SSPX Info, updates and interviews

[JReducation]

Why is it automatically assumed that from the fruits of the process (EF Mass, etc.), people haven’t made progress in holiness?

The EF is not a problem. The mass is never a stumbling block to sanctity. What becomes a stumbling block to sanctity are other things.

1. The time and energy invested in debates, which belong to prayer, family, and the poor.
2. The excessive preocupation with documents that other very holy men and women don’t know they exist and if they do know, they could care less, because there are things in their present enviornment that need their attention, as Timothy said: the parish needs a new coat of paint. The dying are alone in hospice. The unwed mother is feeling hopeless, but there are not enough volunteers are a crisis pregnancy center. The Blessed Sacrament is sitting alone in a tabernacle waiting for a visit. The bishops need our support to stop the HHS mandate. The list of situations in which Christ is voiceless and needs our attention is quite long.
3. The fact that this debates often escalate into hateful comments.
4. The struggle for power and control in the Church instead of journeying into the mind of God.
5. The absence of inner silence.

As one who’s primary ministry is the care of souls, these things cause me great concern. I recently saw on another site where they’re taking sides as to who goes with Bishop Fellay and who goes with Bishop Williamson. The language and tone being used is not that of the saints, but that of politicians. It’s filled with ugly anger, not righteous indignation over a real injustice. There are actual comments about the state of people’s souls, which we must never make. There is glee and celebration at the prospect of seeing the Vatican II generation die off.

When I look at that behavior and then I look a true reformers in the Church’s history, I see a grave discrepancy in holiness. I would rather see people doing more penance, more prayer, more for their family and for the poor and forget what this document says or that one. At the end of time we will be asked what we did for these the least of his brothers, not what we read and how intensely we debated.

Heaven is not earned by mental gymnastics. Heaven is earned by true penance and love. Words and actions must convey the inner life of penance and love. We can’t say that we’re penitent and that we love, while we tear each other to shreds. Do you see what I mean?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[JReducation]

As soon as people stop demanding that traditional Catholics “accept” Vatican II, then traditional Catholics won’t ever worry about it again.

You’re going to have to speak to the pope about that one my friend. At the moment, the most we can do is ask questions, not reject. The Holy Father has made this quite clear.

There is room for dialogue, but not for rejection. Rome is adamant on that one. At the end of the day, who runs the Church? It’s not you or I.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[YoungTradCath]

You’re going to have to speak to the pope about that one my friend. At the moment, the most we can do is ask questions, not reject. The Holy Father has made this quite clear.

There is room for dialogue, but not for rejection. Rome is adamant on that one. At the end of the day, who runs the Church? It’s not you or I.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

But the monster in the closet is, how do you accept Vatican II?

 

[clem456]

I find the actual documents of Vatican 2 to be profound, moving, and stirring for the heart. I recommend any Catholic to take the considerable time to read the actual documents.

 

[Moore11]

The EF is not a problem. The mass is never a stumbling block to sanctity. What becomes a stumbling block to sanctity are other things.

1. The time and energy invested in debates, which belong to prayer, family, and the poor.
2. The excessive preocupation with documents that other very holy men and women don’t know they exist and if they do know, they could care less, because there are things in their present enviornment that need their attention, as Timothy said: the parish needs a new coat of paint. The dying are alone in hospice. The unwed mother is feeling hopeless, but there are not enough volunteers are a crisis pregnancy center. The Blessed Sacrament is sitting alone in a tabernacle waiting for a visit. The bishops need our support to stop the HHS mandate. The list of situations in which Christ is voiceless and needs our attention is quite long.
3. The fact that this debates often escalate into hateful comments.
4. The struggle for power and control in the Church instead of journeying into the mind of God.
5. The absence of inner silence.

As one who’s primary ministry is the care of souls, these things cause me great concern. I recently saw on another site where they’re taking sides as to who goes with Bishop Fellay and who goes with Bishop Williamson. The language and tone being used is not that of the saints, but that of politicians. It’s filled with ugly anger, not righteous indignation over a real injustice. There are actual comments about the state of people’s souls, which we must never make. There is glee and celebration at the prospect of seeing the Vatican II generation die off.

When I look at that behavior and then I look a true reformers in the Church’s history, I see a grave discrepancy in holiness. I would rather see people doing more penance, more prayer, more for their family and for the poor and forget what this document says or that one. At the end of time we will be asked what we did for these the least of his brothers, not what we read and how intensely we debated.

