SSPX Numbers

[Pax_et_Caritas]

A member of SSPX would use that against you. The only SSPX person I know likes to quote Jesus who asked if there will be anyone of faith when he returns. My SSPX friend says that there will be but" a remant of the faithful "when Christ returns.
Of course he believes that that remnant is the SSPX.
Do all SSPX believe that? I do not know any others. But to say that the SSPX is a “merest sliver of the Church” is actually bolstering their beliefs.

I’ve been associated with the SSPX, to one degree or another, since converting to the Catholic Church in '98. I converted through an SSPX Chapel. At the time, I didn’t even know what the SSPX was. I was just converting to the Catholic Church, and I happened to be doing so through an SSPX Church without knowing it. Thank heavens God answered my prayer by sending me to an SSPX Church to be instructed in the faith, rather than your typical heretical Novus Ordo Church. Actually, I did attend a heretical Novus Ordo Church for RCIA. I made it through the introduction class and never returned due to the liberalism that was apparent, even at that time (the teacher actually admitted to being a liberal). It was then that I got out the phone book and found another Church where the Priest agreed to give me one-on-one Catechism classes. That was the SSPX Church - thank heavens - probably the only Church in the area where I would be taught the real faith using the Baltimore Catechism (#3).

Anyway, my reason for posting is to tell about the different people that go to an SSPX Church. There is a very small percent that are exclusively SSPX. These will not attend an Indult, or an FSSP Church. They are exclusively SSPX. They make up about 10% or so. The rest are just looking for a Traditional Church with the true Mass and true faith. Almost none will attend a Novus Ordo Church ever, but the majority will attend the Indult or FSSP masses. Some would prefer an FSSP Church, but there is not one available.

The SSPX is safe in this way: You don’t have to worry about the Priest teaching heresy. Believe me, if he uttered one error, he would not hear the end of it. The faithful would be all over him. Some Priests give better sermons than others, but all are heresy free. Some Priests say the Mass more reverently than others, but the Masses are all abuse free.

In my opinion, the SSPX plays its part in Divine Providence during this crisis. If it was not for the SSPX we would not have the FSSP, or probably any other Traditonal Mass. I forget what Cardinal it was who said “if it wasn’t for Archbishop Lefebvre, the Traditional Mass would be gone”. He said that about 10 years ago… and he was right.

Thanks to ArchBishop Lefebvre and the SSPX we now have a restoration taking place. After 37 years of saying and implying the exact contrary, the Church has finally come out and admitted that the Old Mass was never “forbidden” and was actually permitted the entire time. The next question they can answer is why the Priests who continued to say the Mass were persecuted.

The crisis is far from over, and it is much deeper than just the Mass. We still have the issue of false ecumenism and its sister - the formally condemned heresy of religious liberty. These are two serious errors that need to be uprooted. Once these errors are purged, we can expect the restoration to move full steam ahead.

Until then, the SSPX is one of several safe havens where a Catholic can be sure of getting a valid Mass, a valid baptism, valid confirmation, and the true faith.

What’s interesting is that those who claim that the SSPX is in schism usually have no problem with real Schismatics. The Eastern Orthodox not only rejejct the office of the Pope (which makes them schismatic), but they also reject the infallibility of the Pope, and other dogmas (which makes them heretics). Yet, in spite of this, our Church leaders refer to them as true particulate Churches and they are allowed to receive communion in a Catholic Church. Incredible.

In fact, John Paul II the Great signed a document (the Balamand Agreement) saying we should not attempt to convert the schismatic and heretical Orthodox. The real schismatics are OK, but avoid the SSPX. Error can tolerate error, but it cannot tolerate the truth. Thus the reason for the hatred of the SSPX.

 

[stmaria]

=Pax et Caritas;3416860]
What’s interesting is that those who claim that the SSPX is in schism usually have no problem with real Schismatics. The Eastern Orthodox not only rejejct the office of the Pope (which makes them schismatic), but they also reject the infallibility of the Pope, and other dogmas (which makes them heretics). Yet, in spite of this, our Church leaders refer to them as true particulate Churches and allow to receive communion in a Catholic Church. Incredible.

In fact, John Paul II the Great signed a document (the Balamand Agreement) saying we should not attempt to convert the schismatic and heretical Orthodox. The real schismatics are OK, but avoid the SSPX. Error can tolerate error, but it cannot tolerate the truth. Thus the reason for the hatred of the SSPX.

There is no doubt that the SSPX is hated, especially on this site.
I do not belong nor have I ever attended a SSPX Mass but I find myself very sympathetic to their plight.

 

[JRKH]

There is no doubt that the SSPX is hated, especially on this site.
I do not belong nor have I ever attended a SSPX Mass but I find myself very sympathetic to their plight.

