SSPX & OpusDei.

[Abenadar]

I have never been to one of their “centers” nor do I know where to find one in the United States. Do you? Are you a member? Do you attend their “services”? Are they open to the public? Is there “reserved seating”? Do they celebrate the Extraordinary Form? The Ordinary Form? Any Mass at all? The reason for their existence and what they actually do is not entirely clear. Their website offers little help. Their youtube vids, even less.

If you are knowledgeable in this regard, in charity, please fill us in.

The one I used to go to as a kid in LA (right by the UCLA campus) was a place for tutoring and spiritual direction. They prayed the OF in a dedicated chapel in the house. I’m not sure what they actually do other than what I’ve listed because I was in my early teens and went mainly for the tutoring and activities for us high school kids. I don’t know what their “numeraries” (etc) are up to other than trying to lead holy lives while being “in the world” (versus being cloistered or in a monastery).

 

[franklinf]

Makes no difference. Jesus told Peter that what he bound on earth was bound in heaven – no exceptions, not even if there were a crisis of faith in the Church.

Wasn’t **Saint **Joan of Arc burned at the stake for bieng a heretic?

 

[GwenL]

I have never been to one of their “centers” nor do I know where to find one in the United States. Do you? Are you a member? Do you attend their “services”? Are they open to the public? Is there “reserved seating”? Do they celebrate the Extraordinary Form? The Ordinary Form? Any Mass at all? The reason for their existence and what they actually do is not entirely clear.

Mick, might I suggest that you check the Opus Dei website? opusdei.org/

Go about 3/4 of the way down on the left side, and click on the link: “Opus Dei in the U.S.”

Then click on the link in the center “history and activities.” This will get you here: opusdei.us/art.php?p=31126 This page shows several of the centers (no need for quotes around centers). The ones with websites have blue letters and link directly to the center’s website. This page also tells you what cities and universities have conference centers, residences, etc.

You might also go to the tab along the top of any of these pages that says “contact us.” Contact them with your request and I imagine you will get an answer within a day. I contacted them and asked for information on a retreat for women near my location. They were immediately responsive and I was quickly in email contact with the person who could answer all of my questions and set me up for the retreat.

You ask “are they open to the public?” I guess you could consider me a pretty much “general public.” I’m not even a Catholic yet (that’ll happen on Easter Vigil), so I infer that the answer is: they are “open to the public.” I sat in the front row at every retreat activity, and I noticed no reserved seating. The Masses that I attended, conducted by a priest of Opus Dei, were Ordinary Form.

Might I also suggest that you do a little reading? I highly recommend Scott Hahn’s “Ordinary Work, Extraordinary Grace: My Spiritual Journey in Opus Dei.” It’s a good introduction to the spirituality of Opus Dei; why they exist and what they do. Also, check out josemariaescriva.info/, a website with a wealth of information and documentation about the founder, St Josemaria.

 

[Red_Meg]

The reason for their existence and what they actually do is not entirely clear.

Hi. I’m an actual, in the flesh (well, virtual in this context, I suppose) member of Opus Dei. I’m also eight months pregnant and exhausted, so I’ll keep this as brief as I can.

I just got back from my annual retreat yesterday, held at a local retreat house owned and operated by Opus Dei. As always, it was very spiritually refreshing and I came away with a lot to pray and think about, and some resolutions that need working on. Our retreats probably tend to be more “traditional” than most these days-- they are silent retreats, i.e. the participants are silent, while the priest preaches multiple times per day, offers Mass and benediction, hears confession, etc. There is also one talk per day given by one of the lay women, on practical virtue topics like humility, etc… The Mass was NO, in Latin (except the readings) and facing the people, but with a six-candle + crucifix arrangement on the altar between the priest and the people. Customary for the Work, the vestments, sacred vessels, altar furnishings, etc. were all beautiful and of high quality. No glass pitchers or earthenware bowls to be seen… Normally everyone kneels to receive on the tongue, although occasionally you’ll see a someone with horrifically bad knees or hips, or a mother cradling an infant, who cannot “land” safely down on the kneeler and then get back up again. Hopefully that gives you some idea of liturgical practice-- by-the-book, deeply reverent, and beautiful.

