SSPX, Here's The Problem We Have,

[At_Trent]

The use of Latin by the Church, either in its documents or its worship, is not a matter of faith or morals, nor immutable truth, and thus the directive issued by one pope in this regard is not binding on future pontiffs. Veterum Sapientia was the prudential wisdom of Blessed John XXIII regarding a tradition of the Church, not regarding Apostolic Tradition.

And it took how many months after his death to disregard the VS ? They didn’t mourn his death very long did they ?

My point in bringing it up, is that for the first time in history, revolutionary changes were not only accepted, but imposed upon the faithful.

As the quoted words of many in the Hierarchy have revealed, one of which is now Bishop of Rome, these revolutionary changes have harmed the Church, specifically the level of piety among the flock.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

a picture speaks a thousand words.

Taken completely out of context with the intent of making a norm out of what is not a norm, yes, they do. They speak lies.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

And it took how many months after his death to disregard the VS ? They didn’t mourn his death very long did they ?

My point in bringing it up, is that for the first time in history, revolutionary changes were not only accepted, but imposed upon the faithful.

As the quoted words of many in the Hierarchy have revealed, one of which is now Bishop of Rome, these revolutionary changes have harmed the Church, specifically the level of piety among the flock.

But the way out of that harmful wilderness and toward wholeness and peace has been pointed out by that same Bishop of Rome and many so-called “Traditionalists” want nothing to do with it. I refer to Summorum Pontificum and it’s cover letter to the bishops, at least as regards the Mass.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Taken completely out of context with the intent of making a norm out of what is not a norm, yes, they do. They speak lies.

you should be concerned when you look at these pictures and see the stage of the Church today. one cannot hide, unless this fits their agenda.

i dont eve know why we are fighting here. it is obviously that we are in the worst days of the Church. why the arguments, i do know. state of total apostasy of the Faith.

in Brasil, there is a priest. he is very famous. he is very popular among Catholics. he wrote a book which many Catholics still buys and reads. this book denies the Eucharist is the True Body and Blood of Christ in his writings. yet he is embraced as one of the greatest priest in the country. although he is destroying the faith of the people. this is the kind of people that are completely embraced by the leaders of teh Church today.

 

[maurin]

Ah, Dallas is actually my home and if we are talking about the bishops I imagine we are talking about, then I concur, about the bishops, at least. Nonetheless, when I have gone home to Mass these last 20 years, I have not witnessed ANYTHING that approaches what those pictures depict, anywhere, in either rural parishes or urban ones. Now, if you want to talk California, well…I’ve come to the conclusion that there is something strange in the water at the seminaries.

I’m not talking about Dallas, but the Diocese just to the East.

Blessed Sacrament Parish in the 'hood of Dallas still retains the glory of Tradition, thanks to its Priest, if he is still in fact there.

The Pope, speaking of his authority as we were, has the legal and moral authority to clean up the water. Why doesn’t he? I mean no disrespect to His Holiness.

 

[At_Trent]

thank you. this is one of them. but some just choose to ignore what is going.
the problems in the Church is due to the poor worship to God, but some just choose to ignore that the worship to God comes first.

"A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken him?”
Pope Pius XII

A lot of wisdom is ignored

 

[At_Trent]

But the way out of that harmful wilderness and toward wholeness and peace has been pointed out by that same Bishop of Rome and many so-called “Traditionalists” want nothing to do with it. I refer to Summorum Pontificum and it’s cover letter to the bishops, at least as regards the Mass.

Well, at least you see there is harm that has been done. I commend you for that.

The letter you mentioned included a request by H.H. to report back in 3 years. I wonder how many letters he will receive claiming there is no interest in their diocese ? And of those, I’d guess that isn’t true in many cases, going by the posts on various forums speaking of the cold reactions when laity ask for the EF.

 

[StTommyMore]

This thread is starting to get a little harsh and ugly. In interest of charity, I think we all need to pause before responding.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

you should be concerned when you look at these pictures and see the stage of the Church today. one cannot hide, unless this fits their agenda.

i dont eve know why we are fighting here. it is obviously that we are in the worst days of the Church. why the arguments, i do know. state of total apostasy of the Faith.

in Brasil, there is a priest. he is very famous. he is very popular among Catholics. he wrote a book which many Catholics still buys and reads. this book denies the Eucharist is the True Body and Blood of Christ in his writings. yet he is embraced as one of the greatest priest in the country. although he is destroying the faith of the people. this is the kind of people that are completely embraced by the leaders of teh Church today.

You are speaking VERY broadly and hyperbolically. I DON’T see the state of the Church as being depicted in those pictures, though I have seen problems, and I think you DO because you want to see the Church YOUR way, you want it to be the way you think it should be. That isn’t going to happen.

