SSPX not likely to 'come home'

[curlycool89]

Then why does the Vatican say that they are not heretic and I can fulfill my Sunday obligation. Better to go to a suspended priest for mass than to go to a heretic. Here in Germany it is hart to find a priest that is neither.

Your attitude is very un-Catholic. I’d say it’s nearly schismatic actually.

 

[OurBeloved]

I have all the popes on my side and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Your serious flaw here is that you have assumed I or anyone who disagrees with you doesn’t.

So what. That has always been the case since the beginning of the Church— and realize that it will always be the case. Read what was happening in the First Century, or fast-forward to Germany in the 1500s. The fact is that the Church will always teach the truth despite the wrongdoings of both the clergy and laity. In fact, the Church has been quite busy dealing with Catholics who thought they knew better than the Church. All these problems were started by people in the Church, some of whom were priests and bishops:

The Circumcisers (1st Century)
Gnosticism (1st and 2nd Centuries)
Montanism (Late 2nd Century)
Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century)
Arianism (4th Century)
Pelagianism (5th Century)
Semi-Pelagianism (5th Century)
Nestorianism (5th Century)
Monophysitism (5th Century)
Iconoclasm (7th and 8th Centuries)
Catharism (11th Century)
Protestantism (16th Century)
Jansenism (17th Century)

And all these problems are scandals. But the only difference now is that the error is not called out as an error. THAT is what I am pointing the finger at. If a priests wants to preach any heresy, including those listed above, the church will just turn a blind eye. Rarely would a bishop object.

That my friend is a difference that is more similar to the plight of the Levitical priesthood described in the book of Judges.

The problem is not just the clergy, but just as much the laity. But again, nothing in Vatican II council documents are to blame for this. The blame falls upon individual bad and lukewarm Catholics inside the Church, bothy clergy and laity.

The origin of the problem is Clergy. They are doing a bad job taking care of the flock. This is not saying that individuals who do sin are not responsible for the sin. BUT, this is saying that there is a great responsibility on part of Church leaders to correct themselves.

That’s the point: Abuse. Vatican II never taught anything other than the truth. Read the documents. They are brilliant. There’s no question that abuses and misrepresentations of Vatican II have caused problems.

What makes you think I am objecting to Vatican II? I am merely pointing out that there is mass clerical abuse in the West of Vatican II and anything else that came after. The problem here is that the abuse has become mainstream and no one wants to clean house.

So please tell me where in the Vatican II documents does it say that priests should be stand up comedians, discourage Catholic devotions and never mention sins by name or to stop teaching the doctrine of hell?

These are the type of questions Bishop’s should be asking their priests and themselves. The problem here is that neither of them are doing that.

Can you tell me when the Church has not been in crisis? Have you never read the Acts of the Apostles? There were plenty of people inside the Church causing problems.

There were plenty of people causing problems. BUT, the church was also actively pointing out these individuals and warning the faithful against them. Right now, that is not happening. THAT is the objection here.

And that’s the history of the Church. There’s a long list of heresies which the Church has fought–heresies coming from people inside the Church. Heresies have been with us from the Church’s beginning, started by Church leaders, who were then corrected by councils and popes. Vatican II was inspired by the Holy Spirit. I would suggest you make it clear that the issue is not Vatican II but rather individuals in the Church who have misinterpreted the Council.

Once again, you are attacking a straw man. No one is claiming here that the Church was free of heresy at a given time. Rather, the point being raised, at least in the post you replied to, was that today the church is unwilling to even call heresy as heresy.

On the one hand we have the heretics teaching false doctrines, and on the other hand we have the schismatics who shun legitimate authority. SSPX are schismatic and borderline heretics, as they seem to also reject the teachings of the Church. If you read the* Diary of Sister Faustina,* one of the things which displeases Christ the most is disobedience, especially among religious.

The SSPX will have to answer to God for their disobedience. But so will many Catholic Cardinals/Bishops/Priests who act in ways that scandalize these people.

