and all support a unity. I know it can be scary for those who play fast and loose with the faith, and for those who on the more Orthodox side. Both sides need to seek unity and a charity toward understanding each other.
In Christ
Scylla
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SJP
Guest
Don’t quit… The forum can get heated, but I believe that the majority of the members post in good faith.
Besides, it’s a great time to be a traditionalist! Don’t let a few “spirit of VII” types bring you down. Share the joy of these tradition-friendly times!
The future is friendly
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EddieArent
Guest
No one (officially speaking, I’m not talking of some closet sedevacantist priest in Iceland) in the SSPX is saying that all of the Novus Ordo Masses is invalid. On the contrary! The SSPX defends the Novus Ordo re: validity against the sedevacantists when all the proper elements take place; e.g. valid form, ordination of priest, intention of priest, and and valid matter for the Sacrament. THIS HOLDS TRUE FOR ANY RITE. If the SSPX would say the Novus Ordo is all invalid then all former Novus Ordo priests that joined the Society would have to be ordained, etc. since they were truly layman and not priests. It is only on a case by case basis where some priests are given conditional ordination.
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bobzills
Guest
As far as I know, there is no obligation to obey a command which would lead one astray. I think that this is quite reasonable, unlike your post.
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PrayforMallory
Guest
Well, I think you’re right, and I apologize to Spiller for calling him out like that.Nah, dont’ quit. Just don’t take things so personally.
I’ve had spirited debates and discussions with lotsa folks here, yourself included. Just don’t let it get personal. I have fully agreed, and heatedly disagreed with the same person(s) many times on different issues.
Good debate is healthy for learning. It is when people get personal about it that you lose the opportunity to learn.
If you are discussing/debating the ISSUES, then the people will move in and out, and you will find yourself agreeing and disagreeing with the same person, but on different topics.
On the other hand, you will rarely, but occasionally, run into those who will disagree with you, no matter what you say. Don’t let those get you down.
TBL
I just don’t think the ad hominems do any good. I don’t deny the validity of the OF, never have, I’ve never said that people who go aren’t good Catholics, etc.
I didn’t know about the EF a year ago, and then I went and it changed everything for the better. We started blessing the food at restaurants, praying as a family, etc., things which didn’t happen before. It was a big kick in the pants.
I think it’s good people are going to Church, regardless of which Mass. That’s why I want there to be a reconciliation.
When it comes to SSPX, all we hear about is whatever comes out of Williamson’s mouth, good or bad. We don’t ever stop and think that there are 3 year olds at those Masses, or poor people, or people enduring marriage crises, etc. It’s like they are all card-carrying enemies of the Church. In reality, I’m sure some are sick of sermons on Vat II. I’m sure most just like the Mass and don’t even think about the theology behind all these disputes. And yet they are demonized.
One time I watched a sedevacantist video, done by Most Holy Family Monastery, and there was this picture of a woman drinking from the Chalice, and it was one of the pictures they used to emphasize the evils of the “New Mass.” It upset me, because that person was obviously being demonized for no reason. Even if it represented some sin, she wasn’t responsible for that.
That’s why I feel like it’s completely necessary that we stick to the ideas, not the people in question. The SSPX, unlike the other traditional orders, doesn’t do a very good job of all that. Whatever admirable traits they have, they seriously need to deal with their rhetoric.
If the SSPX rejects this agreement, I don’t really see how anyone could support them. The basic tenets of this agreement are “Don
't be jerks!” If the SSPX turns this down, I’ll be done arguing for them.
That said, I think they will accept. How could they turn this down?
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PrayforMallory
Guest
Yes I agree. A great time to be Catholic.Don’t quit… The forum can get heated, but I believe that the majority of the members post in good faith.
Besides, it’s a great time to be a traditionalist! Don’t let a few “spirit of VII” types bring you down. Share the joy of these tradition-friendly times!