Heaven is not earned by mental gymnastics. Heaven is earned by true penance and love. Words and actions must convey the inner life of penance and love. We can’t say that we’re penitent and that we love, while we tear each other to shreds. Do you see what I mean?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

1 That could be said for anything that is not prayer family and the poor. Including but not limited to sports, movies, politics, and board games.

2 I hope your argument is not “pay no mind to the documents, just help the poor”

3 Which only points out that something needs to be worked through to help people and their relationship with God.

4 I don’t see it as cynical as that. The hard fought and argued beliefs and visions are just as much a part of one’s “journey” with God as any sort of prayer. When we seek to understand or advocate our understanding and view of God with others both sides grow.

5 This is similar to #1

Brother, I know what your point is and it is a good one but several times you have pointed this out but also been the source of countless hours of information to these boards. I defer to your wisdom and knowledge especially since I know almost nothing of these things but as an outsider, sometimes, your point can be mistaken for a shot at those who sincerely care about such things.

As for "does it help us become holy?’ in my case, yes. I am learning a lot about how the Church thinks, works, and debates. Such things in a charitable context are just as important as the temporal things which you defend. When you understand what the Church thinks about liturgy, and salvation, you can practice faith better yourself and V2 is a huge source of debate about those topics.

To assume that those who care deeply about these documents and how they have been manipulated on both sides do not achieve holiness is too much for me. If people want to have this be the hill they die on then perhaps that is what God has laid on their hearts.

Brother, there is a struggle in the Church, there always has been and will be until God deems it finished. Those who choose to fight the battle on this front should not be looked down upon bu those who choose to fight it elsewhere.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I find the actual documents of Vatican 2 to be profound, moving, and stirring for the heart. I recommend any Catholic to take the considerable time to read the actual documents.

I find them too similar to novel-type writing to get concrete requirements from them. It’s beautiful writing, especially in Latin, but… is writing a novel good for interpretation? No, methinks.

 

[clem456]

I find them too similar to novel-type writing to get concrete requirements from them. It’s beautiful writing, especially in Latin, but… is writing a novel good for interpretation? No, methinks.

I’m not really referring to the prose but to the truth contained therein, that appeals to the heart, stirs the conscience, reaffirms and adds to the fullness of the truth we instinctively know.

 

[TimothyH]

But the monster in the closet is, how do you accept Vatican II?

You close your eyes and say, “Heavenly Father, you know I love you. Please help me to accept the teaching in the Vatican II documents. Amen.”

And then you move on with the rest of your life.

-Tim-

 

[clem456]

But the monster in the closet is, how do you accept Vatican II?

I recommend “Sources of Renewal, Implementing Vatican 2” by Karol Wojtyla. I found this to be Orthodox and breathed life into the teaching of the Church. It was not easy reading for me but…it was worth it.

 

[wasserfall]

You’re going to have to speak to the pope about that one my friend. At the moment, the most we can do is ask questions, not reject. The Holy Father has made this quite clear.

There is room for dialogue, but not for rejection. Rome is adamant on that one. At the end of the day, who runs the Church? It’s not you or I.

Just so I’m not misunderstood, the problem isn’t that anyone is saying “we refuse to accept Vatican II.”

The problem is that people are demanding “you must accept Vatican II” when no one has a clue what that is supposed to mean or to entail.

 

[wasserfall]

You close your eyes and say, "Heavenly Father, you know I love you. Please help me to accept the teaching in the Vatican II documents. Amen.

What teaching is one accepting in this case? What specifically?

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

As for "does it help us become holy?’ in my case, yes. I am learning a lot about how the Church thinks, works, and debates. Such things in a charitable context are just as important as the temporal things which you defend.

I absolutely agree. The Church has always been rational, logical, and intellectual. I’m certainly glad that no one went up to the Angelic Doctor, St. Thomas Aquinas, while he was composing the “Summa” and told him that he was missing out on holiness because he was engaged in intellectual pursuits instead of spending all of his time serving the poor.

There are many paths to holiness within Holy Mother Church. Mother Teresa’s path was absolute service to the poor. St. Thomas Aquinas’ path was intense intellectual theology. St. John of the Cross’ path was mystical theology. On, and on, and on. We shouldn’t condemn each other for the path upon which God calls us to holiness. There are overlaps, for sure (everyone is called to help the poor, everyone is called to understand the Faith), but where we choose to dive deeper is between us and God.

To assume that those who care deeply about these documents and how they have been manipulated on both sides do not achieve holiness is too much for me.

It is too much for me, too.

Brother, there is a struggle in the Church, there always has been and will be until God deems it finished. Those who choose to fight the battle on this front should not be looked down upon bu those who choose to fight it elsewhere.