Nonsense. That’s like saying it was unreasonable to ask anyone to join the Church in the First Century because of scandals that rocked the Church back then. Even Jesus said: Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh.

I think you are again misunderstanding what is being said here. If the apostles were all teaching contrary things or acting in ways that didn’t seem to agree with each other, then it causes scandal. It would actually be UNREASONABLE for someone to join the Catholic faith or any other faith if that were the case.

What we have today are people who legitimately have authority i.e. Priests/Bishops/Cardinals who preach and act in ways that contradict with each other as well as with those who went before them.

For a faithful person, there is no guidance as to who to believe.

Take the case of a stand up comedy mass. If a parishioner were to object, then the priest would claim that it is how Vatican II wanted it to be. If said that it does not say that anywhere, the priest would claim that the parishioner doesn’t understand how to read church documents and it best left for those with authority in the church hint: like the priest.

So it is a great scandal when those with authority are left to carry on with error. That sort of scandal has never actually existed in the church before and is fairly new.

Now I am not even going to write separate replies addressing the rest of your post because it seems to attack a straw man i.e. that I am claiming the church must be free from problems. As I have mentioned many times already, the issue here isn’t that the church has problems. The issue here is that the church has becomes lukewarm toward the problems. Those with authority are left unchecked as they teach error. Only thing that seems to raise an eyebrow today in the church is if one of these Priests/Bishops/Cardinals end up abusing a child or sleeps with a woman. Everything else is just accepted.

 

[OurBeloved]

Yes Jam, I don’t understand why there is a focus in FSSPX while some Bishops, Institutes, theologians, etc are still in “good standing” despite their heterodoxy.

Exactly. This is why the Church needs to clean house first or at least start taking action to do so.

 

[OraLabora]

Take the case of a stand up comedy mass…

Speaking of straw men…

To be fair, in the 15 years since I’ve returned from being a lapsed Catholic and have been attending Mass at least weekly, I have seen/heard: bad music, insipid homilies, a priest who forgot his vestments when rushing from one parish to the next in a snowstorm, liturgical errors, priests substituting their own words/inclusive language where not called for, priests who thought they had a good voice, but didn’t and chanted lustily anyway; moving things around in the liturgy, priests who were poor speakers, liturgical committees gone awry, and other errors, omissions, and commissions.

But I’ve never ever seen a “stand-up comedy Mass”. I haven’t even heard outright heresy being preached, at least that I could identify.

I have also though, seen/heard inspiring homilies, enthusiastic parishes with young families, Gregorian chant, Latin, Greek and Hebrew; children making their first communion, quiet-abuse free early morning weekday Masses that really put a great spin on your day, a priest arriving late at Mass because he was called to an emergency baptism but the baby ended up stillborn so he poured his heart out in his homily, carefully choreographed OF liturgies the way Sacrosanctum Concilium intended, and the list goes on.

“Là où il y a l’homme, il y aura l’hommerie” (rough translation: where there is man, there is man’s foibles"). But we are also capable of pulling off some wins.

Given the odds, I tend to go with the Church and the Catechism.

 

[OurBeloved]

Speaking of straw men…

To be fair, in the 15 years since I’ve returned from being a lapsed Catholic and have been attending Mass at least weekly, I have seen/heard: bad music, insipid homilies, a priest who forgot his vestments when rushing from one parish to the next in a snowstorm, liturgical errors, priests substituting their own words/inclusive language where not called for, priests who thought they had a good voice, but didn’t and chanted lustily anyway; moving things around in the liturgy, priests who were poor speakers, liturgical committees gone awry, and other errors, omissions, and commissions.

But I’ve never ever seen a “stand-up comedy Mass”. I haven’t even heard outright heresy being preached, at least that I could identify.

I have also though, seen/heard inspiring homilies, enthusiastic parishes with young families, Gregorian chant, Latin, Greek and Hebrew; children making their first communion, quiet-abuse free early morning weekday Masses that really put a great spin on your day, a priest arriving late at Mass because he was called to an emergency baptism but the baby ended up stillborn so he poured his heart out in his homily, carefully choreographed OF liturgies the way Sacrosanctum Concilium intended, and the list goes on.