And funny, enough, the priest was actually sort of chuckling about your question during one of the meditations. “So, what is it you people do, exactly???” In a nutshell: Opus Dei’s mission is to proclaim the universal call to holiness. Sanctity is the vocation of all the baptized, not just for the occasional stand-out saint like Mother Teresa or Padre Pio. How we “do” that then is somewhat the same for everybody: we live a fairly demanding program of piety each day-- Mass, Rosary, mental prayer, spiritual reading, etc… But that’s only sort of the bare-bone structure. The rest of the day depends on the individual-- we all attempt to come closer to God through our daily work and family life. We view these things as the means to our sanctity, not an obstacle to it. We try to be contemplatives in the middle of the world.

As a natural overflow of this attempt to be holy, we also try to be very apostolic. This doesn’t usually mean something structured and organized, like door-to-door missions or anything. Instead, it means meeting people where they’re at and trying to help them draw nearer to God. So for a non-Christian friend, it might begin simply by gradually helping them understand our Judeo-Christian worldview-- that there is one God, who made us and loves us passionately, and that there actually are objective standards of right and wrong. Dealing with a Protestant will likely hit on many of the issues discussed at CAF-- helping them understand the true nature of the Church’s authority, the saints and BVM, the misguided nature of sola scriptura, etc. For a lapsed Catholic, it might start with some gentle urges to come along with me to Confession or to pray the Rosary, or perhaps speak to a priest about regularizing an irregular marriage. Etc. I hope you get the idea??

Your question is quite broad, so it’s difficult to know exactly what you’re looking for. Please do dig through the website a bit more-- it is quite extensive, if you poke around a bit beyond the main page.

Best regards,

Margaret

 

[dellacroce]

Abenadar is doing a great job of defending Abp. Lefebvre’s position and I don’t want to distract from it but I wanted to post this comment by
Bishop Richard Challoner in the Douay-Rheims for Galatians 2:11, the passage where the Apostle Paul discusses his rebuke of Pope Peter I for having stopped eating at table with the uncircumcised:

*Neither was St. Paul’s reprehending him any argument against his supremacy; for in such cases an inferior may, and sometimes ought, with respect, to admonish his superior. *

drbo.org/chapter/55002.htm

This commentary was written in the 1750’s, a time when a stricter understanding of authority was to be had than today.

 

[dellacroce]

At any rate, those who have posted here claiming that the SSPX are “in schism” or “the same as the Anglicans and Lutherans” are in disagreement with the Holy Father:

While receiving in audience the members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith last January 15, Benedict XVI justified the gesture made towards the Society of St. Pius X, and expressed his desire to see “the remaining doctrinal problems overcome” thanks to the work of the Congregation [for the Doctrine of the Faith.]

dici.org/en/?p=4328

And from Catholic News Service:

***Pope Benedict XVI **has named a commission under the authority of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to conduct the delicate dialogue with the society, saying the remaining problems with the society are mainly doctrinal in nature. *

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0904605.htm

Nothing here about the SSPX being “outside of the Church.” The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith handles the internal matters of the Catholic Church, not ecumenical outreach to non-Catholics, as Pope Benedict well knows, having been the Prefect of this congregation for Pope John Paul II.

 

[Lycorth]

Thank you, dellacroce.

The assertion that the SSPX are somehow “non-traditional” because of a disagreement between them and Pope John Paul II regarding the 1989 excommunications is moot, as Pope Benedict reversed those excommunications. The irregularities that exist between the Vatican and the Society are not nearly enough to render the Society schismatic in any way.

I pray for a speedy reconciliation and restoration of the Society to full communion with the Church. It will be nice to see all these fairy tales laid to rest.

 

[mick321]

Hi. I’m an actual, in the flesh (well, virtual in this context, I suppose) member of Opus Dei. I’m also eight months pregnant and exhausted, so I’ll keep this as brief as I can.