Well - I am on this site and I do not hate the SSPX.
I sympathize with them and hope for a restoration of full communion with Rome.
I do see that they are in trouble with Rome, and that the Holy Father would like to see this chasm bridged.
He says as much in his SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM ON THE USE OF THE ROMAN LITURGY PRIOR TO THE REFORM OF 1970:

I now come to the positive reason which motivated my decision to issue this Motu Proprio updating that of 1988. It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church. Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church’s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden. This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today: to make every effort to enable for all those who truly desire unity to remain in that unity or to attain it anew. I think of a sentence in the Second Letter to the Corinthians, where Paul writes: “Our mouth is open to you, Corinthians; our heart is wide. You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections. In return … widen your hearts also!” (2 Cor 6:11-13). Paul was certainly speaking in another context, but his exhortation can and must touch us too, precisely on this subject. Let us generously open our hearts and make room for everything that the faith itself allows.

I realize that attempts at healing have not progressed as many would like, but I, for one, will leave it to those most qualified to work toward a full reconciliation.

Peace
James

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I find the question very relevant. While numbers are not the only measure of truth, one would think that after half a century passes and the SSPX, as well as sedecavantists, remain but the merest sliver of the Church, one must question if their dissent is of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, that argument “from vitality” might be flipped on its head to claim that since there are just about as many non-Catholic Christians as Catholic Christians (roughly 1 billion each) that we have no reason to think the Catholic Church is more graced by the Spirit than the other “half of Christianity.” But that would, of course, be false.

On the point of actual numbers, though, I remember hearing at one point that in France more Catholics worship at traditional Masses than at the Novus Ordo. Since roughly 3% of French Catholics were practicing at the time, I suppose that would mean that roughly 1.5-2% of French Catholics were traditionalists, with a high likelihood that at least half of those were SSPX (since the French bishops have been, shall we say, less than favorable towards the traditional form of Mass).

 

[ProVobis]

I understand that the Holy Father had to water down the Motu Proprio so that it would not be offensive to the French bishops. It would have been very interesting to hear or read what the original version of the MP was. Maybe we’ll know in the next 20 years or so when things play out a little bit.

 

[pnewton]

Of course, that argument “from vitality” might be flipped on its head to claim that since there are just about as many non-Catholic Christians as Catholic Christians (roughly 1 billion each) that we have no reason to think the Catholic Church is more graced by the Spirit than the other “half of Christianity.” But that would, of course, be false.

Except you would have to lump them all together and there is absolutely no commonality between them. It would be better to view all non-Catholics as one group to get a real big majority.

I admit the argument would be weak if the numbers weren’t so drastically of a different scale, or if the SSPX was growing exponentially. As it is, another generation will probably leave the a theological oddity, like the Old Catholic Church of the previous Church Council.

 

[Your_Abbott]

How many SSPX’ers (for lack of a better term) are there anyway?

In the US?

In the world?

1,000,000 worldwide, maybe 2,000,000???

Does anyone have an idea or an actual source that lists such numbers?

Thanks!

1 is more than too many!

 

[Your_Abbott]

Does it matter? What’s the point?

Good answer.

It matters if you are SSPX. We have more than we need on this site. They keep popping up everywhere, although I think many of them are false ID’s.

 

[Your_Abbott]

I understand that the Holy Father had to water down the Motu Proprio so that it would not be offensive to the French bishops. It would have been very interesting to hear or read what the original version of the MP was. Maybe we’ll know in the next 20 years or so when things play out a little bit.

“You understood”??? Where did that propaganda come from?
Since when did a German care what the French thought?

“Ooooh, the French may not like this…let’s water it down.”

Benedict did no such thing. He does what he wants. He doesn’t need any group to tell him what to think.

 

[Your_Abbott]

I find the question very relevant. While numbers are not the only measure of truth, one would think that after half a century passes and the SSPX, as well as sedecavantists, remain but the merest sliver of the Church, one must question if their dissent is of the Holy Spirit.

And you claim that you are not an SSPX?

Come, now, newton. The apple did fall on your head. We are not swallowing this naivete.

 

[pnewton]

And you claim that you are not an SSPX?

Come, now, newton. The apple did fall on your head. We are not swallowing this naivete.

Boy, you very childish.

Stmaria, I have now been called SSPX. How’s that for irony.

 

[Freshman88]

LOL - Pnewton - Join date “June 1 2004”

So i see you’ve failed yet again SSPXer! You better make an account now, so that in four years time, you can strike a blow - yet again!

I’ve heard of SSPXers complaing about freemasons being under their bed, but this has to be the first time I’ve seen someone looking for SSPXers in their closet!

 

[stmaria]

Boy, you very childish.

Stmaria, I have now been called SSPX. How’s that for irony.

Your Abbott acts like a very immature teenager. So angry. Just wants to agrue all of the time. Kind of like mgrfin who may be Your Abbott in disguise.

Anyone that has been posting on this site for longer that a week knows that pnewton is not with the SSPX.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Here’s what wikipedia says about numbers for all traditional groups:

According to the Statistical Yearbook of the Church, the Catholic Church’s worldwide recorded membership at the end of 2005 was 1,114,966,000.[17] Estimates of how many of these Catholics are traditionalists vary widely.

