SSPX Mass and their Sacraments

[ProVobis]

The Second Vatican Council was a wonderful manifestation of the Holy Spirit preparing the Church to reach out to modern man, through among other things its updated liturgy, which has made the Mass more assessible for all Catholics.

Didn’t you read where V2 invited (and listened to) many of those that were considered heretics by Pope Pius XII? How would the Holy Spirit be part of this anti-Pius XII movement?

 

[ProVobis]

It permitted as well versus populem masses, concelebration without bishops, and deleted the order of subdeacon from the Roman Church, but not the Eastern Churches.

Where is this documented?

 

[maurin]

In reply to the last comment, I would like to affirm the Catholic faith that Christ is with His Church until the end of the world. The Second Vatican Council was a wonderful manifestation of the Holy Spirit preparing the Church to reach out to modern man, through among other things its updated liturgy, which has made the Mass more assessible for all Catholics.

If the Holy Spirit were manifested at the Council, why are we today suffering the cult of man rather than worshipping in the Cult of God?

 

[franklinf]

In reply to the last comment, I would like to affirm the Catholic faith that Christ is with His Church until the end of the world. The Second Vatican Council was a wonderful manifestation of the Holy Spirit preparing the Church to reach out to modern man, through among other things its updated liturgy, which has made the Mass more assessible for all Catholics.

Reach out to modern man? What?

And if its “updated liturgy…has made Mass more accessible for all Catholics,” how come Mass attendance and vocations are down?

 

[Eric_Olsen]

T
And why do they lack the faculties? Because they were SUSPENDED by the Pope!!!

WRONG! The local bishop grants the faculties to hear confession!

So that just means that you have a horse in the race. Me? I side with the Church and the Holy Father.

And by the way, how can you “hear the priest” when the Canon of the Latin Mass is silent??? Is this some kind of abuse???

you can hear the priest at other points in the mass.
the consecration is the most solemn part of the mass and the laity are supposed to be either praying or reading the consecration in their missals.

 

[Cid]

Yes, the Church is suffering a trial today, but it is not because of any doctrinal problems. Rather, it is because it pleases the Lord to purify His Church, so that it can become smaller and holier.
Disobedient groups such as the SSPX know who they are, they know what they stand for and they will receive punishment from the Lord on the Day when he comes again. Pride was our first reason to fall as a race and it is still master of many a heart today. Repent and believe the Good News! Let it not be said that you were found to have been fighting the Church when at last you stand before the Lord of Life.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

In reply to the last comment, I would like to affirm the Catholic faith that Christ is with His Church until the end of the world. The Second Vatican Council was a wonderful manifestation of the Holy Spirit preparing the Church to reach out to modern man, through among other things its updated liturgy, which has made the Mass more assessible for all Catholics.

Yes, the Church is suffering a trial today, but it is not because of any doctrinal problems. Rather, it is because it pleases the Lord to purify His Church, so that it can become smaller and holier.

These two posts don’t seem to make sense together. I wonder, Cid, is it your position that V2 was a great thing that resulted in a more accessible and updated liturgy or that the Holy Spirit mucked up the Council on purpose in order to purify the Church?

 

[WhollyRoamin]

is it your position that V2 was a great thing that resulted in a more accessible and updated liturgy or that the Holy Spirit mucked up the Council on purpose in order to purify the Church?

There is a joke that when the late Pope John XIII died, he stood before St. Peter at the gates of Heaven. St. Peter asked his name, the late pontiff replied “John 23”. Peter looked at the clipboard and said “I’m sorry, you’re not on the list”. John looked astounded and said “I was the pope! Let me see your manager!”

Peter replied that he worked for the Holy Spirit and that he’d page him. When the paraclete arrived, the Holy Spirit asked, “who are you again?” John said “What? I don’t believe this. I’m Pope John XXIII, pontiff of the Holy Catholic Church. I convened the Second Vatican Council!”

The Holy Spirit gasped and said “Ohh! Vatican Two! Dang, I was supposed to go to that!”

 

[maurin]

Reach out to modern man? What?

And if its “updated liturgy…has made Mass more accessible for all Catholics,” how come Mass attendance and vocations are down?

