SSPX not likely to 'come home'

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I note that even the Baptists are down in 2011.

usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-02-16-church_growth_15_ST_N.htm

Catholis are still up, along with Mormons.

Here is a long study

demographia.com/db-religusa2002.htm

The fastest growing percentage will always be some new Church that started,because it starts from nothing. That is why comparing percentages from smaller groups to major Churchs (Roman Catholic is the largest) is apples and oranges. Even at that though, the Catholic Church is ranked strongly and belies the crisis mentality.
Yeah, right. I’d like the see the number of Catholics that practice compared to those that profess to be Catholic. Then you will begin to see that one is in denial if they believe there is no crisis. Heck, we can look at the number of people that went against the church and voted for Obama to see there is a major problem of faith.
 
They have SP. They have UE.
Actually every priest has the SP and UE. In theory anyway.
To be perfectly honest, Bp. Fellay is not the one I’m worried about.
I am. It’s becoming increasingly apparent this will be a one-at-a-time conversion, if any. So far the only post-88 “conversions” have been to the FSSP. A single bishop has yet to be “converted.”
 
I’ll can go a step further and look at my own diocese who is closing 50 churches and doesn’t have enough priests.
 
Then you will begin to see that one is in denial if they believe there is no crisis.
Gee whiz. That is a rather opinionated view. In denial because I do not agree with your thoughts and opinion? No, I am not in denial. I look only at facts. The SSPX broke of with .01% of Catholicism. I do not consider them a significant enough factor to give their rhetoric serious consideration in light of evidence. No, I am not in denial, but then I can also count and do math.

Rather than running around and bemoaning every new challenge as a “crisis”, we need to take the advice of the great Bl. John Paul II and, “Be not afraid.”
 
Gee whiz. That is a rather opinionated view. In denial because I do not agree with your thoughts and opinion? No, I am not in denial. I look only at facts. The SSPX broke of with .01% of Catholicism. I do not consider them a significant enough factor to give their rhetoric serious consideration in light of evidence. No, I am not in denial, but then I can also count and do math.

Rather than running around and bemoaning every new challenge as a “crisis”, we need to take the advice of the great Bl. John Paul II and, “Be not afraid.”
It’s my opinion against your opinion. Be not afraid doesn’t mean ignore the issues, sit on your hands and do nothing. It means don’t be afraid to witness to the Faith. Which is much needed in our time.
 
I am. It’s becoming increasingly apparent this will be a one-at-a-time conversion, if any. So far the only post-88 “conversions” have been to the FSSP. A single bishop has yet to be “converted.”
I meant comparatively within the SSPX. Bp. Felley seems to be one of the only ones (and certainly the only one of the bishops) who’s actually in favour of regularization.
I’ll can go a step further and look at my own diocese who is closing 50 churches and doesn’t have enough priests.
And what is the context for the closings?

Many churches that have been closed are old national/ethnic parishes (also called personal parishes). The people (Irish/Polish/Italian/whoever) have moved away from that area, and there’s probably another regular territorial church in the area. That’s simple consolidation, and not something to be worried about.

In other cases? There is a bit of supply and demand going on. In my city, an older parish in a mature neighbourhood was closed while a new one is being built in a newer area. We don’t like to think of it this way, but parishes require money for upkeep, and if there’s 2 in one area and neither is getting enough money (and neither has full Masses) then the best course is to consolidate.

Another case is very old parishes. Sure, they “look nice”, but maintenance requires an arm and a leg every month, and that’s money that could be used for more important things.

Also, some cities and diocese simply have too many parishes. They were built before transportation around a city was easy, so you have (in extreme cases) 1 every neighbourhood. There’s simply no need to have so many when diocese can be served more effectively and efficiently by few parishes without too much disruption. That’s just long-term planning.

Finally, yes, some parishes are being closed due to lack of priests. So pray for vocations, and there might have to be some pain in the interim.
It’s my opinion against your opinion. Be not afraid doesn’t mean ignore the issues, sit on your hands and do nothing. It means don’t be afraid to witness to the Faith. Which is much needed in our time.
It also means “don’t panic and run around like a chicken with it’s head cut off”.

It means that we know that we’re going to weather whatever storm is happening now. Rome knows where it wants to go and has set a course (long-long-long term).

The SSPX, on the other hand, seems too afraid to do anything. All they seem to talk about is fear, and uncertainty, and doubt (what we like to call FUD). It almost seems like they’re strategizing on this whole process when all they really need to do is jump.

You can see the FUD on this forum. How many questions have we seen where someone will ask “what will happen if X bishop doesn’t like them”, or “what will happen if P, Q, and R are in the Prelature statues”, and several times we’ve even seen “what’s the point if all they’re going to get are restrictions?” Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt. All 3 are opposed to Hope, which should be driving them. What they need is Faith to leap to the other side (because that is where the Church is), Hope to know that whatever they find things are going to work out (because the Holy Spirit’s got our backs), and to do it in Charity (even a little bit of intellectual charity would be a good start).

