SSPX & FSSP relationship now?

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I totally see what you are saying here. I have seen way more (abuses) within many ordinary form masses than I have when attending Traditional Latin Masses. In fact, I can’t think of any abuse I have witnessed at the Latin masses I have been to.
 
I totally see what you are saying here. I have seen way more (abuses) within many ordinary form masses than I have when attending Traditional Latin Masses. In fact, I can’t think of any abuse I have witnessed at the Latin masses I have been to.
I do not understand it, so perhaps you or prayinglatin could explain further.

When you talk about “abuses” do you mean things that the Church, ie the Vatican, defines as abuses? Or do you mean things the Church used to define as abuses? Prayinglatin has referred to Pius XII’s Mediator Dei in his description of abuses, which I find inappropriate since the reform inspired by MD has changed the law on many of those things.

Do you know both forms of the Roman Rite well enough to judge abuses equally? I could recognize abuses in the OF, but not notice any in an Orthodox Jewish service. That does not mean much.

What is the way you are measuring abuses? Is Mass in Latin an abuse, since it does not address the pastoral needs of most people? Is adding a didactic commentary, explaining the ritual as it happens, an abuse? In both rites, neither, or in just one?
 
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ConcernedConvert:
I totally see what you are saying here. I have seen way more (abuses) within many ordinary form masses than I have when attending Traditional Latin Masses. In fact, I can’t think of any abuse I have witnessed at the Latin masses I have been to.
I do not understand it, so perhaps you or prayinglatin could explain further.

When you talk about “abuses” do you mean things that the Church, ie the Vatican, defines as abuses? Or do you mean things the Church used to define as abuses? Prayinglatin has referred to Pius XII’s Mediator Dei in his description of abuses, which I find inappropriate since the reform inspired by MD has changed the law on many of those things.

Do you know both forms of the Roman Rite well enough to judge abuses equally? I could recognize abuses in the OF, but not notice any in an Orthodox Jewish service. That does not mean much.

What is the way you are measuring abuses? Is Mass in Latin an abuse, since it does not address the pastoral needs of most people? Is adding a didactic commentary, explaining the ritual as it happens, an abuse? In both rites, neither, or in just one?
Some common abuses I used to see on a regular basis when attending the OF include:

People holding hands during the Our Father
Eucharistic ministers giving priestly blessings
The priest coming down from the altar during the sign of peace to shake hands with people
Allowing members of the laity to give the homily
Liturgical dance
Lack of holy water
 
People holding hands during the Our Father
Is this an abuse technically speaking? The others I agree, they are abuses, although in my case (and place) I don’t see them.
 
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Lay people preaching and liturgical dance on a regular basis? Really? That’s pretty extraordinary. Never encountered such things outside of the Internet.
 
I see, it seems holding hands is explicitly an abuse.

However, acording to the article, if one of all the attendants doesn’t kneel because he/she can’t kneel, then it’s a liturgical abuse…
 
At our cathedral, the Sunday 11 AM Mass is primarily in English, but there’s lots of chant, incense, and a Latin polyphonic choir that sings the Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Latin.
Those are all plus’s for sure. Depends on the diocese and area. My diocese has none of those things anywhere. Are any of them ad orientem? That’s usually what makes it a unicorn more than other features.
 
I’ve been to a few Ad Orientem OF Masses in my archdiocese, but I’m not sure if there is a regular one at this time. I suspect one or two parishes might do it regularly. The cathedral doesn’t… but, and this may be another unicorn, the cathedral promotes the use of the altar rail to receive communion… probably half the faithful kneel at the altar rail at all Masses (7 Masses on Sundays and 4 Masses on weekdays).
 
St. Pius X encyclical On Catholic Action, and other encyclicals and other documents by popes describe the importance of a close working relationship: the current pope, current bishops Ordinary, the parish pastors and people. These documents, some of which go back to the ECFs, do not make allowance for a merely symbolic “unity”, such as hanging the Pope’s and Ordinary’s picture on the wall. They call for working, functional unity, with obedience to the current living Magisterium, pastors United to the Ordinary.

FSSP is in unity with the various documents on Catholic Action. They are not only prolife, but function as part and parcel with the Diocesan regional prolife efforts.
 
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the case is unprecedented in Church history, so from that point of view certainly a hard and heavy decision to make.
Not unprecedented. Every reformer says “In general, I still respect the authority, but in this UNIQUE situation we reluctantly have to set aside certain extreme abuses of popes and bishops that are total disconnected from Catholic Tradition, in order to preserve that Tradition during the present emergency”.

Lots of reformers said that. Each one claims to be unique. Most reformers said “We have NOT left the Church!” The early Lutheran’s didn’t call themselves Lutheran’s, but Catholics. So also, the OC’s.

