Sspx new alternatives in communion with rome

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I_Believe said:
The way I understand it, the SSPX seeks the excommunications to be lifted before entering into discussions regarding doctrine.

So, the lifting of the excommunications itself will not bring them back into communion immediately.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong about this 😉
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If I am remembering correctly, that’s almost exactly what the SSPX said in the wake of the MP. I know I read it on this board. You might find it if you go back to the first days after the MP.
 
the long and the short of it is that sspx has a scismatic mind set now and will not be comming back no matter what is set down before them. It simply won’t matter. there will always be a core group in scisum. even long after the rest have come home to the holy catholic church. which felley and company seem to think they are on the outside of. This is sad news. This should have been the start of a great renioun in the church. with the sspx picking up the gaultlet, and learning the rather minor changes to the latin rite and then teaching it to the rest of us. we could have become holier together with this. sad that will not happen. again must be the fantasy world I live in where I thought we could live in harmony again. at least the clergy will come back to commioun to the church.
 
down_under said:
the long and the short of it is that sspx has a scismatic mind set now and will not be comming back no matter what is set down before them. It simply won’t matter. there will always be a core group in scisum. even long after the rest have come home to the holy catholic church. which felley and company seem to think they are on the outside of. This is sad news. This should have been the start of a great renioun in the church. with the sspx picking up the gaultlet, and learning the rather minor changes to the latin rite and then teaching it to the rest of us. we could have become holier together with this. sad that will not happen. again must be the fantasy world I live in where I thought we could live in harmony again. at least the clergy will come back to commioun to the church.
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I have been attending a chapel where there are SPPX priests since my return to the RCC. At no time was the concerns just about the form of the Mass. The recent Motu Properio is very welcome but the legalistic underscoring of the requirement that the priest uses both forms is a sticking point. Likewise the excommunication status of the 4 bishops. Doctrinal concerns still exist…

The aknowledgement that the Tridentine Mass is valid is a tremendous step forward…
 
Melanie01 said:
I have been attending a chapel where there are SPPX priests since my return to the RCC. At no time was the concerns just about the form of the Mass. The recent Motu Properio is very welcome but the legalistic underscoring of the requirement that the priest uses both forms is a sticking point. Likewise the excommunication status of the 4 bishops. Doctrinal concerns still exist…

The aknowledgement that the Tridentine Mass is valid is a tremendous step forward…
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So it does not accure to you that you have never actually returned to the catholic faith. You belong to a scismatic sect that admits it is outside of the church. so how do you think you have returned to the faith. I am not mad or emotional or any such thing I am asking an honest question.
 
Woodstock said:
If I am remembering correctly, that’s almost exactly what the SSPX said in the wake of the MP. I know I read it on this board. You might find it if you go back to the first days after the MP.
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That is what they want first it seems, but it also seems they don’t want to bend in any way. They embrace the Pope, but want to call the shots. The “I want it all, and I want it right now” attitude isn’t going to fly. Felay should know this.

VII can be discussed and some wrongs righted, but no one can just make it go away.
 
Sure said:
I don’t think it’s going to happen anytime soon. The Holy Father is not going to just say, “oh yeah, we don’t care about papal mandate anymore, the excommunications are lifted.” The only way they’ll get back is if they admit they were wrong and ask forgiveness. I don’t think Fellay and crew are ever going to get to that point. But I hope I’m wrong.
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I quite agree with your assessment.
 
Sure said:
I don’t think it’s going to happen anytime soon. The Holy Father is not going to just say, “oh yeah, we don’t care about papal mandate anymore, the excommunications are lifted.” The only way they’ll get back is if they admit they were wrong and ask forgiveness. I don’t think Fellay and crew are ever going to get to that point. But I hope I’m wrong.
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Does anyone find it strange that Fellay is the head and mouth for the SSPX (making all of the demands) & that he is one of the 4 promoted by Archbishop Lefebvre?
If I am wrong about him being 1 of the 4, please correct me.
catharina said:
I quite agree with your assessment.
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👍
 
down_under said:
So it does not accure to you that you have never actually returned to the catholic faith. You belong to a scismatic sect that admits it is outside of the church. so how do you think you have returned to the faith. I am not mad or emotional or any such thing I am asking an honest question.
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…ummmmm…of course I have, I am a Catholic first and formost but attend an SPPX chapel…I am not schismatic, how could I be when the Church and the Holy Father are in my daily prayers…just because I do not agree with some of the directions of the church does not put me outside of the church, not on the tenants of faith…beyond that I am neither a canonical lawyer and therefore place my trust in the Lord and His mother.

You can shoot me down if you like but having attended on occasion church services that do not even use the word Mass I am happy to attend where I am, I believe there are good NO services but I have never had the priviledge of witnessing such.
 
Like said:
Does anyone find it strange that Fellay is the head and mouth for the SSPX (making all of the demands) & that he is one of the 4 promoted by Archbishop Lefebvre?
If I am wrong about him being 1 of the 4, please correct me.

👍
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…Bishop Bernard Fellay is the Superior General of the society and therefore speaks on behalf of the members of the society.
 
Melanie01 said:
…Bishop Bernard Fellay is the Superior General of the society and therefore speaks on behalf of the members of the society.
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Sorry Melanie, that didn’t answer my question. I know he position with the SSPX, but I asked if he was one of the 4.🤷
 
Like said:
Sorry Melanie, that didn’t answer my question. I know he position with the SSPX, but I asked if he was one of the 4.🤷
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He’s one of the four consecrated by the late Mgr Lefebvre, yes.

The four don’t necessarily always speak for each other or for all the SSPX, however. Bp Fellay is IMO the most moderate in commenting on the present pope.
 
jj2011 said:
He’s one of the four consecrated by the late Mgr Lefebvre, yes.