“Là où il y a l’homme, il y aura l’hommerie” (rough translation: where there is man, there is man’s foibles"). But we are also capable of pulling off some wins.

Given the odds, I tend to go with the Church and the Catechism.

This is a good example of what happens when you jump-in in the middle of a conversation. I take it you assumed that I equated the new mass with a stand up comedy mass?

To the contrary, I am pointing out how some priests abuse the liturgy so much that they try to crack a joke throughout the mass to make the congregation laugh. That is not a straw man. That is a fact. You know what else is fact? They are not corrected. Instead, the Bishops or Vicar General’s in the parish refer to them as enthusiastic Priests.

 

[benjohnson]

Speaking of straw men…

“Là où il y a l’homme, il y aura l’hommerie” (rough translation: where there is man, there is man’s foibles"). But we are also capable of pulling off some wins.

Given the odds, I tend to go with the Church and the Catechism.

As a protestant, I’ve gone to many Catholic masses with my Catholic friends and by myself. I count myself blessed to have been able to be in attendance at them. Sure, I saw error, omission, and even privately thought that our LC-MS liturgy was more correct in some small areas.

But what I have seen and continue to see in all forms of the Catholic mass is a humility of before God, and a love of God that is inspiring. I see thousands of years of dedication, hope, and faith.

I’ll grant that I could imagine that some Masses could be less than ideal, but when the Lord is truly present like in the Catholic Mass, I think He redeems any perceived errors.

…

For what it’s worth - I do pray that the SSPX comes home to your Catholic church. If it happens, I hope that it becomes an example of Christ’s church unifying.

 

[OraLabora]

To the contrary, I am pointing out how some priests abuse the liturgy so much that they try to crack a joke throughout the mass to make the congregation laugh. That is not a straw man. That is a fact. You know what else is fact? They are not corrected. Instead, the Bishops or Vicar General’s in the parish refer to them as enthusiastic Priests.

Again, I have never heard this “throughout the Mass”. Yes, I have heard the odd joke to open a homily and grab people’s attention.

But that isn’t stand-up comedy.

And the occasions have certainly been few and far between. I’ve more often heard a priest open a homily or include in his homily real-life examples of what he’s trying to say.

Hence, from my perspective, you’re attacking a priest that simply doesn’t exist at least not that I’ve met in my diocese.

 

[OurBeloved]

Again, I have never heard this “throughout the Mass”. Yes, I have heard the odd joke to open a homily and grab people’s attention.

But that isn’t stand-up comedy.

And the occasions have certainly been few and far between. I’ve more often heard a priest open a homily or include in his homily real-life examples of what he’s trying to say.

Hence, from my perspective, you’re attacking a priest that simply doesn’t exist at least not that I’ve met in my diocese.

Well, from your perspective, yes, but from my perspective I have seen priests who have the liturgy in that way. So I don’t have to think twice before I make such claims. These priests are also referred to by the Bishop and Priests as being enthusiastic rather than doing anything wrong.

If we just want to talk about homilies, then the issue is probably more widespread and I am absolutely fed up with the ‘everything is great’ ideas they speak in them. Here is an opportunity to teach the people right and wrong and alert them of a social issue that is threatening the church and all the homilist has to say is that “everything is GREAT!!!”

In short, I am calling for strict actions against these dissident Priests/Bishops/Cardinals. I think you should be happy about that, no?

 

[OraLabora]

In short, I am calling for strict actions against these dissident Priests/Bishops/Cardinals. I think you should be happy about that, no?

Would I like to see more rigor in their teaching? Yes (and in the liturgy too).

How to go about it (carrot or stick), I’m afraid, is above my pay grade.

 

[OurBeloved]

Would I like to see more rigor in their teaching? Yes (and in the liturgy too).

How to go about it (carrot or stick), I’m afraid, is above my pay grade.

