SSPX Priest Celebrates Mass in Saint Peter's Basilica

[boomerang]

Apparently it’s not your decision to make. Let us know how far you get when you tell the Vatican it should have been.

And it IS vitriolic to keep using the term schismatic when they have not been formally declared as such.

I can’t tell the Vatican anything! I’m just a lowly serf. . But both John Paul 2 and CDF Prefect Cardinal Muller have called them schismatics. I don’t think it’s going to get any more formal than that.

 

[Duane1966]

Are the SSPX in FULL communion with Rome? No.

Are efforts being made to remedy that? Yes.

This is what I have taken away from this story and discussion here…

Someone in Rome, perhaps even His Holiness himself, is negotiating to bring the SSPX to heel. This is far above our pay grades; but I APPLAUD the Holy See’s efforts and patience. And the Holy See HAS been patient. We are five popes into this saga (counting the 33 days of Pope John Paul I) and this should be settled.

If the Protestant Reformation were handled a little differently, what would our world look like today? The Vatican is trying desperately to keep them from breaking off ALL ties, and sucking even MORE Catholics away from licit masses and sacraments.

The SSPX WILL have to compromise on some key issues. There’s no getting around that. The question is; will they?

A very thought provoking statement, Commenter.

We don’t know exactly WHAT the SSPX would do/will do if given regular status. What we DO know is that the SSPX’s main mission since 1970 has been the preservation and promotion of the Latin Mass. Not an easy task when so many are against you. If they were allowed to expand as they want to, THEN they would have more manpower to do MORE of God’s work…

As far as maintaining their own institutional identity is concerned; what order/fraternity DOESN’T want to do that? I can see that a local bishop will want some control over SSPX priests operating within his diocese, and that is very likely an issue being discussed in Rome as we speak.

I attend a regular diocesan parish, where ONLY the Novus Ordo is offered. Despite Pope Benedict’s motu proprio in 2007; requests for the Latin Mass at my parish have met with a chilly (and that’s being nice) reception. IF… the SSPX were to be given regular status within the Church, I would jump there in a second.

My wife and I are fairly young, active in our parish, and I would love to help with evangelizing, religious education, and other things that make a good parish come alive.

I truly believe the Novus Ordo to be a valid mass. However… knowing what I know about the theological contrasts between the two, the origin of the Novus Ordo, and just my own personal preferences; I would prefer to attend and be a part of a parish that offers the Tridentine Mass.

For those that have read thus far; I humbly ask that we continue to keep this discussion civil, so that we may keep this discussion going. It is VERY RARE that a decent conversation about the SSPX can take place; and I want to keep it going. I find this more stimulating than debating “Sola Scriptura” for the eight millionth time…

There is a TLM offered once a week in the diocese I live in. It has good attendance and is growing. I would say 70% of the attendees are YOUNGER than the age of 30.

What can I say about the SSPX? I do NOT agree with some of the things that they have done. BUT I am thankful that they have kept up the fight to allow the TLM to survive.

I have no problem with the vatican allowing them to celebrate a mass in a side chapel on the 100th anniversary of…you guessed it, The death of the GREAT ST. PIUS X.

p.s. Did maybe St. Pius X get some strings pulled upstairs to allow this to happen?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

There’s no need to make this a personal attack. And you say* I’m* not being charitable? I’m stating facts. Don’t get your knickers in a knot.

         ***************************************************************

HEAD OF CDF ARCHBISHOP MULLER:
***"The leaders of the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) are in schism, and remain suspended from the sacraments, says the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

In an interview with the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, Archbishop Gerhard Müller said that although Pope Benedict XVI lifted the canonical excommunication of SSPX prelates, they remain suspended from the sacraments because “by their schism they have broken away from communion with the Church.”

Archbishop Müller said that while talks with the SSPX have reach an impasse, the Vatican will not close the door to reconciliation. However, he said, a restoration of full communion would require the SSPX to accept the authority of the Church and of the Pope."***

               **********************************************************

THE WORDS OF BISHOP FELLAY:
** “The situation of the Church is a real disaster, and the present Pope is making it 10,000 times worse.”

“To imagine that some people continue to pretend we are (still) decided to get an agreement with Rome. Poor people. I really challenge them to prove they mean. They pretend that I think something else from what I do. They are not in my head.”

"So when Pope Benedict requested that we accept that the Second Vatican Council is an integral part of Tradition, we say, ‘sorry, that’s not the reality, so we’re not going to sign it. We’re not going to recognize that’.”

"…so we tell them (the parishioners of SSPX), ‘The New Mass is bad, it is evil’ and they understand that. Period!’” Of course the Roman authorities “were not very happy with that.”