I just got back from my annual retreat yesterday, held at a local retreat house owned and operated by Opus Dei. As always, it was very spiritually refreshing and I came away with a lot to pray and think about, and some resolutions that need working on. Our retreats probably tend to be more “traditional” than most these days-- they are silent retreats, i.e. the participants are silent, while the priest preaches multiple times per day, offers Mass and benediction, hears confession, etc. There is also one talk per day given by one of the lay women, on practical virtue topics like humility, etc… The Mass was NO, in Latin (except the readings) and facing the people, but with a six-candle + crucifix arrangement on the altar between the priest and the people. Customary for the Work, the vestments, sacred vessels, altar furnishings, etc. were all beautiful and of high quality. No glass pitchers or earthenware bowls to be seen… Normally everyone kneels to receive on the tongue, although occasionally you’ll see a someone with horrifically bad knees or hips, or a mother cradling an infant, who cannot “land” safely down on the kneeler and then get back up again. Hopefully that gives you some idea of liturgical practice-- by-the-book, deeply reverent, and beautiful.

And funny, enough, the priest was actually sort of chuckling about your question during one of the meditations. “So, what is it you people do, exactly???” In a nutshell: Opus Dei’s mission is to proclaim the universal call to holiness. Sanctity is the vocation of all the baptized, not just for the occasional stand-out saint like Mother Teresa or Padre Pio. How we “do” that then is somewhat the same for everybody: we live a fairly demanding program of piety each day-- Mass, Rosary, mental prayer, spiritual reading, etc… But that’s only sort of the bare-bone structure. The rest of the day depends on the individual-- we all attempt to come closer to God through our daily work and family life. We view these things as the means to our sanctity, not an obstacle to it. We try to be contemplatives in the middle of the world.

As a natural overflow of this attempt to be holy, we also try to be very apostolic. This doesn’t usually mean something structured and organized, like door-to-door missions or anything. Instead, it means meeting people where they’re at and trying to help them draw nearer to God. So for a non-Christian friend, it might begin simply by gradually helping them understand our Judeo-Christian worldview-- that there is one God, who made us and loves us passionately, and that there actually are objective standards of right and wrong. Dealing with a Protestant will likely hit on many of the issues discussed at CAF-- helping them understand the true nature of the Church’s authority, the saints and BVM, the misguided nature of sola scriptura, etc. For a lapsed Catholic, it might start with some gentle urges to come along with me to Confession or to pray the Rosary, or perhaps speak to a priest about regularizing an irregular marriage. Etc. I hope you get the idea??

Your question is quite broad, so it’s difficult to know exactly what you’re looking for. Please do dig through the website a bit more-- it is quite extensive, if you poke around a bit beyond the main page.

Best regards,

Margaret

Thanks for responding. I wondered how long it would take. After 43 responses, it’s good to make the acquaintance of a card-carrying member. The fact that you are expecting would make you a supernumerary, I presume.

I suspect that there are some folks who frequent this forum that think a strong preference for the Extraordinary Form of the Classical Roman Liturgy is the touchstone of traditional Catholicism.

I’ve browsed through the Opus Dei website on the recommendation of previous posters to this thread. Evidence of the traditional sensibility one finds on every page of a SSPX, FSSP or ICK website is conspicuously absent from the Opus Dei links I have visited so far.

I have attended a number of Ordinary Form Masses in Latin at the abbey of an Augustinian community in my area. The Canons Regular offer Mass in the manner you describe. While it is the most reverent OF within 100 miles, it’s still the OF.

Even the book Ordinary Work, Extraordinary Grace by Scott Hahn seems to suggest that OD embraces and advances a post-V2 ecumenism that is considered anathema by many traditional Catholics, Supreme Pontiffs included.

I understand that the release of the book was synchronized to the release of the film The DaVinci Code. PR concerns aside, is the whole OF Mass and ecumenical thing - often thought of as the touchstone of modernist Catholicism - merely part of OD’s effort to make itself appear less threatening to converted Protestants [like Hahn] and Catholics of a less traditional persuasion?

Is it really accurate to describe Opus Dei as traditional in a Catholic sense? Would it not be more accurate to describe it as conservative, in a socio-political sense?