The future is friendly
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HOPEFUL_IN_UK
Guest
Thank you for your post. You sound like a really fantastic young lady. Again, you’ve confirmed and summed up everything I find upsetting about the SSPX. What you’ve said echoes a friend of mine over here who has left the SSPX after being raised in it. To hear her talk about it, she has escaped a cult.Someone said that I was young and loyal to my parents, that is true. I am 19 and I am extremely loyal to my parents as I should be. But that does not mean that I am exaggerating or lying. My mother new when she left the SSPX, when it left the Church, that her family would stay and that there would be a rift “They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother”, but she knew that she had to follow Rome. “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
It was my mother’s sister who said that she could not fathom why God had given my mother six children only so that she could lead them to hell. It was my mother’s sister who, when my sister and I went over to Germany to help her during her last month of pregnancy with her four other children all under age 6, who wouldn’t take us to the local mass that was in union with Rome, so we had to walk over a mile each way, even though she had promised my mother that she would take us.
We do not prefer the NO, we have seen many abuses, my father has corrected many priests and choir directors, we have walked out of many masses; but we know that it is our duty to stay with Rome, so we continue to fight. That is why my father is insisting that all of us get a Catholic liberal arts education before we get our degrees, he wants us to have the college education to back up our words when we confront these people who cause the abuses.
I’m not looking for sympathy, I have dealt with it all my life, I am just trying to show the truth of the situation. My SSPX family lives in St. Marys, KS, that is one of the SSPX’s main hubs in the USA. Most of the people in St. Marys have the same attitude as my aunts and uncles and grandparents. When we lived there, none of my mother’s old friends from when she was in the SSPX, would talk to us because we went to the FSSP mass, or the NO, and because my mom wore pants and shorts. It isn’t a myth, this is real, though I know it sounds like something out of some weird movie.
They are like the Pharisees, they are so concerned with the rules, they forget the spirit of the law. They are so concerned with making sure they don’t even associate with people outside the SSPX, that they forget that person is their own flesh and blood. It is really strange.
I am just writing this because I feel that I have a unique perspective of the SSPX.
I prefer the EF, but I go to the OF because it is the right thing to do. I have family in the SSPX and my parents long to give in and live the easy life in the SSPX, but instead they have taught us to argue and prove ourselves to priests, bishops, and anyone else who crosses the line. Until I was 9 I attended mostly FSSP, then EWTN’s hybrid, then a really reverent NO, then now in Vegas, it is a weekly struggle to find a good mass. I have family in the SSPX, I have lived in a SSPX town, my grandfather owns a business that employs only SSPX members, I have a mother who was disowned by family and friends simply because she goes to a mass in a different language.
I have a unique perspective, it is a true perspective, I wish there was more hope for the SSPX, but they are so stubbornly wrong.
I said earlier that my priest was trying to learn Latin, I was corrected, he must just be trying to learn the EF, sorry I was just told that he was studying and trying to learn so he could say a EF.
Have a good day everyone, continue to pray for more workers in the vineyard.
ETA: I wanted to add that I am very much in awe of your family’s fight to remain faithful. I know what you mean by taking the easy route and joining the SSPX. I am lonely here in Glasgow because I don’t know any other orthodox Catholic families. I’m sure they’re out there, but I haven’t found them. (Meaning: I have not met them and recognized them. For all I know, they’re right under my nose and I shake their hands at the Peace all the time.) We attend the diocesan EF in Glasgow, and we’re usually the only people there with young children. I hear that there are many young families attending the SSPX chapel. I think many of them also homeschool, and I would love to find a support network for that. Oh! How I would love to find a community of faithful Catholic families to be friends with! But, my husband and I know that that is not the way to go. We go to the EF when we can, and we try to tolerate the OF as best as we can when we have to.
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PrayforMallory
Guest
I might add that your family sounds fantastic as well.
Keep up the good fight with the Diocesan TLM!
BTW Scotland rules.
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HOPEFUL_IN_UK
Guest
Thanks!
I’m not sure how I feel about Scotland. This is not a fun place to be a Catholic. I sure do encourage those of you in the US to appreciate what you’ve got!
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