Yes, the Church is suffering a trial today, but it is not because of any doctrinal problems. Rather, it is because it pleases the Lord to purify His Church, so that it can become smaller and holier.

really, no doctrinal problems? When did Mass become a spectacle for entertaining the masses, and not a making present again of the One and Only Sacrifice of our Lord? When did the Altar become simply a table? The Body and Blood of Our Lord become bread and wine handled by anyone? The people the focal point of the Mass and not God?

Not only is Mass attendance and Vocations down–or do you deny these facts, Cid, but haven’t some Bishops been closing down and selling off some Parish Churches in order to help pay for their predecessor’s criminally complicit acts?

Disobedient groups such as the SSPX know who they are

and know so out of love for the Church

they know what they stand for

unfortunately, you do not or you would be behind them, those like you who claim to love the Church, yet defend the cult of man that the spirit of VII has become.

and they will receive punishment from the Lord on the Day when he comes again.

punishment or reward? for all the SSPX does is to continue what the Church has done and taught for millenia: The Cult of God.

Pride was our first reason to fall as a race and it is still master of many a heart today. Repent and believe the Good News! Let it not be said that you were found to have been fighting the Church when at last you stand before the Lord of Life.

Let it not be said that you were found facilitating the cult of man rather than the Cult of God when you find yourself before Him.

 

[Cid]

Maurin, I only hope that when it comes to Judgement that we will not be on opposite sides, as seems to be the case here.

Know that I am doing what Catholics from the beginning have done. I am obedient to the Pope and the teachings of the Church. I put my trust in St Patrick and a tradition of simple people who submit to the ordinary authority of the Pope and all the bishops who are in union with him.

If you must question, then question your position because it compares to Protestantism in that you do not need a Pope for determining what is right.

Some Catholic parishes might be misguided in how they implement the Second Vatican Council but it is better to be within the right sheep fold than to be on the outside looking in.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Some Catholic parishes might be misguided in how they implement the Second Vatican Council but it is better to be within the right sheep fold than to be on the outside looking in.

Sorry to be beating up on you today, Cid, but can you explain how those who are still misguided by V2, roughly 40 years after the fact and after many continuing attempts to set them straight, are still “within the right sheep fold?” They may be “in the fold” in name, but with some, it’s in name only.

And I’d still like to get a response to my previous question, so I can understand where you’re coming from on these issues.

 

[ProVobis]

you can hear the priest at other points in the mass.
the consecration is the most solemn part of the mass and the laity are supposed to be either praying or reading the consecration in their missals.

The EF provides enough priestly gestures/rubrics for the congregation to know precisely what he’s praying.

 

[ProVobis]

Disobedient groups such as the SSPX know who they are, they know what they stand for and they will receive punishment from the Lord on the Day when he comes again. Pride was our first reason to fall as a race and it is still master of many a heart today. Repent and believe the Good News! Let it not be said that you were found to have been fighting the Church when at last you stand before the Lord of Life.

And perhaps you can provide some wisdom as to the great thing about the “for all” Mass too?

 

[maurin]

Maurin, I only hope that when it comes to Judgement that we will not be on opposite sides, as seems to be the case here.

Know that I am doing what Catholics from the beginning have done. I am obedient to the Pope and the teachings of the Church. I put my trust in St Patrick and a tradition of simple people who submit to the ordinary authority of the Pope and all the bishops who are in union with him.

I put my trust in this Pope, my friend. And no, you are not doing what Catholics have from the beginning done. You are doing what Catholics have from 1970 done. And why, may I ask, are Bishops who refuse the Traditional Mass and Teachings to the Faithful who request it, after the Pope asked them to be generous in applying his Motu Proprio do you consider them to be in Communion with the Pope?

If you must question, then question your position because it compares to Protestantism in that you do not need a Pope for determining what is right.

au contraire, Cid, the New Mass as it is played out in many many Parishes, contrary to the GIRM, compare with Protestantism. But are those Priests in my Diocese who allow lay people to ‘preach’ at the Homily in full Communion with Rome? How about the many Priests who as a matter of course preach that sexual sins as defined by the Church are not a matter for the Church to decide, but are matters between the individual and God?