Respectfully.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I still don’t really understand your original question or this comment. SSPX and Opus Dei are two completely different things, different origins, different purposes. I’m not sure why you are comparing them so directly. It’s kind of like asking why are there Dominicans and also Knights of Columbus. They are totally different organizations, founded in different times and circumstances for different purposes. Why can’t their be both SSPX and Opus Dei? The Body of Christ has many members who all approach the throne from different paths. Opus Dei is an approved personal prelature; SSPX has had the excommunications lifted and will hopefully soon be fully reconciled to the Church. There is a place for both organizations.

 

[baltobetsy]

Is it really accurate to describe Opus Dei as traditional in a Catholic sense? Would it not be more accurate to describe it as conservative, in a socio-political sense?

Perhaps one could say Opus Dei is traditional, but not traditionalist.

Betsy

 

[Red_Meg]

Thanks for responding. I wondered how long it would take. After 43 responses, it’s good to make the acquaintance of a card-carrying member. The fact that you are expecting would make you a supernumerary, I presume.

I suspect that there are some folks who frequent this forum that think a strong preference for the Extraordinary Form of the Classical Roman Liturgy is the touchstone of traditional Catholicism.

I’ve browsed through the Opus Dei website on the recommendation of previous posters to this thread. Evidence of the traditional sensibility one finds on every page of a SSPX, FSSP or ICK website is conspicuously absent from the Opus Dei links I have visited so far.

I have attended a number of Ordinary Form Masses in Latin at the abbey of an Augustinian community in my area. The Canons Regular offer Mass in the manner you describe. While it is the most reverent OF within 100 miles, it’s still the OF.

Even the book Ordinary Work, Extraordinary Grace by Scott Hahn seems to suggest that OD embraces and advances a post-V2 ecumenism that is considered anathema by many traditional Catholics, Supreme Pontiffs included.

I understand that the release of the book was synchronized to the release of the film The DaVinci Code. PR concerns aside, is the whole OF Mass and ecumenical thing - often thought of as the touchstone of modernist Catholicism - merely part of OD’s effort to make itself appear less threatening to converted Protestants [like Hahn] and Catholics of a less traditional persuasion?

Is it really accurate to describe Opus Dei as traditional in a Catholic sense? Would it not be more accurate to describe it as conservative, in a socio-political sense?

Respectfully.

I guess I’m not totally clear on how you’re using the terms here. If you’re defining traditional to mean “rejecting or at least disapproving of the OF,” then clearly no, Opus Dei is not “traditional” according to that definition. I tend to use the term more to capture the kinds of practices that I, at least, would consider traditional-- reverent Masses, orthodox preaching, frequent recourse to Confession, Marian devotions like the Rosary and the Angelus, etc…

As far as ecumenism goes, again, I’m not sure that we’re using the term in a comparable way. Opus Dei is not given to the “all religions are really the same deep down” nonsense you’ll run into in some places. The approach of people in the Work more tends to be what I described earlier-- meeting people where they’re at, starting from common ground, trying to eliminate misunderstandings, etc. The end goal is to help people come into full communion with the Catholic Church. I’m not sure if some “old school” types get upset with the “you’ll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar” approach because they feel it’s best to beat people over the head with these things (THIS IS THE TRUTH, HERETIC!!!) , but that mentality has never made a lot of sense to me…

Any clarifications on where you’re coming from and how you’re defining these terms would be helpful. Oooh, and the “social-political” “conservative” thing really threw me for a loop, so concrete examples there would be helpful, too.

Best,

Margaret

 

[mick321]

I guess I’m not totally clear on how you’re using the terms here. If you’re defining traditional to mean “rejecting or at least disapproving of the OF,” then clearly no, Opus Dei is not “traditional” according to that definition. I tend to use the term more to capture the kinds of practices that I, at least, would consider traditional-- reverent Masses, orthodox preaching, frequent recourse to Confession, Marian devotions like the Rosary and the Angelus, etc…

As far as ecumenism goes, again, I’m not sure that we’re using the term in a comparable way. Opus Dei is not given to the “all religions are really the same deep down” nonsense you’ll run into in some places. The approach of people in the Work more tends to be what I described earlier-- meeting people where they’re at, starting from common ground, trying to eliminate misunderstandings, etc. The end goal is to help people come into full communion with the Catholic Church. I’m not sure if some “old school” types get upset with the “you’ll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar” approach because they feel it’s best to beat people over the head with these things (THIS IS THE TRUTH, HERETIC!!!) , but that mentality has never made a lot of sense to me…

Any clarifications on where you’re coming from and how you’re defining these terms would be helpful. Oooh, and the “social-political” “conservative” thing really threw me for a loop, so concrete examples there would be helpful, too.