Indeed. Let us pray for each other, upon whatever front we have chosen to fight.

• PAX

 

[clem456]

Just so I’m not misunderstood, the problem isn’t that anyone is saying “we refuse to accept Vatican II.”

The problem is that people are demanding “you must accept Vatican II” when no one has a clue what that is supposed to mean or to entail.

Not specifically addressing your circumstance, but for me, understanding Church teaching requires a tremendous amount of study, reflection, and prayer. For instance, take the word “subsists”, which in it’s context drew much misguided criticism in recent years from the media etc…these things take some chewing on to absorb.

V2 was also very challenging to me personally, to the ingrained attitudes I grew up with.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Indeed. Let us pray for each other, upon whatever front we have chosen to fight.

Certainly there is more than one path to holiness within the church. I think what Br JR was referring to however is those who bring the fight to within the church - fighting against fellow Catholics - and think that somehow they will acheive holiness through that path.

 

[ProVobis]

I think it would be a bit of an overstatement to say that the mainstream is one billion good brother. Sure, one billion are technically part of the Church through baptism, but the majority of them don’t follow or believe the Church’s teachings, and as we know only 5-20% attend Mass in the West. I think Fr. Kung has quite a bit of influence in Western Europe, but probably not in East Asia or Africa!

If my math is correct, about 600 to 700 MILLION Catholics don’t attend Mass. But we’re calling out some 1 million, some who drive hours to Mass, on their disobedience. Go figure.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

Certainly there is more than one path to holiness within the church. I think what Br JR was referring to however is those who bring the fight to within the church - fighting against fellow Catholics - and think that somehow they will acheive holiness through that path.

Perhaps. I’ll allow him to clarify his ideas. It seemed pretty clear that he was contrasting intellectual pursuits against helping the poor and finding the former lacking in holiness. My contention is that there is and must be room in the Church for both (and other paths).

It’s similar to the active vs. contemplative path. One could say that it is more important to help the poor and cloistered monastics, such as the Carthusians, are not doing their part. But this would be a great misunderstanding, since the Church has affirmed that the contemplative path is the higher path, but it is obviously not the path for everyone. (please note that I am not saying that anyone has made a claim about active/contemplative paths… I’m just using this as an example)

Hmmmm, this makes me wonder if this could be one way to describe the OF/EF differences. The EF, like the Carthusians, is the greater path, but not for everyone?

Thomas Merton has a book called “Contemplation in a World of Action.” Perhaps someone could write a book called “The EF in a World of OF”

• PAX

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

If my math is correct, about 600 to 700 MILLION Catholics don’t attend Mass. But we’re calling out some 1 million, some who drive hours to Mass, on their disobedience. Go figure.

 

[Cristiano]

If my math is correct, about 600 to 700 MILLION Catholics don’t attend Mass. But we’re calling out some 1 million, some who drive hours to Mass, on their disobedience. Go figure.

There are quite a few of criminal willing to drive hours to rob a bank, does that justify them? No! So driving is not a sign of holiness. What is the ratio of obedient Catholics over the SSPX? Does that make a difference? Not really! I firmly believe that most of the Catholics either obedient or not do not care about Kung, however he is the boogie man for quite a few people that want to justify their bad attitudes. It really amazes me that people still try to justify their wrongs by pointing fingers to someone else. The Pope does not fall for the “two wrongs make a right” fallacy, he much smarter than that.

 

[ProVobis]

So driving is not a sign of holiness.

Apparently you’ve never been stuck in Chicago traffic.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

There are quite a few of criminal willing to drive hours to rob a bank, does that justify them? No! So driving is not a sign of holiness. What is the ratio of obedient Catholics over the SSPX? Does that make a difference? Not really! I firmly believe that most of the Catholics either obedient or not do not care about Kung, however he is the boogie man for quite a few people that want to justify their bad attitudes. It really amazes me that people still try to justify their wrongs by pointing fingers to someone else. The Pope does not fall for the “two wrongs make a right” fallacy, he much smarter than that.

For some, the idea might be “two wrongs make a right.” For others, the point is the frustration that for years it seems liberal dissenters have had free reign in the church while traditional dissenters, on a much more smaller scale, have been dealt with more harshly. This discrepancy (treat the smaller traditional dissenters harsher than the larger and more vocal liberal dissenters) seems to show that liberal dissent will be tolerated, which in turn seems to show that liberal heresy will be tolerated, but traditional dissent will receive the “smack down.”

Therein lies the frustration.

• PAX