SSPX poised for formal schism?

[Hoosier_Daddy]

“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.” LG.14.

There is a LOT of wiggle room in that statement for protestants, atheists, buddhists and yep. SSPX too.

The Pope has stated that one need follow his conscience of good and evil. He did not say “well informed” And the rest of his comment on homosexuality and judging. Is relevant as well.

“Who am I to judge them if they’re seeking the Lord in good faith?”

That put together with his recent comments of Atheists do point to this idea of bringing all into the fold. Even the stubborn prideful ones.

Are we saying that the SSPX are seeking the Lord less than homosexuals? Or that following their conscience is not allowed for a small group of dissenters but for the larger secular atheistic world it is good enough?

Honestly I am shocked at the level of condemnation and expectation of “punishment”

That is not Francis’ style.

 

[PJM]

=ProVobis;11306365]That’s a mild way of putting it, especially when long distances of travel are involved. Why do they travel so far if the closest parish is valid enough, for example? So the worst is assumed, often erroneously.

My friend,

it is NOT a matter of being valid. … Both forms ARE.

It’s a matter of personal piety and informed conscience.

While BOTH ARE valid and licit; both do not have identical focus and emphasis and piety.

Many choose to SEEK “The GREATEST” possible good. Which SO LONG as it remains tied to the RCC is too a good thing.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[TK421]

So sad to see what will look to be another official schism in the Church. May God lead them back to the Truth so that they will be saved from everlasting damnation.

May God curse the SSPX so that they do not gain many followers, and that their flock diminishes and scatters. Lord, we pray for many hardships, terrors, and evil to fall upon them so that they may be saved. Amen.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

So sad to see what will look to be another official schism in the Church. May God lead them back to the Truth so that they will be saved from everlasting damnation.

May God lead them back to the Truth so that they will be saved from everlasting damnation.

If you put that to any other group you would be intolerant and against what the Pope is trying to do.

Actually, that statement sounds more like the SSPX views than the actual Church’s.

Perhaps you are closer to them than you realize.

 

[Lormar]

May God curse the SSPX so that they do not gain many followers, and that their flock diminishes and scatters. Lord, we pray for many hardships, terrors, and evil to fall upon them so that they may be saved. Amen.

 

[TK421]

Why are you accusing me of being intolerant? I’m praying for our lost brothers and sisters to return to the Church.

 

[TimothyH]

There is a LOT of wiggle room in that Wiggle room for protestants, atheists, buddhists and yep. SSPX too.

The Pope has stated that one need follow his conscience of good and evil. He did not say “well informed” And the rest of his comment on homosexuality and judging. Is relevant as well.

That put together with his recent comments of Atheists do point to this idea of bringing all into the fold. Even the stubborn prideful ones.

Are we saying that the SSPX are seeking the Lord less than homosexuals? Or that following their conscience is not allowed for a small group of dissenters but for the larger secular atheistic world it is good enough?

Honestly I am shocked at the level of condemnation and expectation of “punishment”

That is not Francis’ style.

Francis’ style is not at issue. The issue is the right of the Church to govern. The right to govern those bound by canon law is absolute.

The Church has every right to enact penalties on her own, especially clergy who are bound by canon law, including removal of faculties and declaration of schism. The Church has no right to enact penalties against those not bound by canon law.

People on this thread act like clergy of the Roman Catholic Church committing schismatic acts is the same as an ecumenical discussion with non-Catholics who’s ancestors committed schismatic acts hundreds of years ago, that it’s no big deal and in another 20 years they will be just like the Methodists. It’s not the same.

These are members of the clergy bound by canon law and the Church has the right to govern them. Period. Francis’ style has nothing to do with it.

-Tim-

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Why are you accusing me of being intolerant? I’m praying for our lost brothers and sisters to return to the Church.

I think you are pulling our leg.

It is obvious that if one posted that about any other group outside the Church it would break forum rules.

Plus the SSPX are not outside (fully) anyway.

Are you demonstrating the absurd by being absurd?
Dittos

 

[TK421]

@Hoosier:

What specific part of my post do you believe to be absurd and/or breaking forum rules?

 

[PJM]

=TK421;11306740]So sad to see what will look to be another official schism in the Church. May God lead them back to the Truth so that they will be saved from everlasting damnation.

AGREED

May God curse the SSPX so that they do not gain many followers, and that their flock diminishes and scatters. Lord, we pray for many hardships, terrors, and evil to fall upon them so that they may be saved. Amen.

IS THIS A “WWJD?” response? I think not.

Luke 9:4-55" John answered, “Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he does not follow with us.”

But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you.”

When the days drew near for him to be received up, he set his face to go to Jerusalem. And he sent messengers ahead of him, who went and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him; **but the people would not receive him, because his face was set toward Jerusalem. ** **And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said, “Lord, do you want us to bid fire come down from heaven and consume them?” **[55] But he turned and rebuked them

It remains God’s task and sole responsibility to both JUDG and Punish as HE DEEMS RIGHT.

Your not “wrong” but I urge caution in what you pray for. PRAY for thier conversion and salvation.
.