All traditionalists

“Millions” worldwide - Pro-SSPX article in The Remnant, 2006 [3]
6-7 million worldwide (figure based on supposed 1 million SSPX adherents) - Internet site on traditionalism, 2004 [4]
Close to 1 million worldwide - estimate attributed to the Vatican in Catholic World News article, 2005 [5] Cf. the alleged Vatican estimate of 1 million (the same figure) SSPX adherents given below.
Under 200,000 in France (a significant centre of traditionalism) - Estimate posted on traditionalist forum, 2006 [6]
5% of French Catholics - Statistics reportedly used by French bishops, according to blog item, 2006 [7]
Traditionalists in dispute with Rome

2 million+ worldwide - Pro-SSPX article, 2006 [8]
2 million in the US - “Usual” estimate, according to pro-SSPX source, 2005 [9]
Over 100,000 in the US - Southern Poverty Law Centre, 2007 [10]
100,000 in the US - New York Times Magazine, cited in academic article, 2003 [11]
50,000-100,000 in the US - Upper and lower limits of attempted estimates, according to article in The Scotsman, 2004 [12]
?50,000 in the US - Academic article, 2004 [13]
Traditionalists in good standing with Rome

2 million+ worldwide - Pro-SSPX article, 2006 [14]
Hundreds of thousands supporting organisations linked with the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei - Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, 2007 [15]
Adherents of the SSPX

1 million worldwide - Pro-SSPX article in The Remnant, 2006 [16]
1 million worldwide - Estimate attributed to SSPX itself in secular news article, 2006 [17] and in The Wanderer, 2006 [18]
1 million worldwide - Alleged Vatican estimate, 2004 [19] Cf. the alleged Vatican estimate of 1 million (the same figure) traditionalist Catholics of all kinds given above.
600,000 - Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, 2007 [20]
20,000 in the US - Estimate attributed to SSPX itself in The Scotsman, 2004 [21]
Sedevacantists

?1.3 million worldwide - Internet site on traditionalism, 2004 [22]
500,000+ worldwide - Pro-SSPX article, 2006 [23]
One way of assessing the size of the traditionalist community is to examine the number of priests who belong to traditionalist organisations. The two most prominent such organisations are the SSPX and the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP); the SSPX has around 500 priests, and the FSSP has roughly 200. There are roughly 500,000 Catholic priests in the world, which, when combined with the total number of Catholics stated above, gives an average ratio of priests to laypeople of 1:2200. Such a ratio is broadly consistent with the above estimate of 1 million SSPX supporters.

For purposes of comparison with mainstream Catholic organisations, the Knights of Columbus are stated to have 1.7 million members, the Neocatechumenal Way is reported to have around 1 million members,[18] and Opus Dei is claimed to have 87,000 members

 

[ProVobis]

“Benedict did no such thing.”

Beg to differ. The MP was years in the writing. We know we didn’t have the original version. The final version is what counts, however. So your vernacular Mass is safe for a while and you should count your blessings.

 

[pnewton]

Your Abbott acts like a very immature teenager. So angry. Just wants to agrue all of the time. Kind of like mgrfin who may be Your Abbott in disguise.

Anyone that has been posting on this site for longer that a week knows that pnewton is not with the SSPX.

You know, if nothing else, it this last surge of childish behavior of late has shown that most of us agree on more than we disagree. For the most part, we treat each other with charity. We strive for truth, even if we disagree. It all supports my contention that I have found I have more in common with most all traditionalists than I have not in common with them.

 

[Brother_John]

“Benedict did no such thing.”

Beg to differ. The MP was years in the writing. We know we didn’t have the original version. The final version is what counts, however. So your vernacular Mass is safe for a while and you should count your blessings.

Do you honestly believe that the TLM will rub out the OF/NO? in your lifetime or mine? Seriously

 

[Your_Abbott]

You know, if nothing else, it this last surge of childish behavior of late has shown that most of us agree on more than we disagree. For the most part, we treat each other with charity. We strive for truth, even if we disagree. It all supports my contention that I have found I have more in common with most all traditionalists than I have not in common with them.

Well the Agenda is there. Why does Traditionalists mean to oppose Vatican 2, saying that it didn’t teach anything, no definitions, approved modernists, etc.

Childish behavior? Like children you sneer at anything you don’t like, and expect it to change. We don’t want you to spend your lives hoping the Church to say, “Oh, we made a mistake”. The Church has never said that. It can’t. It is protected by the Holy Spirit, and the Vicar of Christ on earth who leads us.

Do we have a topic here, or did the Moderator put an end to it with 'no more proselytization of members over to this schismatic sect?

 

[Your_Abbott]

JuanCarlos:
I think it is time for the Pontiff to come out with a Motu Proprio condemning SSPX, as Modernism was condemned in the 19th century. He has been all too patient.

 

[Your_Abbott]

Your Abbott acts like a very immature teenager. So angry. Just wants to agrue all of the time. Kind of like mgrfin who may be Your Abbott in disguise.

Anyone that has been posting on this site for longer that a week knows that pnewton is not with the SSPX.

I don’t know who this guy is. Truth is, I am me. I believe in the Roman Catholic faith, and concur with lots of Catholics who post here. I don’t see any reason to cry and harp as you do, and make personal attacks. Who is childish?