Some Catholic parishes might be misguided in how they implement the Second Vatican Council but it is better to be within the right sheep fold than to be on the outside looking in.

Some Catholic Parishes…I’m glad you don’t get out more…you’d be truly frightened.

Pope Benedict, by the way–if you have bothered to read his accompanying letter to the Motu Proprio-- described the SSPX’s status as "an internal matter of reconciliation within the Church. I’m on the inside, young man. You’re welcome in anytime.

 

[Cid]

We may be in some sort of “friendly fire” thing but then it is ok to defend a position that seems to be threated. I hope you all are distancing yourselves from the SSPX until such time as they have been brought into a regular relationship with the Church…it would seem to be the safe thing to do.

We do not live in a perfect Church community but we do live in a doctrinely perfect Church that has a liturgy that has always changed from the earliest days without compromising the core nature of these acts of worship. People in parishes can make mistakes regarding the implementation of the Second Vatican Council but their deviation away from its norms and the resultant spiritual sicknesses that follow highlight the wisdom of the Council Fathers. We would all be better off if we read and digested the wisdom and spirit of this great council. Length of years in holding a particular opinion is no sign of wisdom, we need to go the core sources of our faith and this council is one of the richest.

The council was like a woman putting on lipstick. The Church has become more attractive and is sending out the right signals as it has updated itself so as to relate better to the world in this modern age.

We should put our trust in the Pope and the bishops, do our duty to the Church, keep the Ten Commandments and someday we will die and find out that the twentieth century was just part of God’s plan for bringing a greater good out of the Devil’s evil deeds. Jesus made His Church really easy: Just sit tight and don’t rock the boat.

 

[nmoerbeek]

Yes, the Church is suffering a trial today, but it is not because of any doctrinal problems. Rather, it is because it pleases the Lord to purify His Church, so that it can become smaller and holier.
Disobedient groups such as the SSPX know who they are, they know what they stand for and they will receive punishment from the Lord on the Day when he comes again. Pride was our first reason to fall as a race and it is still master of many a heart today. Repent and believe the Good News! Let it not be said that you were found to have been fighting the Church when at last you stand before the Lord of Life.

Wrong it was disobedience.

The angels fell from pride.

 

[nmoerbeek]

We may be in some sort of “friendly fire” thing but then it is ok to defend a position that seems to be threated. I hope you all are distancing yourselves from the SSPX until such time as they have been brought into a regular relationship with the Church…it would seem to be the safe thing to do.

We do not live in a perfect Church community but we do live in a doctrinely perfect Church that has a liturgy that has always changed from the earliest days without compromising the core nature of these acts of worship. People in parishes can make mistakes regarding the implementation of the Second Vatican Council but their deviation away from its norms and the resultant spiritual sicknesses that follow highlight the wisdom of the Council Fathers. We would all be better off if we read and digested the wisdom and spirit of this great council. Length of years in holding a particular opinion is no sign of wisdom, we need to go the core sources of our faith and this council is one of the richest.

The council was like a woman putting on lipstick. The Church has become more attractive and is sending out the right signals as it has updated itself so as to relate better to the world in this modern age.

We should put our trust in the Pope and the bishops, do our duty to the Church, keep the Ten Commandments and someday we will die and find out that the twentieth century was just part of God’s plan for bringing a greater good out of the Devil’s evil deeds. Jesus made His Church really easy: Just sit tight and don’t rock the boat.

If St John of the Cross and St Theresa of Avilia had not rocked the boat they would have never reformed their orders.

St Marina rocked the boat so much at her convent their was an uprising and they put her in involuntary confinement.

Do not forget Opes Dei rocked the boat, St. Padre Pio rocked the boat and so on and so forth.

These people all had various visions, blessings and graces from God. No one here feels we are their equals.

But we are obedient to God first. Out of our obedience to God we are obedient to his Shepard’s, princes and leaders. We are never just obedient to men.

 

[maurin]

The council was like a woman putting on lipstick. The Church has become more attractive and is sending out the right signals as it has updated itself so as to relate better to the world in this modern age.

Lk 6:26 Woe to you when all speak well of you, for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way.+

Mt 5:10-11 Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you falsely because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

(a woman putting on lipstick–really? this is an analogy appropriate to the Church? )

We should put our trust in the Pope and the bishops, do our duty to the Church, keep the Ten Commandments and someday we will die and find out that the twentieth century was just part of God’s plan for bringing a greater good out of the Devil’s evil deeds. Jesus made His Church really easy: Just sit tight and don’t rock the boat.

yes, but wasn’t it the Pope and the bishops whose duty it was to keep the Faith intact, instead of trying to make it more appealing to the heretics…excuse me, I mean separated brethren? For every protestant converted by this new Mass and its lex orandi lex credendi, how many hundreds if not thousands of Catholics left the Church? How many dwindling congregations’ Parishes closed down and merged?

 

[franklinf]

We may be in some sort of “friendly fire” thing but then it is ok to defend a position that seems to be threated. I hope you all are distancing yourselves from the SSPX until such time as they have been brought into a regular relationship with the Church…it would seem to be the safe thing to do.

We do not live in a perfect Church community but we do live in a doctrinely perfect Church that has a liturgy that has always changed from the earliest days without compromising the core nature of these acts of worship. People in parishes can make mistakes regarding the implementation of the Second Vatican Council but their deviation away from its norms and the resultant spiritual sicknesses that follow highlight the wisdom of the Council Fathers. We would all be better off if we read and digested the wisdom and spirit of this great council. Length of years in holding a particular opinion is no sign of wisdom, we need to go the core sources of our faith and this council is one of the richest.

The council was like a woman putting on lipstick. The Church has become more attractive and is sending out the right signals as it has updated itself so as to relate better to the world in this modern age.

We should put our trust in the Pope and the bishops, do our duty to the Church, keep the Ten Commandments and someday we will die and find out that the twentieth century was just part of God’s plan for bringing a greater good out of the Devil’s evil deeds. Jesus made His Church really easy: Just sit tight and don’t rock the boat.

I don’t know how to split up the quotes, so forgive me if my response is confusing. Each separate para is a response to each para from the quoted section.

Nothing to do but pray for the regularization of the SSPX. While I personally have qualms with some of their actions, I can recognize the good that they have done. The SSPX has played a large role in the liberation of the TLM and they have brought Tradition to many who would otherwise have done without.

Yes the liturgy has changed from the beginning but Vatican II changed the ‘how.’ Prior to Vatican II the liturgy organically grew. Vatican II caused a rupture with the past by creating an entirely new liturgy by committee. It went from a organically grown liturgy to a purely man-made one! Also, how do deviations from the norm and resultant spiritual weakness highlight the wisdom of Council Fathers??? They were the catalyst! Without Vatican II there would be no N.O. Mass, which opened the door to deviations by the very basis of its rubrics. The Council Fathers were the ones who acquiesced and allowed deviations to be normalized (women altar servers, emHC, vernacular, versus populem). As for the last part, Tradition is Sacred. Our core sources of our Faith have been around for a while. Length is important.

I agree with Maurin. That analogy seems unsuited for Holy Mother Church. The Church doesn’t need to update itself. Truth is Truth. Holy is Holy. Faith is Faith. Regardless of how secular or “modern” the world is. Also, if it has “updated itself” to relate better, why are vocations down? Why is Mass attendance down?

 

[pnewton]

The Church doesn’t need to update itself. Truth is Truth. Holy is Holy. Faith is Faith. Regardless of how secular or “modern” the world is. Also, if it has “updated itself” to relate better, why are vocations down? Why is Mass attendance down?

Vatican II was not the very first Church council. The Church does change. That is a historical fact. Call it what you will, but each council responded to situations specific to the time and controversies that existed only. It is wrong to assume that we should go back and try to be just like the Church of the first century in every detail, as most traditionalists believe. What is often missed is why this is an error. It denies the influence of the Holy Spirit upon the Church. Likewise, to claim that the Church should never change from Trent onward, or from the fifties onward. The question should never be* if* the Church changes, but how much the Church should change or in what ways.

You are right, though, that that we must never sacrifice Truth for the sake of accommadation. As far as vocations, statistics have been done to death, with both sides slanting them. But if you really want to know where vocations are, Africa I believe is the strongest place for them.