SSPX Crisis

[Aramis]

This is the kind of comment that boils the oil for many religious communities and other societies of apostolic life. It’s as if they did not exist without the graces of the SSPX.

Have we forgotten that long before Summorum Pontificum we already had the Ecclesia Dei Institutes and several religious orders and congregations that celebrate the Tridentine Form? Don’t you value those people at all?

Norbertines
Franciscans of the Immaculate
FSSP
ICRSS
Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer
Canons of St. John Cantius
Carmelite Monks (not the friars)

There are more, but I can’t recall the names. None of these communities are part of the SSPX, nor were they ever part of the SSPX. They preserved the Tridentine form on their own.

Several priests of the Western Dominican Province were preserving the Dominican Latin Mass, as well. I grew up knowing one using it for private masses… Friar John Fearon, OP, DD. (Of eternal memory.)

 

[HumbleCatholic]

JReducation:

Until the Holy See has a letter from the SSPX in its hand with the SSPX seal and the Superior General’s signature, the Vatican is still waiting and the SSPX has not in fact rejected or accepted the offer.

The $20.00 question is why hasn’t the SSPX leadership not sent a letter saying what the Internet claims the general chapter decided?

We can’t say that the SSPX was holding out for Pope Benedict to abdicate in the hope that the next pope would accept its terms. No one knew that the Holy Father was going to abdicate. One could say that out of respect and even affection for the Holy Father, they find it difficult to decline, but their constituency is making it difficult to accept. The leadership is stuck. My only observation here is that when one is stuck, it is better to say nothing to the public until you get unstuck.

The answer to your question is really another question. Why hasn’t the SSPX put its response on paper and sent it in a formal letter to the Vatican?

Thank you Brother, for your answer. I did not realize SSPX Society has not given the Vatican an answer! Then Pope Benedict announced his reignation. I imagine they were as shocked as the entire world was!

Perhaps they were ready to give the Vatican a letter, and then the Pope resigned. Now they just have to wait like all the rest of us.
And, of course, this is just speculation.

What is really sad to me is: now they may have to start all over. I just pray they will come to their senses like I did, and just do what God is asking them to do through the Head of the Church,
the Pope.

What made me “wake up” and go away from the independent chapel was when Pope Benedict XVI resigned. The church I was attending had no Bishop! I had been BLIND all those years…and now I completely understand how wrong I was! Unfortunately, that church thinks they are better than the Pope! And on top of that, that church has “The Board” who makes all the decisions. Oh I was so very BLIND!

The other church I had belonged to was SSPX. Again, they are just as wrong as the independent church, but they have “bishops” instead of “The Board”.

 

[Genesis315]

The Agatha Christie indult restricted the TLM to special occasions and only for special groups. In other words, it treated the TLM as some kind of ancient artifact that was to be taken out and examined infrequently by a select group and then put back into its case. However, I have no idea how often the TLM was actually celebrated under this indult.

The indult of 1984 produced virtually no results as local ordinaries refused requests for the TLM.

But this means the Church gave out permissions, which would have gone to the SSPX too–instead it went to the FSSP. Again, saying we wouldn’t have groups like the FSSP without the SSPX is like saying we wouldn’t have Eastern Catholics without the schism Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Aramis]

Thank you Brother, for your answer. I did not realize SSPX Society has not given the Vatican an answer! Then Pope Benedict announced his reignation. I imagine they were as shocked as the entire world was!

If the press is to be believed, HH Benedict gae them an ultimatum as a body corporate - and they failed to give answer in time. Unless the new pope changes that (which I have my doubts of), the SSPX as a body is done-for.

The individual priests may come into union, but by failing to give answer in the allotted time, the default answer is “No, we won’t come back”…

… and the new pope can choose to extend the deadline, or to accept that corporate non-answer as a schismatic act and booth the SSPX as a whole.

But no matter the status of the body corporate of those of schismatic mindset, the individual choice to repent and reform is ALWAYS an option.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you Brother, for your answer. I did not realize SSPX Society has not given the Vatican an answer! Then Pope Benedict announced his reignation. I imagine they were as shocked as the entire world was!

