SSPX denies validity and licitness of NO?

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The problem is who decides the true SSPX interpretation, or even who currently “belongs”? Some argue Bishop Williamson is still True sspx, along with others in the Resistance. They all claim to be true followers of the Archbishop.
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That doesn’t necessarily disproves their criticisms of the NO though. It might hold that their position is false as an idea but the claims made towards the NO is another thing
Ioannes_L said:
Maybe he/she is a member of the so called “resistance”.
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No he is legitimately an apologist for the SSPX in general and has read books and whatnot on SSPX apologetics. Those are the claims he presented to me.
TK421 said:
Ecumenical Councils are under the direction of the Holy Spirit. They don’t teach heresy.
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Is there a backing to this I would be able to present?
 
Quis_UtDeus said:
The arguments include that the Second Vatican Council had some heretical statements
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Can you list each supposed heretical statement. Let’s start there and examine these claims
 
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I’ll have to see because my concern in the conversation on whether or not it could happen in principle. To which I had to admit that I did not know exactly.

I held that I couldn’t come to believe the Church would allow error or sin and he responded that this Council wasn’t one that represented the Church’s position but rather sinful men within the Church.

However I’m sure there is an SSPX page that lists them all if you really would rather address them
 
It’s simple, just ask this person to state each supposed heresy, with written evidence
 
Again, the dishonest attacks against the SSPX are incomprehensible.

The SSPX has never held the Novus Ordo Missae to be invalid. This is not the position of its founder nor of the SSPX.

Anyone saying the contrary, let them please cite even one official source of the SSPX that makes this claim.
 
As for the Modus Operandi of the SSPX, regardless of what you might think of it, but it was the way many Catholics operated during the Arian Crisis. They operate as they do precisely because of the whole nature of the crisis of the Church. As each day goes by, that saintly man, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre is being vindicated. The rot we now seen, is what he foresaw 40-50 years ago. Thank God for his heroic defense of the ancient faith and worship of the Church.

A vast amount of bishops, clergy and laity today are able to profit from his work. Without the Archbishop, there would not be all the other organization such as the FSSP etc. Thanks to his heroic attitude of standing up in the fact of injustice. God send us more men like him.

mundabor.wordpress.com

The Athanasius Question

Athanasius was excommunicated. He continued his job, uncaring. More than that – and something I seldom read about – he and St. Eusebius started appointing bishops of their own, again ig…
mundabor.wordpress.com mundabor.wordpress.com
 
Have you got a written document by Pope Emeritus Benedict himself to link up
 
cathapolo said:
As for the Modus Operandi of the SSPX, regardless of what you might think of it, but it was the way many Catholics operated during the Arian Crisis.
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Not sure what you are trying to say here

Arius headed up Arianism.
Arius taught that Christ was ‘made’ by God and was therefore not ‘eternal’ since he had a beginning. Nor was he of the same ‘substance’ as God. Although greater than human, Christ was not equal to God the Father.

This group denied the Divinity of Jesus.

The Council Of Nicea in 325AD stamped that heresy out and professed the Divinity of Christ.

So that was modus operandi. Call a Council, deal with the questions was Jesus fully Divine, confess Him fully Divine. Deny heresies to the left and right. All the Bishops were there, and the Emporer who called the Council and United Christian belief. So the Arian heresy worked to unite Christian belief and deny heresy. It also saw Constantine routing those following arian ism,Gnosticism and docetism.
 
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A more complete reference for the Benedict XVI quote is the following.

-Cardinal Ratzinger (Now Pope Benedict XVI), address to the Chilean Bishops, 13 July 1988, Santiago Chile
 
Have you actually got a link to the words of Benedict himself. Surely they are on the internet.

A statement from the man himself about calling Vat 11 all that.

We can also discuss the very important (name removed by moderator)ut of Athanius to early doctrine. We cannot compare the exiles of Athanaius of Alexandria to the SSPX condition.
They are seperate by almost 2000 years and very different socio-economic and political climates.
 
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My point is that during the Arian Crisis, the greater number of bishop embraced that heresy, and it was the few faithful bishops that rejected it. And of them some of them worked outside the normal operation of things due to the circumstances they found themselves in.

