SSPX Crisis

[Catholic4Jesus]

Much of what I’m getting ready to say may not be correct. I’m just goig off of what I’ve been hearing about the SSPX lately. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

 From what I've heard, the SSPX is in real serious turmoil right now. They're divided amongst themselves. There are those who agree with Bp. Fellay and his desire to return to Rome. Other however, disagree with him and side with the other two bishops who want to remain seperated from Rome. They say, "Rome has apostacized from the faith. And they'll never regain it again. We do not want to rejoin with the Modernists. We're the remnant of the true Church. Rome has screwed up."
 In fact, Bp. Williamson (who is 'in my mind' the most radical non-Sedevacantist Traditionalist out there) is so against Bp. Fellay's decision, that he started speaking out against him in some of his homilies (or sermons) despite the fact that Bp. Fellay is his superior. Bp Fellay then told him to shape up or he would face consequences. Bp. Williamson wouldn't heed the warning and kept doing what he was doing and then got suspended and was therefore, not allowed to publically say Mass, preach, confirm, ordain, or administer other Sacraments and yet he still kept doing it anyway. It's interesting how history repeats itself. Just like their found Archbishop Lefebvre wouldn't heed the warnings from the Pope to quit doing what he was doing and got in trouble for it, so is Bp. Williamson. 
 And again, just like Abp. Lefebvre did it because he felt that "Pope Paul VI was in error", Bp. Williamson is also doing it because he feels that Bp Fellay "is in error." And after illicitly functioning as a bishop under suspension, he was later expelled from the SSPX and is now just an independent bishop. In fact, several members of the SSPX left the society to go follow him because they agreed with his position. It's amazing how a group that is outside of full-communion with Christ is being destroyed, just like most, if not all of the 25,000+ Protestant denominations out there who are at odds with each other doctrincally and are falling apart. Traditionalism (SSPX and Sedevacantist breed) is really nothing more than a special breed of Protestantism despite how anti-Protestant they claim themselves to be.
 Our Lord said that we shall know them by their fruits. And that every house divided against itself will fall. We see their fruits and their fruits are far from good. We need to  pray for them. We need to pray for the rejoining of the SSPX to Rome, we need to pray especially for Bp. Williamson and others like him whose hearts are so hardened that it almost seems impossible for them to wake up.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Much of what I’m getting ready to say may not be correct. I’m just goig off of what I’ve been hearing about the SSPX lately. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

 From what I've heard, the SSPX is in real serious turmoil right now. They're divided amongst themselves. There are those who agree with Bp. Fellay and his desire to return to Rome. Other however, disagree with him and side with the other two bishops who want to remain seperated from Rome. They say, "Rome has apostacized from the faith. And they'll never regain it again. We do not want to rejoin with the Modernists. We're the remnant of the true Church. Rome has screwed up."
 In fact, Bp. Williamson (who is 'in my mind' the most radical non-Sedevacantist Traditionalist out there) is so against Bp. Fellay's decision, that he started speaking out against him in some of his homilies (or sermons) despite the fact that Bp. Fellay is his superior. Bp Fellay then told him to shape up or he would face consequences. Bp. Williamson wouldn't heed the warning and kept doing what he was doing and then got suspended and was therefore, not allowed to publically say Mass, preach, confirm, ordain, or administer other Sacraments and yet he still kept doing it anyway. It's interesting how history repeats itself. Just like their found Archbishop Lefebvre wouldn't heed the warnings from the Pope to quit doing what he was doing and got in trouble for it, so is Bp. Williamson. 
 And again, just like Abp. Lefebvre did it because he felt that "Pope Paul VI was in error", Bp. Williamson is also doing it because he feels that Bp Fellay "is in error." And after illicitly functioning as a bishop under suspension, he was later expelled from the SSPX and is now just an independent bishop. In fact, several members of the SSPX left the society to go follow him because they agreed with his position. It's amazing how a group that is outside of full-communion with Christ is being destroyed, just like most, if not all of the 25,000+ Protestant denominations out there who are at odds with each other doctrincally and are falling apart. Traditionalism (SSPX and Sedevacantist breed) is really nothing more than a special breed of Protestantism despite how anti-Protestant they claim themselves to be.
 Our Lord said that we shall know them by their fruits. And that every house divided against itself will fall. We see their fruits and their fruits are far from good. We need to  pray for them. We need to pray for the rejoining of the SSPX to Rome, we need to pray especially for Bp. Williamson and others like him whose hearts are so hardened that it almost seems impossible for them to wake up.