The four don’t necessarily always speak for each other or for all the SSPX, however. Bp Fellay is IMO the most moderate in commenting on the present pope.
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Thank you!
God bless
 
Melanie01 said:
…ummmmm…of course I have, I am a Catholic first and formost but attend an SPPX chapel…I am not schismatic, how could I be when the Church and the Holy Father are in my daily prayers…just because I do not agree with some of the directions of the church does not put me outside of the church, not on the tenants of faith…beyond that I am neither a canonical lawyer and therefore place my trust in the Lord and His mother.

You can shoot me down if you like but having attended on occasion church services that do not even use the word Mass I am happy to attend where I am, I believe there are good NO services but I have never had the priviledge of witnessing such.
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I am glad you are thinking about that. keep thinking about it. If you at any time consider yourself part of a schismatic sect then you have a problem. and you need to consider that carefully. This is not a democracy here. To disagree with the pope on a matter dogmatically declared is placeing your self outside of the church. I am not acusing you of anything. I don’t know you. I am not going to pretend I do. Just something to think about for the future. I mean there is a real short fine line between the bishops and clergy being schismatic and the movement being in schism. The heads are talking and that is great. but the articles of VII are not going to be changed. It does not take rocket science to see this. It was a dogmatic council of the whole church. It has yet to be implemented the way the council wrote it. Maybe it would help if you actuall read the council yourself. Not saying you haven’t. but if you haven’t it is not that hard to get your hands on a copy. pretty sure you could read it off EWTN.com. The actual articles as they were written are extraordinary. Just wow. The things that were done in the name of the council pale by comparison. and in some cases were contradictory. It bogles the mind.
 
down_under said:
the long and the short of it is that sspx has a scismatic mind set now and will not be comming back no matter what is set down before them. It simply won’t matter. there will always be a core group in scisum.
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Can you provide evidence for this?

Again, one can be excommunicated without being a schismatic or even of a schismatic mindset. One who commits abortion, for example.

There is no dispute that Bishop Fellay is excommunicated. But that’s a matter he personally has to take up with Rome. The SSPX priests and those attending their Masses don’t have to agree with the bishop’s position.

Ironically, it seems like those pointing fingers at the SSPX have more of a schismatic mindset than the SSPX themselves. Those that I know that attend the SSPX chapel here in Chicago consider themselves very Catholic and are most convinced that they are in union with the Pope.
 
BobP123 said:
Can you provide evidence for this?

Again, one can be excommunicated without being a schismatic or even of a schismatic mindset. One who commits abortion, for example.

There is no dispute that Bishop Fellay is excommunicated. But that’s a matter he personally has to take up with Rome. The SSPX priests and those attending their Masses don’t have to agree with the bishop’s position.
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Has it crossed your mind that being excommunicated is far worse then being in schism. No but if the bishop is excommunicated then that puts serious doubts about everything he does. That means he is setting up his own church. Because Rome has made it plain he is no longer in communion with her. You see me calling it a schism is me being polite. because really there are groups of people who have done this same thing. 10 of thousands of them. I am not wanting you to blow up. I don’t get emotional or angry about things like some do on this site. and sspx is not quite there yet. according to the pope who does have the final say. I hope you all find a way home. before it is to late. that is not some threat. just a serious concern I think about all the time. This could all go either way real easy, but if fellay is not willing to give ground. he is going to eventually get left behind. Perticularly when it concerns actually changing the articles of VII. I just don’t see how that is possible. The arians asked for something remarkably the same. They did not get it either. they tried 27 times as I recall. to the point of changing only the iota. they did not get that either. ahh I ramble now. just some of my thoughts.
 
I keep reading that SSPX and other groups do not really have a problem with Vatican II, but with how it was implemented. But the SSPX crowd reject the teachings of Unitatis Redintegratio, don’t they? Will they ever rejoin a Church that teaches this:
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.
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It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.
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If their only beef was in the way the priest stands during Mass and an insistence on praying in a language no one speaks, we could work things out. But those issues are a smoke screen to cover the real causes of schism, which seem to me much deeper.
 
TMC said:
I keep reading that SSPX and other groups do not really have a problem with Vatican II, but with how it was implemented. But the SSPX crowd reject the teachings of Unitatis Redintegratio, don’t they? Will they ever rejoin a Church that teaches this:
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The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

…
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OK, I’ll paste the meat of the teaching:
These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.
…
separated Churches …have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.

…Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation

If all this is so, and no exceptions are stated, then why would a “separated church” like the SSPX have to join the VAT II church in the first place?

It is clear from VAT II that they are not deprived of the means of salvation at all, even if the VAT II church considers them “deficient”, and “most certainly can truly engender a life of grace.…”

They look and act just like the Roman Catholic Church of say 1962. So, how “deficient” are they?
They reject only VAT II of 1965.

The EO reject a whole host of Councils and the whole dogma of the Papacy to boot. Yet they are also included in this Salvation umbrella.

So why all the concern?
 
TNT said:
OK, I’ll paste the meat of the teaching:
These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.
…
separated Churches …have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.

…Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation

If all this is so, and no exceptions are stated, then why would a “separated church” like the SSPX have to join the VAT II church in the first place?

It is clear form VAT II that they are not deprived of the means of salvation at all, even if the VAT II church considers them “deficient”, and “most certainly can truly engender a life of grace.…”

So why all the concern?
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All very good points. I don’t know why there’s so much bashing the SSPX on these forums. They’re good Catholics who hold to Church Tradition, and the Church has stated several times that they are not in formal schism anyway. There’s less bashing of Catholics who dissent from Church teaching than there is of the SSPX. It is okay to attend their Masses and go to confession at an SSPX parish.
 
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