““If the present Pope (Francis) continues in the way he started, he is going to divide the Church. He’s exploding everything. So people will say: it is impossible that’s he’s the Pope, we refuse him. Others will say [and this is presently Bishop Fellay’s position]: “Wait, consider him as Pope, but don’t follow him**.”

“But… God is able to have the Church continue and even can work through these imperfect ministers. “But once again”, he repeats, “don’t follow them. Follow them when they say the truth, but when they tell you rubbish, you don’t follow them on those points.”

Bishop Fellay noted that we cannot simply obey the present Popes without question…

“From the start,” he said, “we have the impression that we have something wrong with this Pope (Francis)"…

Fellay on Pope Francis’ statements and teachings: “What Gospel does he have? Which Bible does he have to say such things? It’s horrible. What has this to do with the Gospel? With the Catholic Faith? That’s pure Modernism, my dear brethren. We have in front of us a genuine Modernist. How much time will be needed for people in the Church to stand up ‘by no means!’ (will we accept this new teaching). I hope and pray this will happen. But that means an enormous division in the Church.”

   ****************************************************************

Again, I think most reasonable people would have to wonder at the wisdom of allowing this society to hold Mass at St. Peter’s Cathedral. They aren’t in communion. They are schismatics according to both JP2 and CDF head Cardinal Muller. And it sounds like their
Superior General thinks it’s perfectly OK to be disobedient to the Pope. And insulting, to boot. This is how Protestantism got started. Remember? Why not invite the Lutherans to St. Peter’s for a mass? May as well.

Do you hold that BXVI did not lift the excommunications? Do you hold that the current Pope did not call them Catholic at one point? Do you hold that they are outside the Church, that they are not Catholic?

It seems that you are holding to an emotion and an ideology and cherry picking the words of a Pope from the past. If that sounds familiar, it is exactly what the SSPX do. I would also caution you that on this forum we are to speak charitably about clergy. All clergy, including the three bishops and 500 priests of the SSPX.

Perhaps you think that Rome is in error with the decision they made?

I sense there is some unsaid motivation for your position, and as you can see, all on this forum (not a SSPX forum) disagree with your assessment. We have done so with facts and charitably. I don’t think there is value in continuing this conversation.

I have been charitable and have not run afoul of any forum rules I am aware of. The mods can do their job.

It seems you wish to ignore some developments in the SSPX and thier relations with Rome. I hope you would be as outraged at someone completely outside the Church, such as anglicans holding any sort of service in a Catholic Church.

I have been to a TLM in the basilica. It is a regulated event.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, the prolife movement should be prevalent in any parish. Some kinds of action can be taken on a personal, or parish level. But it also needs to be prevalent on a regional and national level. I don’t see that happening when the SSPX (and PNCC, and other groups) unintentionally hold valuable pro life people out of Catholic united regional and national action.

I’m sure the SSPX leaders favor religious liberty. I am just saying their websites have an awful lot about defending laity from encroachment of liberties by the Vatican or diocese, but almost nothing about defending laity from encroachment by the Federal or state government.

Keep in mind Pius XII, or for that matter St. Pius X, frequently spoke about the need for a UNITED Catholic response on a regional, national, and international level, to the secular humanism of their day. What would they say about the various sub groups each doing their own thing today, indifferent to the real common enemy?

How is this possible. The only SSPX members are clergy. The attendees are indeed Catholic. So how can they draw away from the Catholic voice of the pro life movement? What is to stop you from setting up a table outside of Mass at the SSPX church? I’ll bet the priest would allow it. I will tell you this, I have been to an SSPX Mass in my old diocese. It was very pro life. But it was also a very rural setting. These people were farmers with large families. They are not marching, or organizing events because they are not able to. I get the sense in my current diocese that this is also the case, though I have not attended. (nor will I until either I have no TLM to go to, or full communion is realized.) But at our diocesan TLM it is also a very “organic” rural folk who attend.

Now a whole new subject is the criticism that not just the SSPX get but indeed all TLMers get of being extremely cliquish. I moved here from the west. You know where people talk and smile and are friendly. Now I am in the midwest where no one looks at your face let alone talks to you. Faith back home was public, mormons and JWs were a daily knock away and everyone loved to chime in on what type of “spirituality” they were part of.