Perhaps they were ready to give the Vatican a letter, and then the Pope resigned. Now they just have to wait like all the rest of us.
And, of course, this is just speculation.

What is really sad to me is: now they may have to start all over. I just pray they will come to their senses like I did, and just do what God is asking them to do through the Head of the Church,
the Pope.

What made me “wake up” and go away from the independent chapel was when Pope Benedict XVI resigned. The church I was attending had no Bishop! I had been BLIND all those years…and now I completely understand how wrong I was! Unfortunately, that church thinks they are better than the Pope! And on top of that, that church has “The Board” who makes all the decisions. Oh I was so very BLIND!

The other church I had belonged to was SSPX. Again, they are just as wrong as the independent church, but they have “bishops” instead of “The Board”.

I doubt very much that they will begin from scratch. Remember that any cardinal who is elected pope already knows this issue very well. It has been on the front burner for years. Also, the CDF is not going anywhere. The dialogue was with the CDF. Archbishop Mueller has said that he will not wait forever. I really think he means it.

Archbishop DiNoia tried to extend an olive branch in the form of a personal letter, because if he had extended it as an official letter from the CDF/ED his head would have rolled. Even though the good Archbishop took a risk sending that letter inviting them to discern, rather than fight about theology, they did not even acknowledge his letter, which is sad.

My real fear is that the next pope will simply do one of two things:

a. Jetison the SSPX as it did the Old Catholics.

or

b. Ignore it, wait for the Society to ordain another bishop and then hit them and anyone who supports them with an excommunication.

If “b” happens, there is hope as long as there are no more ordinations of bishops.

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

Well, we think this sometimes. But really it could be entirely possible that if it weren’t for the open rebellion of the SSPX, especially the episcopal ordinations and beyond, that some of the other Bishops of the world would have been less resistant to allowing the TLM in their dioceses eventually.

The thing is, you never really know “what if”.

The TLM was never forbidden. It was restricted to the discretion of the local ordinary. Padre Pio celebrated it until he died and he was part of the post-concilliar church.

 

[HumbleCatholic]

I doubt very much that they will begin from scratch. Remember that any cardinal who is elected pope already knows this issue very well. It has been on the front burner for years. Also, the CDF is not going anywhere. The dialogue was with the CDF. Archbishop Mueller has said that he will not wait forever. I really think he means it.

Archbishop DiNoia tried to extend an olive branch in the form of a personal letter, because if he had extended it as an official letter from the CDF/ED his head would have rolled. Even though the good Archbishop took a risk sending that letter inviting them to discern, rather than fight about theology, they did not even acknowledge his letter, which is sad.

My real fear is that the next pope will simply do one of two things:

a. Jetison the SSPX as it did the Old Catholics.

or

b. Ignore it, wait for the Society to ordain another bishop and then hit them and anyone who supports them with an excommunication.

If “b” happens, there is hope as long as there are no more ordinations of bishops.

Thank you Brother JR, for your answer.

Here is a very scary thought! What if the new Pope puts an end to all the SSPX and independent churches and all members are excomminicated?

I believe with my whole heart the Holy Spirit led me out of that independent Church at the right time! My heart had a “pierced” feeling in it. I just left and walked away from it, and I won’t be going back.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you Brother JR, for your answer.

Here is a very scary thought! What if the new Pope puts an end to all the SSPX and independent churches and all members are excomminicated?

I believe with my whole heart the Holy Spirit led me out of that independent Church at the right time! My heart had a “pierced” feeling in it. I just left and walked away from it, and I won’t be going back.

He can declare them to be in schism and everyone who follows them. He can also prohibit communion at their masses, since they would no longer be Catholic.

Will this happen? I doubt it very much. The Church is not in the business of damming souls. She’s in the business of saving souls. The only way to save them is to bring them into communion, albeit ever so slowly.

If I’m reading the tea leaves correctly, this communion has a price tag.