 

[TK421]

I disagree. I have prayed such things upon myself many times and for other people, and I believe it is very edifying and beautiful prayer and very much in sync with the spirit of the scripture and the successive apostles. I think you should try to widen your boundaries by trying it. It may seem awkward at first, but most new things are.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I disagree. I have prayed such things upon myself many times and for other people, and I believe it is very edifying and beautiful prayer and very much in sync with the spirit of the scripture and the successive apostles. I think you should try to widen your boundaries by trying it. It may seem awkward at first, but most new things are.

Widen your boundaries by closing your mind? I’ve never heard that approach before.

How can you reconcile your thought process with Pope Francis?

 

[TK421]

What do you believe I am closing my mind towards? Also, I love Pope Francis. I think he played a role in my conversion.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

What do you believe I am closing my mind towards? Also, I love Pope Francis. I think he played a role in my conversion.

Then study him, and be lead by him.

but part of me thinks you are still only half serious.

I don’t have a dog in the fight so to speak. I don’t care for the SSPX nor do I despise them and make them into the “enemy” Nor do I presume to judge them. And certainly not any more than any other person who may not be all in the fold.

You want to convert them, fine. Go to it. Get out there brother and preach it to them, but all of this “a pox be on your house” nonsense is just anger and pride.

Why is it that we engage in apologetics with any other group except this one?

If you really believe they will go to hell ( I don’t) then you should find a way to preach the saving gospel to them. Not just make them the one group it acceptable for Catholics to bash. When we do that, we are no better than the modern culture that does that to us.

 

[TK421]

Then study him, and be lead by him.

but part of me thinks you are still only half serious.

I don’t have a dog in the fight so to speak. I don’t care for the SSPX nor do I despise them and make them into the “enemy” Nor do I presume to judge them. And certainly not any more than any other person who may not be all in the fold.

You want to convert them, fine. Go to it. Get out there brother and preach it to them, but all of this “a pox be on your house” nonsense is just anger and pride.

Why is it that we engage in apologetics with any other group except this one?

If you really believe they will go to hell ( I don’t) then you should find a way to preach the saving gospel to them. Not just make them the one group it acceptable for Catholics to bash. When we do that, we are no better than the modern culture that does that to us.

I don’t see how what you’re saying applies to me. If I despise the SSPX, then why would I pray for them? That isn’t compatible. Also, there was never any point where I condemned them to Hell, or said that we should exclusively engage with SSPX. That just came out of thin air.

edit: And yes. I think a rational case can be made that it is best to be particularly focused on them while the severing is still ‘fresh’. There are prudent and imprudent ways of handling a situation, and one cannot engage with a Muslim in the same way that one can engage with the descendent of a protestant that broke off from the Church, or in the same way with an atheist, or the same way with an SSPX member.

 

[Lormar]

So sad to see what will look to be another official schism in the Church. May God lead them back to the Truth so that they will be saved from everlasting damnation.

May God curse the SSPX so that they do not gain many followers, and that their flock diminishes and scatters. Lord, we pray for many hardships, terrors, and evil to fall upon them so that they may be saved. Amen.

Isn’t it sinful to ask God to curse anyone? Instead of asking God to curse the SSPX, thank Him because there but for the grace of God goes yourself.

 

[ProVobis]

My friend,

it is NOT a matter of being valid. … Both forms ARE.

It’s a matter of personal piety and informed conscience.

While BOTH ARE valid and licit; both do not have identical focus and emphasis and piety.

Many choose to SEEK “The GREATEST” possible good. Which SO LONG as it remains tied to the RCC is too a good thing.

God Bless you,
Patrick

I think you missed my point. I’m looked at as a traitor for even going to the Spanish Mass at my own local parish. Do you not think I feel a little self-conscious about that? How’s that good?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t see how what you’re saying applies to me. If I despise the SSPX, then why would I pray for them? That isn’t compatible. Also, there was never any point where I condemned them to Hell, or said that we should exclusively engage with SSPX. That just came out of thin air.

edit: And yes. I think a rational case can be made that it is best to be particularly focused on them while the severing is still ‘fresh’. There are prudent and imprudent ways of handling a situation, and one cannot engage with a Muslim in the same way that one can engage with the descendent of a protestant that broke off from the Church, or in the same way with an atheist, or the same way with an SSPX member.

To each their own. Like I said, no dog in the fight for me. IF you want to bring the 10 plagues down on them and let that type of self righteousness rule your spiritual life go right ahead.

Or we could treat them at least as decently as a Lutheran.



Knock yourself out.

 

[codefro]

To each their own.QUOTE]

Where is this in the Catechism? I am dying to know where.

 

[Mike30]

Brothers and Sisters, lets all pray for humility, and obedience, like St. Francis, that we never forget it never pays to jump ahead of the Church, or to agree that the Church conforms to the current culture, some things never change.

It also is a scandal that there is 40,000. protestant sects within Christianity, Our Lord
left One Church not 40,000. We must pray that all will be One, as our Lord decreed.
Obedience is better than sacrifice.

If I remember correctly the Holy Father said that following ones conscience is what is important. All of those people could in fact be following their conscience. So, obviously there is no problem with there being 40,000 or even 400,00 protestant sects as long as they are in fact following their conscience.