Well, the problem here is that it cannot be the carrot. One cannot simply be silent about teaching error, liturgical abuse, or lukewarmness toward social issues and hope that they will see the light of day themselves. Why? Because these people run parishes full of lay persons and are leading them away from the church for the wrong reasons. By the time the priest might potentially come to his senses, many generations in that parish would have been lead astray.

So it has to be a stick. Warn people, excommunicate them, do whatever it takes so that the faithful can actually trust their Priest/Bishop/Cardinal to teach them what the church teaches. Also, the church can trust it’s leaders to be actively combating error rather than trying to turn a blind eye to it.

This might cause a loss of numbers but that is fine. Many left when Jesus said that they had to eat his body and drink his blood.

 

[OraLabora]

Well, the problem here is that it cannot be the carrot. One cannot simply be silent about teaching error, liturgical abuse, or lukewarmness toward social issues and hope that they will see the light of day themselves. Why? Because these people run parishes full of lay persons and are leading them away from the church for the wrong reasons. By the time the priest might potentially come to his senses, many generations in that parish would have been lead astray.

So it has to be a stick. Warn people, excommunicate them, do whatever it takes so that the faithful can actually trust their Priest/Bishop/Cardinal to teach them what the church teaches. Also, the church can trust it’s leaders to be actively combating error rather than trying to turn a blind eye to it.

This might cause a loss of numbers but that is fine. Many left when Jesus said that they had to eat his body and drink his blood.

Based on my experience from many years as a manager, with some people, the carrot works, and with others, the stick works.

In fact that is also clear from reading the Rule of St. Benedict and his approach to errant monks. He could be very harsh with the stick, but also very patient as well.

You can’t take a one-size-fits-all approach. You’ll lose half your audience (carrot) if you use only a stick and the other half (stick) if you use only the carrot.

 

[OurBeloved]

Based on my experience from many years as a manager, with some people, the carrot works, and with others, the stick works.

In fact that is also clear from reading the Rule of St. Benedict and his approach to errant monks. He could be very harsh with the stick, but also very patient as well.

You can’t take a one-size-fits-all approach. You’ll lose half your audience (carrot) if you use only a stick and the other half (stick) if you use only the carrot.

See, this is not an issue about the congregation. We are talking about the managers themselves here. If you as a bad manager was not doing your job, the company can’t throw carrots at you. You have to be removed and replaced ASAP.

So unfortunately, with this issue, we need to use the stick as well. They are the managers in this case. You can’t just hope the priests/bishops/cardinals will find their way. When and if they do, many generations would have already been lead astray and scandalized many. Dare I say, their incompetency would have also lead to the creation of splinter groups such as the SSPX.

So while your analogy is great, it does not apply here.

The Benedictine rule would be great here too. The problem here is that there is no use of stick at all. All we have is patience.

 

[OraLabora]

See, this is not an issue about the congregation. We are talking about the managers themselves here. If you as a bad manager was not doing your job, the company can’t throw carrots at you. You have to be removed and replaced ASAP.

So unfortunately, with this issue, we need to use the stick as well. They are the managers in this case. You can’t just hope the priests/bishops/cardinals will find their way. When and if they do, many generations would have already been lead astray and scandalized many. Dare I say, their incompetency would have also lead to the creation of splinter groups such as the SSPX.

So while your analogy is great, it does not apply here.

The Benedictine rule would be great here too. The problem here is that there is no use of stick at all. All we have is patience.

Well not quite. We have managers of the managers as well. The bishops, all the way up to the Holy Father.

Yes the stick needs to be used sometimes. But not always.

I think the Holy Father though has in many ways simply been letting time take its course, and has been replacing retired bishops with more orthodox bishops. That’s been the trend where I live in in two archdioceses, Sherbrooke and Montreal.

I think that’s a fairly charitable way of dealing with the issue don’t you?

 

[pnewton]

Then why does the Vatican say that they are not heretic and I can fulfill my Sunday obligation. Better to go to a suspended priest for mass than to go to a heretic. Here in Germany it is hart to find a priest that is neither.