1. Along with accepting everything that Pope Benedict said they must accept, Vatican II, etc . . . I believe that they are going to have to do several other things that they may not like.

a. Agree not to speak about Jews and Judaism again, as is the case for every other religious order. No one else is allowed to under penalty of grave sin.

b. Agree not to involve the laity any longer. They will not discuss their concerns with the laity, but only with the Vatican. This too is demanded of everyone else.

c. Accept that it’s not their role to fix the problems in the Church or to denounce them, but that role belongs to the CDF. Their role is pastoral.

d. Accept whomever the pope appoints as the head of the prelature.

e. Accept that Bishop Williamson is no longer a Catholic bishop. (Not my words, but those of the CDF and of Pope Benedict in one of his interviews about Bishop Williamson)

f. Lay aside the theological and doctrinal debate and agree to discern Christ’s will for his Church, together with the Vatican.

These are all doable. None of them are impossible. I think that they will not happen overnight. Again, if I’m reading the tea leaves correctly, these are going to be added to the list of demands that the Vatican will make on the SSPX. The Vatican has already made these statements in isolation.

 

[crazzeto]

I doubt very much that they will begin from scratch. Remember that any cardinal who is elected pope already knows this issue very well. It has been on the front burner for years. Also, the CDF is not going anywhere. The dialogue was with the CDF. Archbishop Mueller has said that he will not wait forever. I really think he means it.

Archbishop DiNoia tried to extend an olive branch in the form of a personal letter, because if he had extended it as an official letter from the CDF/ED his head would have rolled. Even though the good Archbishop took a risk sending that letter inviting them to discern, rather than fight about theology, they did not even acknowledge his letter, which is sad.

My real fear is that the next pope will simply do one of two things:

a. Jetison the SSPX as it did the Old Catholics.

or

b. Ignore it, wait for the Society to ordain another bishop and then hit them and anyone who supports them with an excommunication.

If “b” happens, there is hope as long as there are no more ordinations of bishops.

Or, God willing. The next Pope will be of the same mind as his predecessor.

Incidently, for anyone other faithful who wish to be proactive as we can (as I do). There is an “Adopt a Cardinal” website in which you (name removed by moderator)ut your name and email, then it spits out an cardinal for whom we can pray for during conclave. It is endorsed here by Farther Ed Tomlinson

tunbridgewells-ordinariate.com/blog/?p=4897

official site.
adoptacardinal.org/

 

[HumbleCatholic]

Dear Brother JR:

Now I am really confused!

The independent church I was attending:  the pastor(s) of that church are both Franciscan priests and one of them was ordained in Italy.  And, unfortunately, I do not know any more than that.  I simply went to Mass every Sunday to receive our Lord Jesus in the Holy Eucharist for almost 5 years.  

I do know the 2 priests live at the rectory for apprx 3 months, then go back to their other churches-- one goes to Pennsylvania for 3 months and the other to Louisiana for 3 months.  

So every 3 months, 2 priests would alternate in the year to take care of the church.

My question is:  IF these two priests are under their superior to be able to say the Latin Mass because their superior has the authority from Christ himself instead of a bishop, are they right in being independent from the Pope?  Your statement:  **"The local superior and prior had been given authority by Christ himself to command obedience." **

Also, this church calls itself "independent".  Is it possible that since they are Franciscans, they THINK they are doing right?

You see, this particular church has no Bishop!  And, the actual Bishop of that particular Diocese told one of the parishioners that this particular church is in SCHISM! 

This is all so confusing.
[/quote]

 

[JReducation]

Dear Brother JR:

Now I am really confused!

The independent church I was attending:  the pastor(s) of that church are both Franciscan priests and one of them was ordained in Italy.  And, unfortunately, I do not know any more than that.  I simply went to Mass every Sunday to receive our Lord Jesus in the Holy Eucharist for almost 5 years.  

I do know the 2 priests live at the rectory for apprx 3 months, then go back to their other churches-- one goes to Pennsylvania for 3 months and the other to Louisiana for 3 months.  

So every 3 months, 2 priests would alternate in the year to take care of the church.