In my opinion, we need to do a better job sealing the cracks. There are a lot of pseudo-traditionalist whoppers circulating as common knowledge that are simply either fictional (false history) or the fruit of ignorance (erroneous claims to Catholic teaching pre-Vatican II but, more especially, claims to what the Church is supposedly teaching post-Vatican II). As an ex-ultratraditionalist, I feel very strongly called to expose a lot of the errors and doctrinal perversions that pulled me out of the Church.

A lot of pseudo-trads and radicals rashly presume themselves to be experts on the Mass and liturgy but, however, and in fact know woefully little about the nature of the liturgy or the Mass. The strongest ally of radicalism and a schismatic mindset is that all-dangerous mentality where a person presumes he knows when he, in fact, does not know -let alone understand- at all. This is of course radically different from the person who wants and loves the EF because they have an authentically Catholic devotion in it and find it a source of Faith and spiritual nourishment, or who appreciate the experience of a particular litrugical expression that so many of his or her favourite saints also, more or less, participated in, along with any number of varied other and perfectly valid reasons. But when the Mass -whether EF or OF- is being used as an open symbol of rebellion, disobedience or protest against the Magisterium of the Church then you are entering extremely dangerous waters, because the Mass is first and foremost the sacrament of unity ; rebellion, protest and disobedience are the diametric opposites - the very antithesis - of what the Mass is and also represents. For those, like the Pope, who understand the fundamental nature of the Mass, to see it being used as a banner of protest against the Church must pierce him to his heart.

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

As an ex-ultratraditionalist, I feel very strongly called to expose a lot of the errors and doctrinal perversions that pulled me out of the Church.

I know exactly where you’re coming from. I am an ex-traditionalist too.

 

[1AugustSon7]

I know exactly where you’re coming from. I am an ex-traditionalist too.

What brought you back?

For me, it was picking up and reading again the Holy Father’s book, Jesus of Nazareth. I was having -as usual- a misrerable day and saw it and, feeling proud, was hell-bent on making myself feel better by finding as many possible doctrinal slip-ups or whatever I possibly could. Half-way through, I was in tears, as I heard the voice of the Shepherd again that originally brought me to Christianity. I finished the book and picked up my Catechism again and read the whole thing front to cover. What I found in seriously studying was a book -nearly encyclopedic- length and wealth of material that exploded nearly everything I had read and been told from radicals. I badly want to collate all of this information and make it available online and in written form. I also want help writing a book to serve as something as an intro or companion guide to the specifically OF of the Mass, so people can see how deeply and faithfully Catholic it is through and through, modelled after classical companion works or catechisms of the EF, such as Abp. Fulton Sheen’s wonderful work. I want, in other words, to write something warm, friendly and helpful that does -notwitstanding- also serve as a theological, so to speak, defense of the OF so people wont fall for outrageous whoppers and calumnies targeted against it.

*EDIT: Sorry for all of the typos! This laptop has the worst keys… I practically have to hammer each key! lol

 

[crazzeto]

It’s funny because I have always said I love the traditional church (and I do, right down to liturgy) but there are few groups of Catholics I dislike more than the traditionalist. It should be quite possible for us to hold to the orthodox faith, and even its traditional expression without becoming like the pharasies. For instance, I prefer TLM but which part of tradition forbids today’s ordinary worship in the vernacular. Particularly given how many saints were made by doing just this thing (Sts. Cyril & Methodius for instance).

 

[GloriaMaria]

What brought you back?

