SSPX says I will go to hell for not being SSPX

[JReducation]

My apologies.

As you appear to have more recent information, could you expand on how their irregular status pertains to Roman Catholics attending and participating at an SSPX Mass? Are they in full communion with Rome?

EDIT: The link I provided is also provided in this Jan 17, 2012 CAF Apologetics thread. Do I follow it, or do you have something that refutes it?

The SSPX is not schismatic nor are they heretics. Their current status is irregular, precisely because they’re in Limbo. They are validly ordained Roman Catholic priests who are suspended until they submit to conditions that the Holy See lays down for them.

A mass celebrated by a suspended priest remains a valid mass. It is an illegal mass, because a suspended priest may not celebrate mass for the faithful. But this does not change the validity of the mass. The weakness is in the state of the priest, not the mass itself. The mass is as valid as that of the pope.

It is not a sin to attend a mass at an SSPX chapel. What the Church has warned about and people have confused is that attendance at a mass at an SSPX chapel should be because the individual is drawn to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and does not have it available, not because the individual supports or promotes the separatist ideas of the SSPX.

This gets a little murky for people. There is a difference between agreeing with the SSPX on their questions and their love for tradition and agreeing with them when they take the position that it is Rome that mus convert, not them. The latter part of that is what the Church warns the laity not to be pulled into. The former part is fine. Anyone can have questions. Anyone can love the Tridentine Form, anyone can love tradition. When you start to say that the Church has to think as you think, then you’re on a slippery slope. That’s the warning.

You can attend to satisfy your Sunday obligation, but avoid adopting their philosophy and attitude toward the Vatican.

I thought every Catholic priest had faculties in Rome? Like Jerusalem.

A Catholic priest who is suspended does not have faculties anywhere. