SSPX mass OK?

[jfoges]

Perhaps in your world it is. But not in the English, Latin, or ecclesial world. The only ones who use “illegal” are those who don’t know what they are talking about - the overnight experts like CNN, the AP, and the New York Times

I speak English and I am pretty sure illegal and illicit mean the same thing. If not, tell us the difference.

 

[pnewton]

Perhaps in your world it is. But not in the English, Latin, or ecclesial world. The only ones who use “illegal” are those who don’t know what they are talking about - the overnight experts like CNN, the AP, and the New York Times

Don’t forget Msgr. Perl

1. Therefore, all the sacraments offered by Society of St. Pius X priests, with the exception of Penance and Matrimony, are valid, but illicit,** meaning “illegal**.”

 

[jfoges]

I see some people have made the point that SSPX is not schismatic because the Holy See has come out and said that some people in SSPX are schmismatic and some aren’t depending on their disposition and reasons for participating. Isn’t the mere possibility of being schismatic enough to stay away? Why would anyone who considers themselves a faithful Catholic want to associate with a group that is considered partially schismatic, whose bishops and priests have been suspended, and some of whose sacraments are invalid, all of them being illicit?

The SSPX is a dangerous group that has a distorted understanding of Vatican II. They incorrectly think that Vatican II is inconsistent with previous Church teaching, and that it is a pastoral rather than a dogmatic council. This is totally false. The documents of Vatican II, especially the DOGMATIC constitutions of the second vatican ECUMENICAL council are totally consistent with all the Church has ever taught. They expressed in a powerful and amazing way the treasure of what the Apostles handed down to us. SSPX is a continuation of a movement within the Church that incorrectly opposed certain ideas as liberal or modernist when they actually were not. This movement is sometimes referred to as the intransigenti or the ultramontanes. You must accept the Council and the wisdom of Peter in promulgating the current Roman Missal, as Padre Pio did, and as all faithful Catholics have done.

 

[ProVobis]

Isn’t the mere possibility of being schismatic enough to stay away?

Oh geez, and there’s absolutely no chance that your local parishioners don’t have schismatic thoughts from time to time?

Why would anyone who considers themselves a faithful Catholic want to associate with a group that is considered partially schismatic, whose bishops and priests have been suspended, and some of whose sacraments are invalid, all of them being illicit?

Because Canon Law allows them to fulfill the important Sunday obligation there? The obligation trumps whatever state of suspension or schismatic level or sanctifying grace of those who say Mass there.

The SSPX is a dangerous group that has a distorted understanding of Vatican II. They incorrectly think that Vatican II is inconsistent with previous Church teaching

There are apparently many bishops who hold that position. Say what you want but the SSPX are completely Catholic and are free to go to confession and receive communion just like you and me and your fellow parishioners, no matter what we all think of Vatican II.

 

[Lycorth]

There are apparently many bishops who hold that position. Say what you want but the SSPX are completely Catholic and are free to go to confession and receive communion just like you and me and your fellow parishioners, no matter what we all think of Vatican II.

Amen!

If they were such a horrible group, talks would not be underway between them and the Vatican. Heck, the SSPX would not have led a pilgrimage to Rome for the Jubilee if they were so schismatic - they would have stayed away.

 

[jfoges]

Oh geez, and there’s absolutely no chance that your local parishioners don’t have schismatic thoughts from time to time?

Because Canon Law allows them to fulfill the important Sunday obligation there? The obligation trumps whatever state of suspension or schismatic level or sanctifying grace of those who say Mass there.

There are apparently many bishops who hold that position. Say what you want but the SSPX are completely Catholic and are free to go to confession and receive communion just like you and me and your fellow parishioners, no matter what we all think of Vatican II.

There are no bishops in the world who are in communion with the Holy See who do not accept the authority and validity of Vatican II. If such a bishop were to exist and publicly express his views he would quickly be disciplined by the Pope. Such views are totally unacceptable and are not at all in line with what the Church teaches.

Sure there are laity and possibly clergy in parishes that may hold incorrect views, but an association that promotes incorrect views is another thing entirely. Also, I think you are misunderstanding the talks that are taking place. The Pope wants to bring SSPX back into the Church, but that doesn’t mean he agrees with their points or accepts any validity to their points.

 

[mick321]

…
Why would anyone who considers themselves a faithful Catholic want to associate with a group that is considered partially schismatic, whose bishops and priests have been suspended, and some of whose sacraments are invalid, all of them being illicit?
…

Why?

More than a year ago, His Holiness Benedict XVI ordered the Congregation of Bishops to disabuse itself of the ill-advised sanction of excommunication which it had previously leveled against four bishops of the Society of Saint Pius X. The Holy Father went on to express his desire to bring the Society into full communion with the Church and has since opened a discussions to expedite that goal.

After more than two decades of enduring so much carping about who or what is valid, licit, legitimate, schismatic, heretical, suspended, excommunicated or not, the leadership of the SSPX remains dedicated to the preservation of the Classical Roman Liturgy: the pinnacle of our authentic Catholic Culture and Faith. As such, they are deserving of the highest level of support that we - as faithful Catholics - can provide during the transitional period.

In the meantime, I invite you to attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at your local SSPX chapel and report your findings here. If you dare.

Peace.

 

[jfoges]

Why?

More than a year ago, His Holiness Benedict XVI ordered the Congregation of Bishops to disabuse itself of the ill-advised sanction of excommunication which it had previously leveled against four bishops of the Society of Saint Pius X. The Holy Father went on to express his desire to bring the Society into full communion with the Church and has since opened a discussions to expedite that goal.

After more than two decades of enduring so much carping about who or what is valid, licit, legitimate, schismatic, heretical, suspended, excommunicated or not, the leadership of the SSPX remains dedicated to the preservation of the Classical Roman Liturgy: the pinnacle of our authentic Catholic Culture and Faith. As such, they are deserving of the highest level of support that we - as faithful Catholics - can provide during the transitional period.

In the meantime, I invite you to attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at your local SSPX chapel and report your findings here. If you dare.

Peace.

The Roman liturgy is celebrated every day at every single parish near me. There is nothing inferior about the current Roman Missal, and the so called Tridentine mass is not superior or more grandiose. This whole line of reasoning is flawed to the core.

 

[Lycorth]

The Roman liturgy is celebrated every day at every single parish near me. There is nothing inferior about the current Roman Missal, and the so called Tridentine mass is not superior or more grandiose. This whole line of reasoning is flawed to the core.

Clearly you’ve never beheld a Tridentine Mass.

I’ve only seen them on YouTube and they dwarf any OF Mass in terms of classic beauty and reverence.

Little wonder it was the way of things for centuries.

 

[jfoges]

Clearly you’ve never beheld a Tridentine Mass.

I’ve only seen them on YouTube and they dwarf any OF Mass in terms of classic beauty and reverence.

Little wonder it was the way of things for centuries.

I’ve been to so called Tridentine masses before. They are nice, but I prefer the current mass. Part of it is I like to understand what is being said. But so many parts of the two masses are identical or very similar. the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Orate Fratres, the Pater Noster, the Agnus Dei.

 

[Lycorth]

I’ve been to so called Tridentine masses before. They are nice, but I prefer the current mass. Part of it is I like to understand what is being said. But so many parts of the two masses are identical or very similar. the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Orate Fratres, the Pater Noster, the Agnus Dei.

Oh, of course; the OF is derived from the Tridentine.

But anyone can understand what is going on at a Tridentine Mass. Most missals are printed in both Latin and the vernacular. Moreover, the customs and forms used are much more respectful and don’t lend themselves to corruption as easily, since a dead tongue cannot have its meanings perverted and it not subject to the changes and whims of the vernacular.

It goes much deeper than just using a different language for the liturgy. I have likened it to how a .22 handgun is just as much a valid handgun as one chambered in .45 but it is not nearly as suitable for self-defense as the .45 is.

 

[jfoges]

Oh, of course; the OF is derived from the Tridentine.