Perhaps you do not know what a heretic is. Few priests are heretics. I simply refuse to believe that somehow in Germany, the land of our Holy Father, that the majority are heretics.

Yes, it is better to go to a Catholic priest than someone who has no function in the Catholic Church. Yes, it is better not to appoint oneself arbiter of heresy.

 

[pnewton]

Whatever case the SSPX have should be answered, simply and clearly. If it can’t be, then they must have solid arguments on their side.

The SSPX have been answered many, many times. Did you know that there were months of negotiations that concluded last year? Then, when it seemed all had worked out, the process continued because of continual objections and questions by the SSPX. Part of faith eventual must be to give assent, even in absence of agreement. It is what keeps us Catholic and not Protestant.

 

[Andre1000]

Perhaps you do not know what a heretic is. Few priests are heretics. I simply refuse to believe that somehow in Germany, the land of our Holy Father, that the majority are heretics.

Yes, it is better to go to a Catholic priest than someone who has no function in the Catholic Church. Yes, it is better not to appoint oneself arbiter of heresy.

I use the CIC definition for heretics. And I wouldn’t believe it myself, but I am born here and I see it myself every day. I do talk about heresy like women priest, everyone will get into heaven, the Church can change every teaching, homosexual marriage in church and confession is not important. The German bishops conference officially supports divorced and remarried couples to the communion.

 

[Portrait]

I use the CIC definition for heretics. And I wouldn’t believe it myself, but I am born here and I see it myself every day. I do talk about heresy like women priest, everyone will get into heaven, the Church can change every teaching, homosexual marriage in church and confession is not important. The German bishops conference officially supports divorced and remarried couples to the communion.

Dear Andre 1000,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hear, Hear, I take your point, old chap.

May I say that I understand and appreciate your concerns, dear friend, and it is my deepest conviction that the contemporary Catholic Church is being besieged by forces hostile to the Church and the cause of good. Of course men will say that this has always been the case and in a sense that is perfectly true (cf. S. Matt. 16: 18), but I do think the present crisis is jolly unprecedented and, as Our Beloved observed above, strict measures are not being taken against dissident bishops, cardinals and priests, so as to semaphore to others that false teaching in faith and morals will not be tolerated by Holy Mother Church.

There is a more lighthearted approach to religion these days, with many Catholics adopting a sort of hand in hand with the world type of religion that makes little or no demand upon them in terms of sanctity and separation from the godless world. Now the clergy should have preached strongly against such worldliness from the pulpit and warned against an a la carte approach to the faith. Moreover, it is as if some of the clergy are bending over backwards to make our Church seem trendy in the eyes the world - ‘user friendly’ to use the modern parlance. True, we want converts, but we should not withhold from them the truth concerning the very arduous demands of our most holy religion and neither should we avoid telling them that the whole course of this life is a state of probation - there is a Hell to be avoided and Heaven to be gained and we are engaged in a continual struggle against the world, the flesh and the Devil. Religion is a very grave matter, involving, let us not delude ourselves, the pursuit of holiness and much self-denial. It is said that a good priest will comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, methinks that more of the latter is required in these days of Laodidean lukewarmess.

God bless, dear friend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[pnewton]

The German bishops conference officially supports divorced and remarried couples to the communion.

That is not a heresy. The Church could allow this (and does in some situations).

Can you show where the German bishops have came out with any of the other points you mentioned? As it is, excuse me if I hold an extreme amount of skepticism as to your claims.

 

[OraLabora]

I do think the present crisis is jolly unprecedented and, as Our Beloved observed above, strict measures are not being taken against dissident bishops, cardinals and priests, so as to semaphore to others that false teaching in faith and morals will not be tolerated by Holy Mother Church.

Unprecedented? Two words: Schism, and Reformation.

 

[Stylites]

Please receive your sacraments from a ‘legitimate’ source. Your soul is at stake!

Indeed. I can’t imagine why anyone would drive past five licit Masses to reach one where the priest is actively sinning by celebrating an illicit Mass.