Nor is it obvious that we are in the worst days of the Church. From at least one perspective, it’s possible that, historically speaking, the Church has never HAD anything, but “worst” days. She’s always been in trouble because She is and is supposed to be completely counter-cultural. From Her Master’s Crucifixion to the most recent martyrs in India or Afganistan or Indonesia, She’s had troubles. The constant heresies that spring up, the persecutions, etc., all add up to one very bad time. Conversely, it might be said that She has had nothing, but triumphs, as the blood of the Martyrs are the seeds of the Faith, AND as the Holy One, Who sees the past, the present, and the future from the vantage of eternity, has already determined that His Spotless Bride (for so He insists on calling Her) will move from being the Church Militant to the Church Triumphant (for in the Divine Will, what IS willed IS). Trouble is, I’m not certain that the Church Triumphant is going to look like anything many (not all) so-called “traditionalists” will not complain over.

Finally, I’ve no idea which priest you’re talking about, but since the papacy of the Ven. John Paul II, dissident priests have been taking to task by the Pope and the CDF. I’m old enough to remember Pope John Paul shaking his finger at a “poet priest” in the socialist government of Nicaragua and telling him that he needed to straighten out his position with the Church. I can remember Charles Curran being denied the right to teach in Catholic universities. So I doubt that one who denies the Real Presence is embraced by the likes of John Paul II or Benedict XVI.

 

[At_Trent]

This thread is starting to get a little harsh and ugly. In interest of charity, I think we all need to pause before responding.

Charity is a virtue. But this TC sub fora is a battle ground. The frequent posters, on both sides, are opportunists. When opportunity presents itself, those on both sides will seize it to defend the Faith in the manner they chose.

But, the trads always win

“Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.”
G.K. Chesterton "

 

[wisdomseeker]

"A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken him?”
Pope Pius XII

A lot of wisdom is ignored

that is because the liberals dont want anything to do with the past popes. they have dig themselves very deep in the business of modernizing the Church(getting with the times)that it is very convenient for them to hide the past from the people. the less the people know, the better it is for them to convince the people that they are right.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Well, at least you see there is harm that has been done. I commend you for that.

The letter you mentioned included a request by H.H. to report back in 3 years. I wonder how many letters he will receive claiming there is no interest in their diocese ? And of those, I’d guess that isn’t true in many cases, going by the posts on various forums speaking of the cold reactions when laity ask for the EF.

Just out of curiosity, do you automatically assume that the bishops will be lying? How many people within their diocese have to ask? I don’t know of anyone in my parish that has ever requested it. I admit that I may simply not know, but I’m friends with our pastor and our schola director and neither have ever mentioned it. What if the demand isn’t that great? Or at least regionally? What if a lot of people in upper New York want it, but no one in Rhode Island does? Are the Catholics of Rhode Island bad Catholics?

 

[StTommyMore]

Charity is a virtue. But this TC sub fora is a battle ground. The frequent posters, on both sides, are opportunists. When opportunity presents itself, those on both sides will seize it to defend the Faith in the manner they chose.

But, the trads always win

“Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.”
G.K. Chesterton "

It does not need to be this way. We can have differences of opinions, but at the same time be friends. It starts with not being concerned about “winning,” but arriving at Truth.

 

[pnewton]

a picture speaks a thousand words.

That saying was prior to the internet. I put zero value on them. There have been too many lies told with pictures where documentation is lacking and the representative pics are handpicked. It is like compiling statistics based on a 1% sampling, where instead of random sampling, those sampled are hand-picked to give the desired data.

No, pictures like you link only convince those who already believe.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

that is because the liberals dont want anything to do with the past popes. they have dig themselves very deep in the business of modernizing the Church(getting with the times)that it is very convenient for them to hide the past from the people. the less the people know, the better it is for them to convince the people that they are right.

In this context, re: Blessed John XXIII and Latin, the use of the vernacular is hardly “keeping up with the times.” The Church has used the vernacular in its Mass before, indeed, I believe the Eastern Churches always have.

 

[maurin]

Just out of curiosity, do you automatically assume that the bishops will be lying? How many people within their diocese have to ask? I don’t know of anyone in my parish that has ever requested it. I admit that I may simply not know, but I’m friends with our pastor and our schola director and neither have ever mentioned it. What if the demand isn’t that great? Or at least regionally? What if a lot of people in upper New York want it, but no one in Rhode Island does? Are the Catholics of Rhode Island bad Catholics?

Kirk, before I went to the SSPX–which took me about a year of miserable prayer and soul searching-- a group of more than thirty families requested of the Pastors in our area to please offer the Traditional Mass. Responses ranged from no thank you to over my dead body, which was my home Parish’s Pastor’s response. Multiple requests to the Bishop went unanswered. A request to the FSSP was answered quickly, but with regrets.

Out of curiosity, do you doubt that animosity exists towards Traditionalists in some Dioceses, and do you assume that the MP SP was graciously welcomed in every Diocese? If your answers are emphaticly no and no, why do you think At Trent was being unreasonable?

 

[maurin]

In this context, re: Blessed John XXIII and Latin, the use of the vernacular is hardly “keeping up with the times.” The Church has used the vernacular in its Mass before, indeed, I believe the Eastern Churches always have.

When the vernacular was latin and then Greek. But we are also not talking about the Eastern Rites. We are talking about the Latin Church. Was the reference a red herring?