My question is:  IF these two priests are under their superior to be able to say the Latin Mass because their superior has the authority from Christ himself instead of a bishop, are they right in being independent from the Pope?  Your statement:  **"The local superior and prior had been given authority by Christ himself to command obedience." **

Also, this church calls itself “independent”. Is it possible that since they are Franciscans, they THINK they are doing right?

You see, this particular church has no Bishop! And, the actual Bishop of that particular Diocese told one of the parishioners that this particular church is in SCHISM!

This is all so confusing.

If one is a Franciscan, one is not independent from the pope. Franciscans owe obedience to the pope. Any Franciscan that fails to obey the pope is sinning against the rule. The rule commands obedience to the pope.

The exempt religious orders are exempt from the bishops, not the pope. However, there is a caveat here. There are times when a parish is erected by the bishop, not by an order. The bishop may ask an order to run the parish. In such cases, the religious who work at that parish must comply with the bishop in all matters that pertain to the parish, because it’s not their parish. They only administer it for the bishop.

Today, there are very few parishes left that were erected before the diocese was erected. Those houses do belong to the order that erected them and the superior is the highest authority, beneath the pope, always.

We have more institutions that are autonomous than we have parishes. Most parishes are erected by bishops. In places like California, Quebec, Europe and South America, there are parishes that existed before the dioceses. These were erected by the orders.

However, no religious is exempt from obedience to the pope.

 

[HumbleCatholic]

HumbleCatholic;10437183:

Thank you, Dear Brother JR.

I see that I have more research to do. Perhaps I have been wrong about the church I just left. Perhaps the Franciscan priests are valid and are under Rome, and I may have jumped to conclusions.

I will return as soon as I find that answer.

Jesus, I love you. Please guide me. Amen.

 

[JReducation]

JReducation;10437479:

HumbleCatholic;10437183:

Thank you, Dear Brother JR.

I see that I have more research to do. Perhaps I have been wrong about the church I just left. Perhaps the Franciscan priests are valid and are under Rome, and I may have jumped to conclusions.

I will return as soon as I find that answer.

Jesus, I love you. Please guide me. Amen.

If they are functioning without the permission of their superior, then they are not in communion with the Holy Father. No one can function without the permission of his immediate superior. There is a chain of command that one must not violate.

Having said that, there are some religious out there who are doing their own thing. These are not in communion with the Church.

The question is whether or not these Franciscans have permission from their superior. One has to be careful with the answer.

“My superior knows” does not mean that “My superior approves”. Superiors know many things of which they don’t approve. However, when dealing with adults, one can hardly take them over one’s knee and spank them. One can suspend and impose other penalties, but those who are bent on going their way will do so regardless.

 

[1AugustSon7]

However, no religious is exempt from obedience to the pope.

Ultimately, no Catholic is. He carries the keys after all. The implications of that are tremendous.

 

[JReducation]

Ultimately, no Catholic is. He carries the keys after all. The implications of that are tremendous.

 

[HumbleCatholic]

To Brother JR, 1August7, and Lormar

With a happy heart, I found the answer I was looking for. The church I spoke of in my posts is under Rome, even though we have no bishop—through the fact our dear priest is a Fransiscan! THANK YOU BROTHER JR! If I had not met you, I would not have ever realized this.

Even though I missed TLM this Sunday, I did go to a Novus Order Mass. My preference is the holy, sacred Latin Mass.

I will not be posting anymore on this site or forum because too many people get banned for saying the truth.

And August, I am leaving the group. I will continue to pray for all of you.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, I love you, save souls.

 

[Dom_Desiderius]

I will not be posting anymore on this site or forum because too many people get banned for saying the truth.

The truth is hard to accept . Some of what is passes for the truth today, may prove itself to be a novelty and gimmick in the future.

Put it this way, from 1970 to 2000 when did anyone ever mention or discuss the FSSPX? The fact that a comment on them receives nearly 100 responses is interesting. As the hollywood people say, there is no such thing as bad publicity. I could say personally that a few of the previous comments on this post remind me of a soap opera, but I’m sure they are heartfelt. Most SSPX parishes are going about their business as usual and have done so for the last 2 years.