For me, it was picking up and reading again the Holy Father’s book, Jesus of Nazareth. I was having -as usual- a misrerable day and saw it and, feeling proud, was hell-bent on making myself feel better by finding as many possible doctrinal slip-ups or whatever I possibly could. Half-way through, I was in tears, as I heard the voice of the Shepherd again that originally brought me to Christianity. I finished the book and picked up my Catechism again and read the whole thing front to cover. What I found in seriously studying was a book -nearly encyclopedic- length and wealth of material that exploded nearly everything I had read and been told from radicals. I badly want to collate all of this information and make it available online and in written form. I also want help writing a book to serve as something as an intro or companion guide to the specifically OF of the Mass, so people can see how deeply and faithfully Catholic it is through and through, modelled after classical companion works or catechisms of the EF, such as Abp. Fulton Sheen’s wonderful work. I want, in other words, to write something warm, friendly and helpful that does -notwitstanding- also serve as a theological, so to speak, defense of the OF so people wont fall for outrageous whoppers and calumnies targeted against it.

*EDIT: Sorry for all of the typos! This laptop has the worst keys… I practically have to hammer each key! lol

I think you could benefit a lot of people by developing an online body of work to help lead traditionalists away from error. Please do this if you can! Your posts are well thought out on this subject.

 

[GloriaMaria]

Much of what I’m getting ready to say may not be correct. I’m just goig off of what I’ve been hearing about the SSPX lately. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

 From what I've heard, the SSPX is in real serious turmoil right now. They're divided amongst themselves. There are those who agree with Bp. Fellay and his desire to return to Rome. Other however, disagree with him and side with the other two bishops who want to remain seperated from Rome. They say, "Rome has apostacized from the faith. And they'll never regain it again. We do not want to rejoin with the Modernists. We're the remnant of the true Church. Rome has screwed up."
 In fact, Bp. Williamson (who is 'in my mind' the most radical non-Sedevacantist Traditionalist out there) is so against Bp. Fellay's decision, that he started speaking out against him in some of his homilies (or sermons) despite the fact that Bp. Fellay is his superior. Bp Fellay then told him to shape up or he would face consequences. Bp. Williamson wouldn't heed the warning and kept doing what he was doing and then got suspended and was therefore, not allowed to publically say Mass, preach, confirm, ordain, or administer other Sacraments and yet he still kept doing it anyway. It's interesting how history repeats itself. Just like their found Archbishop Lefebvre wouldn't heed the warnings from the Pope to quit doing what he was doing and got in trouble for it, so is Bp. Williamson. 
 And again, just like Abp. Lefebvre did it because he felt that "Pope Paul VI was in error", Bp. Williamson is also doing it because he feels that Bp Fellay "is in error." And after illicitly functioning as a bishop under suspension, he was later expelled from the SSPX and is now just an independent bishop. In fact, several members of the SSPX left the society to go follow him because they agreed with his position. It's amazing how a group that is outside of full-communion with Christ is being destroyed, just like most, if not all of the 25,000+ Protestant denominations out there who are at odds with each other doctrincally and are falling apart. Traditionalism (SSPX and Sedevacantist breed) is really nothing more than a special breed of Protestantism despite how anti-Protestant they claim themselves to be.
 Our Lord said that we shall know them by their fruits. And that every house divided against itself will fall. We see their fruits and their fruits are far from good. We need to  pray for them. We need to pray for the rejoining of the SSPX to Rome, we need to pray especially for Bp. Williamson and others like him whose hearts are so hardened that it almost seems impossible for them to wake up.

Yes, you are right on all counts. Actually, the sermon over the weekend at our chapel was entirely tied up in the Bishop Williamson split and the sinfulness of speaking against your superiors in a public setting (ie: internet). No names were named, but the topic was very obvious. I thought that it was ironic.

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

What brought you back?

Thanks for the question. I’d recommend that you check out my thread that I posted in the ‘Traditional Catholicism’ forums entitled “Is Tradition the Truth?” It’s my testimony of how I left the chains of Traditionalism that I was raised with and how I came back to full subjection to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, which is Christ’s Apostolic governing cabinet on Earth. I’m so glad to have met some ex-traditionalists like you out there. For a while, because I haven’t heard too much about them, I thought that I was the only one.

God bless.

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

I think you could benefit a lot of people by developing an online body of work to help lead traditionalists away from error. Please do this if you can! Your posts are well thought out on this subject.

Who me? Or the other guy who said that he was an ex-traditionalist? I’m actually thinking about starting a ministry that evangelizes to Traditionalists actually. What would be really beneficial to starting it would be to find some more ex-trads and listen to their testimonies and that can be used as “bait” so-to-speak to convince trads.