Instead they fear making the jump, they’re paralyzed because they can’t be 100% sure what they’ll find (not that 100% assurances are ever possible, mind you), and they wonder if they should even try and always seem to assume bad faith on the part of the Vatican.
 
Yeah, right. I’d like the see the number of Catholics that practice compared to those that profess to be Catholic. Then you will begin to see that one is in denial if they believe there is no crisis. Heck, we can look at the number of people that went against the church and voted for Obama to see there is a major problem of faith.
Catholicism in North America is increased by immigrants. Here in Canada, a great majority of Filipino immigrants are Catholics. Parishes have exploding populations in the metropolitan areas thanks to this influx of Catholic immigrants. Even the seminarians are mostly those who are either recent immigrants, or sons of immigrants.
 
It means don’t be afraid to witness to the Faith. Which is much needed in our time.
From my experience of observing that kind of attitude amongst fundamentalists, it leads more to a loss of the Faith than a revival of it.

Even the Christians of Nero’s Rome weren’t so open about their faith.
 
Catholicism in North America is increased by immigrants.
Thanks be to God! It helps us remember that the Church is more than white Europeans and Americans. It is always nice to see the Church thriving in other parts of the world. It reminds us that our own narrow view of what is a crisis can be quite… parochial.
 
From my experience of observing that kind of attitude amongst fundamentalists, it leads more to a loss of the Faith than a revival of it.

Even the Christians of Nero’s Rome weren’t so open about their faith.
Good thing Catholics aren’t fundamentalists and have a completely different understanding of witnessing the Faith.

I suspect the Christians of Nero’ s day were no where near as lukewarm as today’s Christians and strove for Holiness.
 
Good thing Catholics aren’t fundamentalists and have a completely different understanding of witnessing the Faith.

I suspect the Christians of Nero’ s day were no where near as lukewarm as today’s Christians and strove for Holiness.
Do you think lukewarm Christians are a post-Vatican II or 20th century invention?

I suggest re-reading St. Paul’s epistles. Lukewarm faith is nothing new. Heck the Old Testament is filled with stories of people turning their backs on God and worshipping false idols.

In every era since Christ there have been lukewarm Christians. But also very fervent ones. I think our last canonized martyrs are quite recent in fact.
 
Good thing Catholics aren’t fundamentalists and have a completely different understanding of witnessing the Faith.

I suspect the Christians of Nero’ s day were no where near as lukewarm as today’s Christians and strove for Holiness.
Martyrdom requires little speech and no pamphlets.
 
Thanks be to God! It helps us remember that the Church is more than white Europeans and Americans. It is always nice to see the Church thriving in other parts of the world. It reminds us that our own narrow view of what is a crisis can be quite… parochial.
By your comment you admit that there is serious trouble with Europe and America. Even the Faith in Latin America is falling away, as Pope Benedict just addressed. Pope Benedict’s concern over the Faith in Europe, which he has addressed many times and his reaching out to the Russian Orthodox Church to help combat the onslaught of secularism must be just his own narrow view.
 
Did the SSPX ever leave home? Or do they simply have problems with Vatican II because it put forward teachings that contradict the teachings of previous popes?
For example, Pope Pius XI condemned Ecumenism outright in his 1928 Encyclical Mortalium Animos. And yet both the Council and the Popes since the Council actively promote Ecumenism. Both positions can’t be right.
**
Vatican 2 was an ecumincal council ratified by the Pope and is therefore infalible. Pope pius XI was not making an infalible statement. Not everything a Pope says is infalible, It has to fall under certain guidelines established by Vatican I, but an Ecumenical council ratified by the Pope most certainly is infalible.
 
Do you think lukewarm Christians are a post-Vatican II or 20th century invention?

I suggest re-reading St. Paul’s epistles. Lukewarm faith is nothing new. Heck the Old Testament is filled with stories of people turning their backs on God and worshipping false idols.

In every era since Christ there have been lukewarm Christians. But also very fervent ones. I think our last canonized martyrs are quite recent in fact.
Yeah man that’s EXACTLY what I was saying. Because I wanted to give you an excuse to attack me even more and talk to me like I’m stupid. :rolleyes:

I’m done here. :mad:
 
By your comment you admit that there is serious trouble with Europe and America.
No I did not. No I do not, at least in the sense of more serious trouble that the 2000 year battle the Church is still in.
 
Good thing Catholics aren’t fundamentalists and have a completely different understanding of witnessing the Faith.

I suspect the Christians of Nero’ s day were no where near as lukewarm as today’s Christians and strove for Holiness.
Its human nature. We tend to be lax when things are going our way and fierce when we have our backs against the wall. There were only few Christians during Nero’s time compared to today, and they were fierce in spirit. You can see the same spirit today with Christians in the Middle East. You don’t see complaining about what Father was wearing at Mass today or what language he was using. Most of them are thankful they were able to go to Liturgy and complete it without a bomb going off.
 
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