Best,

Margaret

I have not had firsthand exposure to OpusDei. I know how the term Traditionalist is used in this forum and I intentionally avoid it. A previous posting put forth the notion that OD was more traditional than SSPX. OK, lets see.

In my mind, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is central to the Catholic Faith. Solid preaching, Marian devotions, frequent Confession, all support the Eucharist. The Classical Roman Liturgy [now called the Extraordinary Form] developed organically over the span of centuries. Our Saints lived and died for it. Regardless the current preference of any or all 21st century religious orders, its historic significance within context of our common Roman Catholic Culture is undeniable. It’s not merely my tradition, it’s ours.

I agree that political vernacular does not always translate neatly into the Catholic realm. Terms like conservative and liberal are particularly troublesome. What is a conservative? Is it someone who is so obedient to the Holy Father that he risks violating the First Commandment? Is it someone who wishes to retain every novelty of the modernist church? Or should these behaviors be properly classified as neo-conservative? Or neo-liberal? Neo-Catholic, perhaps?

Based on your brief description of some of the group’s activities, I would conclude that OD is a hybrid of sorts. SSPX, FSSP and ICK are not. All have their place.

Peace.

 

[Red_Meg]

Hi Mick,

I wish you had clearly explained in your initial question that you make your personal determinations on the nature of an organization primarily (perhaps exclusively?) through the lens of the TLM. It would have spared me a lot of typing… I’m going to call my contribution to this slightly odd conversation finished now.

I wish you a most blessed Holy Week and a joyous Easter.

Margaret

 

[GaryTaylor]

Because a heretic rejects some dogmas his belief is not based on Faith. Where the man/woman who believes everything God teachs is True. The Faithfull soul knows that God who is Holy cannot tell a lie. And God who is all knowing cannot tell a lie.

Anyone who is not Catholic doesn’t have what the Church defines as FAITH. Faith is a Supernatural Virtue that empowers us to believe GODs teachings. This virtue is infused into the Spirit of the Catholic upon Baptism…

Each and Every one of us has an obligation to preserve this FAITH. The basis of out salvation is our Faith. It is impossible to please God without Faith. If Faith is taken from us? We cannot be saved unless the faith is regained.

Many Catholics think we can do good on our own. Or any good we have or do is NOT through the Grace of GOD. It would be easier live without air than do good without Grace.
Many don’t understand out TOTAL dependance on Grace for any Goodness we have and that WE depend on it from INSTANT to INSTANT.

When our Lady said at Fatima, “Only our Lady of the Rosary can help you”

You are safe to take this literally because she meant it literally.

The third secret mentions that the Apostasy of the Church begins at the Top. I know this is difficult to hear. We live in a very difficult time. The best and worst of times. Many Saints will come from this time. But we are in the LAST MINUTE of the LAST HOUR.

The church has been constantly changed the 1960’s. The result? many churchs are for sale across the country. Two generations of Catholics have NOW BEEN LOST. Look and talk to those around you. At best a child may be baptized now. But the time and period of this faith being passed from Generation to Generation is lost. The last Generation to recieve the Sacrements has passed years ago. There are a FEW now who follow in this tradition. Most deeply rooted in tradition of a church which came before 1960 and Vatican II.

There have been many mistakes made. But the most important is the changing of the Mass. And more important than that is NOT releasing the entire 3rd Message of Fatima. Everyone of this Faith needs to petition the Holy Father with E-Mails. In hopes that he find the strength to admitt the shortcomings of the church.

And a Third of the Stars will be swept from the Heavens. These are the fathers we are losing now.

As every one of us grew up. We were taught to admit our mistakes and be honest. Is this whats being done with Vatican II? I don’t believe so. You can quietly sit here and think an hope so. But the time for sloth and hesitation is through. We need to et our act together NOW. We are losing Souls by the Thousands and many of THIS FAITH. Let alone the Fathers lost.