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

Yes, you are right on all counts. Actually, the sermon over the weekend at our chapel was entirely tied up in the Bishop Williamson split and the sinfulness of speaking against your superiors in a public setting (ie: internet). No names were named, but the topic was very obvious. I thought that it was ironic.

Do you attend an SSPX chapel for mass?

 

[1AugustSon7]

Who me? Or the other guy who said that he was an ex-traditionalist? I’m actually thinking about starting a ministry that evangelizes to Traditionalists actually. What would be really beneficial to starting it would be to find some more ex-trads and listen to their testimonies and that can be used as “bait” so-to-speak to convince trads.

I would be very interested in a collaboration, and your sentiments about an apostolate are also shared by me! I suspect this is so because we know the pain and trauma that a lot of errors and viciousness can subject us to. I think there are more ex-trads out there, but that there is a certain shame in it because it involves a certain confession of fault and being lead astray, which is never easy (and I did go to Confession for Reconciliation- not an easy thing to admit that you spent a lot of your time and energy attacking the Church!).

I like your idea of beginning with testimonials. That’s a very human touch and can open the door to people considering the less personal apologetic side of defending the faith from certain perversions, errors or simply just misunderstanding or confusion.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Thanks for the question. I’d recommend that you check out my thread that I posted in the ‘Traditional Catholicism’ forums entitled “Is Tradition the Truth?” It’s my testimony of how I left the chains of Traditionalism that I was raised with and how I came back to full subjection to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, which is Christ’s Apostolic governing cabinet on Earth. I’m so glad to have met some ex-traditionalists like you out there. For a while, because I haven’t heard too much about them, I thought that I was the only one.

God bless.

I forgot to add: you might like this site and the material it contains!

jloughnan.tripod.com/albers.htm

EDIT: Added: and the good Lord bless you also!

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

I would be very interested in a collaboration, and your sentiments about an apostolate are also shared by me! I suspect this is so because we know the pain and trauma that a lot of errors and viciousness can subject us to. I think there are more ex-trads out there, but that there is a certain shame in it because it involves a certain confession of fault and being lead astray, which is never easy (and I did go to Confession for Reconciliation- not an easy thing to admit that you spent a lot of your time and energy attacking the Church!).

I like your idea of beginning with testimonials. That’s a very human touch and can open the door to people considering the less personal apologetic side of defending the faith from certain perversions, errors or simply just misunderstanding or confusion.

My friend, I couldn’t’ve said it better myself. I never thought that I would meet someone who thought like me in that manner. We need to talk some more sometime. You and I could really do a good service for the Lord by winning souls of trads and evangelizing them.

 

[Lormar]

In my opinion, we need to do a better job sealing the cracks. There are a lot of pseudo-traditionalist whoppers circulating as common knowledge that are simply either fictional (false history) or the fruit of ignorance (erroneous claims to Catholic teaching pre-Vatican II but, more especially, claims to what the Church is supposedly teaching post-Vatican II). As an ex-ultratraditionalist, I feel very strongly called to expose a lot of the errors and doctrinal perversions that pulled me out of the Church.

A lot of pseudo-trads and radicals rashly presume themselves to be experts on the Mass and liturgy but, however, and in fact know woefully little about the nature of the liturgy or the Mass. The strongest ally of radicalism and a schismatic mindset is that all-dangerous mentality where a person presumes he knows when he, in fact, does not know -let alone understand- at all. This is of course radically different from the person who wants and loves the EF because they have an authentically Catholic devotion in it and find it a source of Faith and spiritual nourishment, or who appreciate the experience of a particular litrugical expression that so many of his or her favourite saints also, more or less, participated in, along with any number of varied other and perfectly valid reasons. But when the Mass -whether EF or OF- is being used as an open symbol of rebellion, disobedience or protest against the Magisterium of the Church then you are entering extremely dangerous waters, because the Mass is first and foremost the sacrament of unity ; rebellion, protest and disobedience are the diametric opposites - the very antithesis - of what the Mass is and also represents. For those, like the Pope, who understand the fundamental nature of the Mass, to see it being used as a banner of protest against the Church must pierce him to his heart.