In the any Church where different factions, fashions and sects spring up from within, it is natural that there comes to be misunderstandings and disagreements. Different people place different emphasis on different things. satan has a way of dividing people apart that the Holy Spirit must bring together.

It is frankly quite impractical to say certain things here that can be said elsewhere, and vice versa. We have to know who we are dealing with to know what we can say without causing too much friction. Catholic Answers forum is not the Rorate Caeli blog or Fisheasters forum.

In the age of the internet people who have things to say which are viewed as too controversial, uncharitable or wrong simply go to other forums where like minded people congregate.

Perhaps the reason why people here appear to be banned for telling the truth is because they do not understand the rules and politics of social groups.
This forum is a good forum, it represents as best it can the diverse views from within the largest church on earth which has nearly the most credible claim of being the original.

**In a situation of radical, revolutionary events there always appear people who start to divide life into ‘before’ and ‘after.’ They want to start counting only from this new point as if everything that happened before had no meaning. When the future Protestants proclaimed the Reformation, I do not think they knew it would lead to the separation of the Western Church into two big camps. They did not realize it, they just acted. And they began to divide those around them into the healthy ones – those who accepted the Reformation – and the unhealthy, sick ones – the followers of Pope.

Moreover, history repeats itself: the same is happening now around the Second Vatican Council within the Roman Catholic Church**. There are people who did not accept its decisions and people who consider it to be some kind of a starting point. And everybody reasons along those lines. A simple example: if in a conversation, someone mentions ‘council’ without any additional details, everybody automatically assumes that they are talking about the Second Vatican Council.

• Fr. Gabriel Bunge.

 

[Dom_Desiderius]

One thing we can all agree on is that there has been for the most part, an increase in problems in the life of the Church since 1965, whether the SSPX is more a part of a solution or part of the problem seems to be an open question…

As a historian whenever I go into museums the majority of connection I see from sacred art and objects is connected more precisely and directly to the pre-1962 form of the Roman rite Latin Liturgy. 99% of the saints of the church experienced the mass and divine office in the older form. Today in the year 2013, according to surveys and statistics, whereever the older form of the mass is celebrated there is growth, whether the church celebrating it is in good standing or not.

Even as a traditional catholic I never wrote off the novus ordo and average parish as absolutely wrong or in any way invalid. People are people. Good people are in all churches to some extent. People have to be more sophisticated and wise enough to realize this. All groups have their shortcomings and strengthes. All bishops also have shortcomings and strengthes.

 

[Aramis]

One thing we can all agree on is that there has been for the most part, an increase in problems in the life of the Church since 1965, whether the SSPX is more a part of a solution or part of the problem seems to be an open question…

Actually, no, we can NOT all agree on that.

I can agree that many are more aware of the problems now, due to both more pervasive and more invasive media presence, and also less respect for privacy. A number of the problems people attribute to the post 1965 period are in fact longstanding systemic issues going back 100+ years.

Take the sexual abuse scandals. Many of the prosecutions now are not new problem priests… many of them are, in fact, well known problem priests who had been abusing children for decades. Not a few of them were individuals protected by civil authority ignoring the complaints about them as far back as the 1940’s. There is plenty of inquisitorial and civil evidence that the issue goes back further, but was not pursued by civil nor criminal law until the 1970’s and on.

Changes to the liturgy also were not new… but fewer noticed them. My mother’s missal from her time in the convent has penciled in annotations (with dates) of changes to the liturgy in the late 1950’s.

 

[Lormar]

To Brother JR, 1August7, and Lormar

With a happy heart, I found the answer I was looking for. The church I spoke of in my posts is under Rome, even though we have no bishop—through the fact our dear priest is a Fransiscan! THANK YOU BROTHER JR! If I had not met you, I would not have ever realized this.

Even though I missed TLM this Sunday, I did go to a Novus Order Mass. My preference is the holy, sacred Latin Mass.

I will not be posting anymore on this site or forum because too many people get banned for saying the truth.

And August, I am leaving the group. I will continue to pray for all of you.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, I love you, save souls.

Too sad for words, but I am not surprised. It is hard to break away. I know this very well.