Here, you just are. No one talks of it, no one asks about it. So, while in my old hometown the “traditional” folks were seen as “anti social” or cliqueish, here they are just the norm. Go to Mass at the Cathedral, another parish, the College, or anywhere else and it is pretty standoffish. I am still shocked by it sometimes. A lady just today remarked that our family was lovely. (what a nice thing to say) And I must admit I was taken aback. Not because of anything other than it seemed out of place for this area. Admittedly there is a strong bias I have in these generalizations but there is a real and tangible difference. The only other time I have had that feeling was at a SSPX Mass I don’t know what that means, but I sure think about it a lot.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

There is a TLM offered once a week in the diocese I live in. It has good attendance and is growing. I would say 70% of the attendees are YOUNGER than the age of 30.

What can I say about the SSPX? I do NOT agree with some of the things that they have done. BUT I am thankful that they have kept up the fight to allow the TLM to survive.

I have no problem with the vatican allowing them to celebrate a mass in a side chapel on the 100th anniversary of…you guessed it, The death of the GREAT ST. PIUS X.

p.s. Did maybe St. Pius X get some strings pulled upstairs to allow this to happen?

I would agree with this.

Of note we are going to attend a TLM in honor of Pius X this week. It is diocesan.

 

[larsont7]

I can’t believe this is still being “debated”.

By the gracious permission of the higher direction of the Papal Basilica of Saint Peter in the Vatican, the faithful of the church of Saint-Martin-des-Gaules, Noisy-le-Grand (near Paris) – who were in Rome for a summer vacation pilgrimage led by Father Michel de Sivry, of the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) – were able to attend a Mass at the Altar of Saint Pius X, where the saintly Pope’s body reposes.

The SSPX was given permission to say Mass at St. Peter’s Basilica by those who have the power to do so. End of story.

The Lutheran argument is weak since the Lutheran Church (ELCA, Missouri Synod, or any other group) does not have a valid Mass. The SSPX does. What a great honor for the SSPX to be allowed to have Mass said in the place where the body of their patron resides. We should be applauding those who made this decision as it shows they realize that even though the SSPX may be irregular in status, they are still Catholics.

 

[commenter]

How is this possible. The only SSPX members are clergy. The attendees are indeed Catholic. So how can they draw away from the Catholic voice of the pro life movement? What is to stop you from setting up a table outside of Mass at the SSPX church? …
Now a whole new subject is the criticism that not just the SSPX get but indeed all TLMers get of being extremely cliquish…

I don’t doubt the attendees or the clergy favor prolife. So are the PNCC, Anglo-Catholic Anglican Continuum, and similar, but separate groups. But the SSPX are what I would call isolated prolifers, as compared to people at the diocesan TLM, who are very much part of the diocesan prolife, religious liberty, etc. The various Catholic or almost Catholic separate groups are not part of the united Catholic response.

The proabortion lobby doesn’t really care if you set up a table outside Mass; they do care if Catholics start networking during the week, all the prolifers in this district, all the religious liberty supporters in this metropolitan area. The anti-Catholic media DO pay attention when Catholics are united to their bishop. (Eastern Rite Catholics have a bishop in another city, but that bishop is in communion with the Latin Rite bishop, and they participate directly with Latin Rite Catholics on prolife, religious liberty, etc - unlike SSPX, which often encourages suspicion towards the local bishop).

I realize this thread isn’t about religious liberty. Forgive me for digressing, but the thread includes themes - unity vs division, confidence vs suspicion of the local bishop, a common Catholic Action 7 days a week, – vs – isolated pockets of prolifers, suspicious of the other pockets of prolifers and keeping a distance from the prolife bishop - that all impact our response to religious liberty.

In 2014 the Wolf is at the door folks. Religious liberty is very much under attack by a combination of Media and Government. St. Pius X was a strong proponent of **united **Catholic response against secularism; shouldn’t we be also?

 

[ProVobis]

Again, I think most reasonable people would have to wonder at the wisdom of allowing this society to hold Mass at St. Peter’s Cathedral. They aren’t in communion. They are schismatics according to both JP2 and CDF head Cardinal Muller. And it sounds like their
Superior General thinks it’s perfectly OK to be disobedient to the Pope. And insulting, to boot. This is how Protestantism got started. Remember? Why not invite the Lutherans to St. Peter’s for a mass? May as well.

This entire thing was also supposed to be an internal matter. Obviously there’s more to it than what Cardinal Muller says to the public. Or Bishop Fellay, for that matter.

 

[Lormar]

I can’t believe this is still being “debated”.

The SSPX was given permission to say Mass at St. Peter’s Basilica by those who have the power to do so. End of story.

The Lutheran argument is weak since the Lutheran Church (ELCA, Missouri Synod, or any other group) does not have a valid Mass. The SSPX does. What a great honor for the SSPX to be allowed to have Mass said in the place where the body of their patron resides. We should be applauding those who made this decision as it shows they realize that even though the SSPX may be irregular in status, they are still Catholics.

Thank you.