As Fr. William Jurgens points out: “At one point in the Church’s history, only a few years before Gregory’s [Nazianz] present preaching (+380 A.D.), perhaps the number of Catholic bishops in possession of sees, as opposed to Arian bishops in possession of sees, was no greater than something between 1% and 3% of the total. Had doctrine been determined by popularity, today we should all be deniers of Christ and opponents of the Spirit. …In the time of the Emperor Valens (4th century), Basil was virtually the only orthodox Bishop in all the East who succeeded in retaining charge of his see… If it has no other importance for modern man, knowledge of the history of Arianism should demonstrate at least that the Catholic Church takes no account of popularity and numbers in shaping and maintaining doctrine: else, we should long since have had to abandon Basil and Hilary and Athanasius and Liberius and Ossius and call ourselves after Arius.” - Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, , Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, 1970, Vol. 2, p. 39.
 
The Principle under which the SSPX operates was well grasped by someone like St. Augustine who pointed out that:

“Divine providence often allows even good men to be expelled from the Christian community… By their patient endurance of such injury and disgrace for the peace of the Church…, they will give man a lesson in true affliction, in the really genuine charity, which God’s service calls for. The object of such men is to return when the gale has blown itself out; but if this is not possible because the storm continues, or is more likely to break out more furiously than ever if they go back, they cling to their determination… and are prepared… to defend to the death the faith which they know is preached in the Catholic Church, and to support it by their loyal testimony. The Father sees these men in secret, and rewards them in secret.” - De Vera Religione, sec. 6
 
Speaking of Mr. Michael Davies, Cardinal Ratzinger at the time wrote " I had the good fortune to meet him several times and I found him as a man of deep faith and ready to embrace suffering. Ever since the Council he put all his energy into the service of the Faith and left us important publications especially about the Sacred Liturgy. Even though he suffered from the Church in many ways in his time, he always truly remained a man of the Church." - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, (now Pope Emeritus) 9 November 2004
 
cathapolo said:
My point is that during the Arian Crisis, the greater number of bishop embraced that heresy
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If that were the case, the Orthodox centre would not have prevailed. The exaggerated heretical left would have won the day.

We get the word and theology Orthodox from this Council.
Do you understand how our doctrine of the fully Divine and fully human Jesus developed, and what heresies were rejected in doing so, including Arianism. And first and foremost Arianism.
In early 4th century emporer Constantinople was in charge. He shaped the doctrine and unification of Christianity

SSPX only remains in the church fold because it exploits a loophole of not having laity membership
 
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cathapolo said:
The Principle under which the SSPX operates was well grasped by someone like St. Augustine who pointed out that:
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You are appropriating something completely foreign to bolster a point. We can also say St Augustine became that person, that very devout, very orthodox bishop, a doctor of the Church.

Anyway so where is Pope Emeritus Benedict’s direct written statement of what you claim. If it is truth, it will be there first hand, not required or appropriated or redacted.
 
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As to the statement “SSPX only remains in the church fold because it exploits a loophole of not having laity membership.”

That is pure nonsense. The SSPX remains in the Church because it is Catholic, pure and simple !
 
And Again, as I stated in a previous post. Please cite one example where a group that is not part of the Church is given ordinary the faculties of jurisdiction as the priest of the SSPX enjoy regarding confessions as granted to them by the current Pontiff.
 
As regards the Arian crisis, again, some basic history and facts.

Blessed Cardinal Henry Newman Speaking about this time of the Arian crisis did not hesitate to affirm: : “There was a the temporary suspense of the function of Ecclesia Docens [teaching Church] as about 80 percent of the bishops fell into heresy. The body of bishops failed in their confession of the faith… The Catholic people, in the length and breadth of Christendom, were the obstinate champions of Catholic truth, and the bishops were not. Of course, there were great and illustrious exceptions; first, Athanasius, Hilary, the Latin Eusebius, and Phoebadius; and after them, Basil, the two Gregories, and Ambrose;… This is a very remarkable fact."

What is more is that even St. Jorome himself in speaking about the extent of the Arian crisis didn’t hesitate to affirm that “The whole world groaned, and was astonished to find itself Arian.”- Jerome, Dialogue Against the Luciferians, 19.
 
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