The Third Secret of Fatima must be released in its entire complete form. The Blessed Mother cannot be WRONG. She said give this to the PEOPLE after 1960. They will not understand it till then. This time has come and gone. In 2000 a loose interpretation of the Message was released. BUT NOT THE WORDS OF OUR BLESSED MOTHER. This is NOW admitted by Pope Benedict and rationalized. This message is NOT for the Pope. It is for those of this religion to give you direction and hope in these OH SO DIFFICULT TIMES.

I beg of you, go to fatma.org and listen to the message their. Go to You Tube and listen to Art Bell with Father Gruner and the Third Message. This is so urgent now that we cannot wste another minute. The stakes are higher NOW than ever before in history.

The part of the third message released? Our Blessed Mother sadi. If Russia is NOT consecrated thier will be much to suffer. Russia will spread her error throughout the world, causing wasr and persecutions of the church, the good will be martyred, the Holy father will have much to suffer, and various nations will be destryed.

If my requests are headed, Russia will be converted and there will be a period of peace.

Russia is NOT converted. MOF their are less Catholics their 300 thousand than many places in the world per population. Russia just declared war on terrorism.

The excecution of a Pope beneath a Wooden Cross outside a half ruined city was also mentioned in 2000 as part of the message. This is also wrongly interpreted as the past event of the GSW in the 80’s to the Pope. That Pope survived. The Blessed Mother said this Pope would be excecuted. BIG difference and I doubt she would be wrong.

Look I know this is hard to hear. But its relivant to PEACE on Earth and exactly the point of this thread. We cannot go farther backwards and the salvation of souls depends on the CATHOLIC FAITH. This message [3rd message of fatima] has to be released by Pope Benedict.

When you all say a Rosary for Wold Peace on Friday make a mention of the Holy Father having the strength to see the light. And for the light to direct him in the correct decision.

I ask all of you to do ONE THING. PRAY THE ROSARY and ask out Blessed Mother for advice on this matter. If you do not believe my words or fatima.org or the Coast to Coast broadcast on You Tube? Ask the Blessed Lady to lead you to the TRUTH.

Sorry for my mis-spelled words, and grammer. This was speed typed.

God Bless!

 

[wisdomseeker]

Upholding the faith isn’t a sin. Disobeying a legitimate order from the Pope, as Archbishop Lefebvre did, is. As for “opposing the Pope to his face,” the ONLY time we may do such a thing is if the Pope orders us to commit a sin (the same is true of bishops and all other legitimate authority – religious and secular alike). Pope John Paul II didn’t order Lefebvre to commit a sin. Even so, if an individual should claim that any given command is sinful, the burden of proof lies on the one making said claim, and all benefit of the doubt is to be given to the one making the command.

St. Padre Pio was, among other things, forbidden to hear confessions for a time. He could’ve disobeyed, claiming that he had to uphold the Catholic faith and that people needed him to hear their confessions. He too could’ve invoked the “state of necessity” clause in canon law. Furthermore, I heard a rumor that his bishop was a practicing homosexual (which may or may not be true). Yet even if the rumors about Padre Pio’s bishop were true, and even if Padre Pio felt there was a genuine need for him to hear confessions, he nevertheless still obeyed the orders WITHOUT QUESTION, no matter how unjust they may have seemed to folks like you or me. The same thing can’t be said for Archbishop Lefebvre, unfortunately.

i dont find this a very good comparison. it is different being forbid from hearing confession for while and sit and watch the Church being distroyed by the rebels. those who wanted to uphold the Tradition of the Church were excommunicated and those who dragged the Church down and wanted to destroy the Faith were embraced. something is very wrong with this picture. the Council gave power to the people and less power to the clergy. that is why we are in the mess we are today. now, i understand why my priest once said: that the pope said: lets give the Church back to the people. since when the Church belonged to the people? it doesnt seem to me that the NT has any indication that the people ruled over the Apostles. does it?

uvcr.catholicam.org/mp3s/Fath…andLiturgy.mp3

uvcr.catholicam.org/fr_rmp3.html

 

[Tadghe]

Hi Mick,
…] It would have spared me a lot of typing…
Margaret

Hopefully you’re still checking this thread. If so, I for one want to thank you. I learned more from your post about the organization that I had known before

Thank you!