The SSPX Resistance says they didn’t leave SSPX, they preserve it.
 
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Does the SSPX (in general) really think that it is “scandalous” to attend a FSSP Mass on Sundays? If so, why? What’s their justification for this view?
You would have to ask the SSPX priest serving the chapel. The laity cannot speak for the society.

If your daughter is old enough to consider marriage, then her potential fiance is old enough to stand up to his parents on her behalf.
 
In my country, I have only encountered those abuses from given article:

Tabernacle being on the side (only in our Church)
Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion distributing at every Mass, and they do give little blessings to non-communicants who come (okay, that’s country-wide)
inviting children to the sanctuary during Our Father (probably just my Parish)
holding hands during Our Father with children (probably just my Parish)
saying “May Body and Blood of Christ keep me safe for eternal life” out loud (just our Priest)

Whenever I travel or am in different town where I go very often, I only see EMCH’s being there as abuse. I can’t say our country is very traditional or conservative, but in reality I never saw liturgical dance or people interrupting Mass for commercial reasons outside end part where Parish announcements (those commercial reasons being a charity organization is looking for funds or something Church-related). Priest does tend to say one-two sentences at the end summarizing Homily or readings before he gives a blessing and wishes everyone great Sunday / rest of the Week.
 
My inquiry about liturgical abuses was to contrast those in the OF with those in the EF?

Do you know Latin well enough to identify abuses like saying “for all”?

Why is Tabernacle placement an “abuse”? Is it a violation of some law, or of a particular worldview? Could I list altar rails as an abuse in the EF? My question is not about these particulars, but how do we determine abuses.
 
Why is Tabernacle placement an “abuse”?
Because Vatican forbid it as imprudent to place it on the side.
My question is not about these particulars, but how do we determine abuses.
Oh, well, it is easy, really. You find authoritative document that forbids it or discourages it heavily, and then you know it is an abuse. Also, generally, if it is not allowed it should not be done- Mass is already structured in form it has, no need to add anything else to it which is not explicitly allowed.
 
This thread is about the relationship between SSPX and FSSP. Both support the EF. Both oppose abuses by some individual priests who offer the OF.

Where do they differ? Ecclesiology. There are many authoritative documents that refer to the relationships of bishops pastors and laity, bishops and local religious orders, and religious orders and the Holy See. This includes Canon Law as well as many encyclicals, including
by Pope St Pius X. FSSP is in obedience to these provisions.

SSPX is not.
 
Vatican forbid it as imprudent to place it on the side.
Did they forbid it or say it was imprudent? What is their example, so we can understand how binding this prohibition is? Do they have the tabernacle front and center in all their churches? When did they forbid it? Redemptionis Sacramentum 130 just quotes Paul VI’s rules which do not say that.

A lot of what is called “liturgical abuse” may not be. Prayinglatin included liturgical actions that were once forbidden and now are not.

But again, my question is whether you know the EF well enough to know if there are similar abuses there. The way SSPX has been disobedient suggests to me that they are not meticulous about following Vatican rules. They follow what they believe the rules should be, which is just a bad attitude to develop.

But I do not know. I am just trying to assess what people are saying about abuses.
 
They follow what they believe the rules should be, which is just a bad attitude to develop.
I agree.
But again, my question is whether you know the EF well enough to know if there are similar abuses there.
No, though I am aware that some people do. It is known EF is mostly done by Priests who tend to be very strict on how to celebrate it- of course, that was not always the case historically (pre-V2 it was full of liturgical abuses). It pretty complicated and many things Priest does are not seen or heard by people in the pews, so abuses are not as easy to see either. All in all though, it is known some Priests improvise during OF, not so much during EF.
Did they forbid it or say it was imprudent?
"The Blessed Sacrament should be reserved in a solid, inviolable tabernacle in the middle of the main altar or on a side altar, but in a truly prominent place. Alternatively, according to legitimate customs and in individual cases to be decided by the local ordinary, it may be placed in some other part of the church which is really worthy and properly equipped” - Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharist Mystery ( Eucharisticum Mysterium )

That document is from post-V2 times. My Church has tabernacle on the side, not on side altar, just on the side. It is not a custom in this country at all, and I was actually very surprised other Churches have tabernacles in the middle until I learned that was the norm. Perhaps some people wrongly assume side altars are wrong placements for tabernacle, though.
 
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I see, it seems holding hands is explicitly an abuse.

However, acording to the article, if one of all the attendants doesn’t kneel because he/she can’t kneel, then it’s a liturgical abuse…
Perhaps the incapacitated attendant might request a dispensation?
 
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