But anyone can understand what is going on at a Tridentine Mass. Most missals are printed in both Latin and the vernacular. Moreover, the customs and forms used are much more respectful and don’t lend themselves to corruption as easily, since a dead tongue cannot have its meanings perverted and it not subject to the changes and whims of the vernacular.

It goes much deeper than just using a different language for the liturgy. I have likened it to how a .22 handgun is just as much a valid handgun as one chambered in .45 but it is not nearly as suitable for self-defense as the .45 is.

I find the current mass more edifying precisely because I can take part more and because it is simpler and more to the point. The tridentine mass is very beautiful and is really a work of art, but I dont think it expresses as clearly the meaning of the mass, the eucharistic sacrifice. Of course part of it depends on the person, but to the average person I would say the new mass is more effective. If someone is a scholar of the tridentine mass or knows latin, they might feel different. That is why I think the Pope in his wisdom has allowed the latin mass more freely for those who want it. However, most don’t seem to want it.

 

[mick321]

The Roman liturgy is celebrated every day at every single parish near me. There is nothing inferior about the current Roman Missal, and the so called Tridentine mass is not superior or more grandiose. This whole line of reasoning is flawed to the core.

If you are able to attend a daily Extraordinary Form mass at every parish in your area - you are indeed fortunate. I’ve got to get out more. What diocese is that? Are you located in North America?.

I made no statement as to the inferiority or need to revise any missal. I am curious as to which Roman Missal you refer? Is it be the one promulgated by Paul VI in 1970 as the definitive text of the reformed liturgy of the Second Vatican Council? Or maybe the v2.0 revision issued in 1975? The JP-II v3.0 revision of 2000? Perhaps the ultramoderne USCCB Missal of 2009 v4.0? I apologize if I missed any.

The Classical Roman Liturgy has been officially designated the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Right. Granted, it’s not for everybody. Those who wish to criticize EF or the Society may benefit from attending a mass or two at one of their chapels. Observe for yourself what takes place. Then commence firing if you must.

As Catholics, we assist in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for the purpose of worshiping and glorifying God. Nothing less. As human beings, our best efforts will always fall short of what He is due.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Don’t forget Msgr. Perl

1. Therefore, all the sacraments offered by Society of St. Pius X priests, with the exception of Penance and Matrimony, are valid, but illicit,** meaning “illegal**.”

He had to give that translation for jfoges.

 

[giuseppeTO]

The Pope wants to bring SSPX back into the Church, but that doesn’t mean he agrees with their points or accepts any validity to their points.

He may agree with more points than you think.

 

[giuseppeTO]

I find the current mass more edifying precisely because I can take part more and because it is simpler .

That is perfectly understandable.

 

[pnewton]

Why?

More than a year ago, His Holiness Benedict XVI ordered the Congregation of Bishops to disabuse itself of the ill-advised sanction of excommunication which it had previously leveled against four bishops of the Society of Saint Pius X.

Here is a link to what happened:

catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope_benedict_lifts_excommunication_of_bishops_ordained_by_lefebvre/

I had to show the truth of what your post referred to. The Holy Father did not call it an “ill-advised sanction” or a “disabuse.” We should stick to the Holy Father’s example of using non-inflammatory rhetoric and leave the rhetoric to those who do not seek to follow Caritas in Veritate.

 

[pnewton]

He had to give that translation for jfoges.

Not to take sides on this, but that was funny. Sometimes it is better to laugh or make a joke than retort.

 

[ProVobis]

because it is simpler

Ah, cmon. It didn’t take a masters degree to understand the EF. Some small children understand it just fine. If you prefer the OF, just say that. You don’t have to call yourself liturgically challenged at every opportunity.

 

[jfoges]

Ah, cmon. It didn’t take a masters degree to understand the EF. Some small children understand it just fine. If you prefer the OF, just say that. You don’t have to call yourself liturgically challenged at every opportunity.

By saying I like the simplicity I don’t mean that I am too ignorant or stupid to understand the EF. I just find the simplicity of the OF more attractive. It is more to the point.