 

[DavidJoseph]

  			Originally Posted by **DavidJoseph** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6461961#post6461961) 				
  		*Makes no difference.  Jesus told  Peter that what he bound on earth was bound in heaven -- no exceptions,  not even if there were a crisis of faith in the Church.*

**

Wasn’t **Saint **Joan of Arc burned at the stake for bieng a heretic?

Apples and oranges. St. Joan of Arc hadn’t disobeyed any legitimate orders from anyone.

 

[DavidJoseph]

That was exactly my point as well. Lefebvre never DID teach a new faith…Unlike many other bishops who did. Lefebvre did nothing but uphold the Catholic faith…Unlike many disobedient bishops. What strikes me is that Lefebvre can’t be disobedient - in order to help continue the traditional sacraments - without being character-assassinated…Yet liberal bishops may be disobedient and teach a new religion without similar treatment.

I agree; there’s disobedience all around. But why stoop to the level of others who are disobedient?

Actually, this may not be 100% correct according to canon law.

But you are already judging that evil has been done, whereas most people, looking at a highly complicated situation, would suffice to say that, while there may be strong arguments for why evil may have been done, they will not assert it as fact.

What Lefebvre did was objectively wrong; I make no claim as to the state of his soul. Even if he wasn’t culpable for any sin in this instance, it still wouldn’t make what he did morally right; it would just lessen or eliminate his personal culpability.

There was a greater need than for just one bishop…possibly a stranger, picked by JPII rather than Lefebvre…to be consecrated at some vague, future date. From a practical perspective this doesn’t make sense, does it?

What doesn’t make sense is why Lefebvre wouldn’t submit to the Pope’s judgment.

Lefebvre was quite clear about his duty to the Church’s supreme law versus the pope’s orders, which would have hampered that law.

God’s will can be found in the orders of one’s superiors. So goes a quote from some saint (I can’t remember which). I’m also reminded of St. Margaret Mary Alacoque – Jesus advised her to obey her superior even if what her superior said conflicted with what He wanted her to do (we’re not talking issues of sin here – read a biography on her and you’ll understand what I mean).

If anything, Lefebvre, by his actions, taught his flock to disobey, be prideful, and act like they know better than the Church.

This is your opinion. My opinion is that Lefebvre, by his actions, taught that in the face of great confusion, error, and apostacy, when souls are at stake, one should hold fast to the things that have been passed down to us by the Church which have been proven to be efficacious helps against that confusion and error.

It’s a fact! If the SSPX had humbled themselves and submitted to legitimate authority, they would have been reconciled a long time ago! Yes, they have legitimate concerns and problems, but they could have ALREADY met with Church leaders and ironed out such difficulties and thus bypassed this predicament they’ve created for themselves.

Actually, there IS a comparison here. Archbishop Lefebvre was one priest out of thousands too. And St. Padre Pio probably heard the confessions of thousands of souls and helped them become holier.

There’s a difference between being one of many priests who can supply the same absolution, versus being the one and only priest who is willing to put everything on the line to preserve the traditional sacraments.St. Padre Pio could’ve decided that saving souls was too important for him to obey his bishop’s orders not to hear confessions,As I said, St. Pio was one of many priests supplying the same sacrament.

There may not have been so many priests offering the TLM and other traditional sacramental forms at the time, but there were nevertheless MANY offering the Mass and the sacraments. While I much prefer the Extraordinary Form Mass over the Ordinary Form any day, I know that going to one over the other won’t in itself make me holy – I have to have the proper dispositions as well (which would be necessary regardless of whether I went to EF or OF). The traditional sacraments won’t help save souls just because the sacraments are traditional; it’s the grace derived from said sacraments that helps save souls – no matter whether the rite is pre- or post-Vatican II. Besides, God is in control here, and while the whole Lefebvre affair merely goes to show He can (and does) bring good out of bad situations, the TLM could very well have been brought back into the mainstream even sooner had Lefebvre obeyed. Then, during the time when bishops had to first permit Latin Masses in their dioceses, maybe more would have been willing to allow them. I believe the reason why so many were reticent about it was because they associated the Latin Mass with Lefebvre, disobedience, schism, etc. Let’s face it – traditionalists ARE NOT lily white in such matters. While in many cases they were (and still are) wrongly persecuted and whatnot, in other cases they helped bring this stuff on themselves.