As a former traditional myself, I wish you would. You would be doing a great service, not only for the souls of those who are convinced of these errors, but for Holy Mother Church as well. I am certain that you would be greatly rewarded by Our Lord for doing so.

I have tried to warn others that once someone starts on this road, it is a slippery slope down, and it is hard to extricate oneself from it without continuing to fall back. Many do not take me seriously, and you can only sit back and watch them do what you have tried to save them from.

A real independent mindset has taken hold of modern men and women.

 

[Lormar]

I was having -as usual- a misrerable day and saw it and, feeling proud, was hell-bent on making myself feel better by finding as many possible doctrinal slip-ups or whatever I possibly could.

How I can relate to that, and how I inwardly cringe today when I remember thinking the same thing - it basically came down to: “Oh, this looks like some new heresy from the novus ordo church. Let’s see what insanity they are preaching now.” God forgive me.

 

[1AugustSon7]

How I can relate to that, and how I inwardly cringe today when I remember thinking the same thing - it basically came down to: “Oh, this looks like some new heresy from the novus ordo church. Let’s see what insanity they are preaching now.” God forgive me.

I know exactly how you feel. God bless. If you’re okay with it, I think I will be remembering you and our friend Catholic4Jesus in my prayers for strength and healing.

Peace be with you.

 

[Lormar]

I know exactly how you feel. God bless. If you’re okay with it, I think I will be remembering you and our friend Catholic4Jesus in my prayers for strength and healing.

Peace be with you.

If you only knew how much I need it. Although it has been a few years sinced coming back to the Church, I have a very long way to go because of the length of time spent in these traditional circles. In fact, not a week goes by that I am not tempted to return.

Thank you!

 

[1AugustSon7]

If you only knew how much I need it. Although it has been a few years sinced coming back to the Church, I have a very long way to go because of the length of time spent in these traditional circles. In fact, not a week goes by that I am not tempted to return.

Thank you!

You know what, apart from the apostalate’s apologetic side, I think it would forward God’s grace and healing to the Church if the apostolate included a healing and support network also. The apologetics will provide everything needed to dispense with every doubt and strengthen in the truth our fidelity to holy Mother Church; the support network, centred around prayer and charity, can help bring healing to our souls, and provide individuals who may be highly dependent on certain circles with a network of individuals so they do not feel alone or isolated.

 

[Lormar]

You know what, apart from the apostalate’s apologetic side, I think it would forward God’s grace and healing to the Church if the apostolate included a healing and support network also. The apologetics will provide everything needed to dispense with every doubt and strengthen in the truth our fidelity to holy Mother Church; the support network, centred around prayer and charity, can help bring healing to our souls, and provide individuals who may be highly dependent on certain circles with a network of individuals so they do not feel alone or isolated.

For the longest time I have been hoping that such a support network would come into existence. Surely, there must be more like us out there. As you must know, it is not an easy transition, and a lot of the old way of thinking stays with you. In fact, if you have spent years among these groups, the old way of thinking is an immediate reaction to anything that goes on in the Church, and it is not easy to change it. Outside of prayer, and a lot of it, and leaving myself at the Mercy of God, there is little else I can do at this point.

 

[1AugustSon7]

For the longest time I have been hoping that such a support network would come into existence. Surely, there must be more like us out there. As you must know, it is not an easy transition, and a lot of the old way of thinking stays with you. In fact, if you have spent years among these groups, the old way of thinking is an immediate reaction to anything that goes on in the Church, and it is not easy to change it. Outside of prayer, and a lot of it, and leaving myself at the Mercy of God, there is little else I can do at this point.

It is a cross we have to bear. But I think yes: apologetics to heal the mind and strengthen conviction, and a social support network to help people heal, strengthened by the almighty power of the faithfuls’ prayer.

We do have one virtue gained from the transition: humility. You can’t revert without it. It necessarily requires a big pill -always tough to swollow- of humility. But for that very reason, I think, God loves us and the Virgin Mary watches over us.

Alright Lomar. I think this thread is a little too much to just be coincidence. I am going to be doing some serious praying and I think I will try to get in touch with the Diocese to see what, if any, guidance the Bishop or his fellow-workers can provide for realizing this apostolate. I really think souls need it, like yours and mine, need it.

God bless.