 

[DavidJoseph]

Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter. Lefebvre, basically the only one still providing the traditional sacraments felt that he had to ordain. Whether he was wrong or not, canon law still provides for this.

It goes like this:

Can. 1323 The following are not subject to a penalty when they have violated a law or precept:

4/ a person who acted coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or due to necessity or grave inconvenience unless the act is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;

Can. 1324 §1. The perpetrator of a violation is not exempt from a penalty, but the penalty established by law or precept must be tempered or a penance employed in its place if the delict was committed:

5/ by a person who was coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or due to necessity or grave inconvenience if the delict is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;

These are just two small parts of Lefebvre’s arguments. Also, St. Pio probably wasn’t working with canon lawyers the way Lefebvre was.

As I said earlier, I don’t deny that he claimed to act out of fear (but then again, maybe it was pride – I can’t see inside the man’s soul – but I hope it was just fear – better to act out of fear than pride). Yet it still doesn’t make what Lefebvre did a good thing.

Says you. “NO EXCEPTIONS”…Lol. As if there aren’t already precedents of a number of saints being “disobedient” to popes. Athanasius was excommunicated **four **times!

Very, very poor comparison. Most of St. Athanasius’ persecutors were themselves heretics, usurpers, or intrusive emperors. Pope Liberius excommunicated Athanasius UNDER DURESS from such folks. So his excommunications were null. By contrast Archbishop Lefebvre has defied legitimate holders of ecclesiastical office, including Popes Paul VI and John Paul II. It is beyond question that John Paul II was the legitimate successor of Peter at the time and was not acting under duress when Archbishop Lefebvre manifestly violated the Holy Father’s express, personal command by ordaining four bishops without the required mandate of the Holy See in 1988.

Actually, this article on Pope Liberius sheds even more light on the subject:
newadvent.org/cathen/09217a.htm

 

[stevusmagnus]

Opus Dei is a lived out conservative interpretation of VCII including their priests saying the Novus Ordo by the book and adherence in principle to the VCII ideas of collegiality, religious liberty, and ecumenism. They see no problem with the New Mass. They prefer conservative liturgy and doctrine but are silent regarding liturgical abuses and heresies spewed by other clerics and refuse to criticize anything Bishops say or do, even crazy ones. They don’t see the crisis in the Church as that serious. Just your typical human failings, etc. They basically think we all need to be quiet, pray for these people, and work on personal holiness and those things will take care of themselves.

The SSPX is a lived out Traditional Catholic Faith as existed in the Catholic Church Pre-VCII. Their priests exclusively say the TLM and condemn the ideas of collegiality, religious liberty and ecumenism as they were condemned by Pre-VCII Popes. They see the New Mass as a compromise with Protestantism and that, as said in most local parishes, it serves to destroy Faith (as seen by radically diminished belief in Real Presence since it was instituted). They believe we are in the worst crisis in Church history as can be seen by widespread apostasy, liturgical sacrileges, heretical Bishops, sex scandals, etc. They see the root of these problems in the ambiguities of VCII and wrongheaded philosophies of Modern Popes who genuinely but wrongly thought we could merge the Church with the world without losing our souls.

The only similarities between the two groups is that they both practice traditional acts of piety (adoration, rosary, spiritual reading, mental prayer), promote frequent confession, reverence for the Eucharist, wear cassocks, etc.

It is interesting to note that St. Josemaria said the Traditional Mass and even requested a celebret (special permission) to continue saying the Old Mass even after the New one came out. However, he let Opus Dei say the New Mass to please Vatican authorities.

Archbishop Lefebvre personally said the Old Mass and wished that his seminarians and priests say the Old Mass. He was persecuted for it, seminary was attacked, and he was later excommunicated for it.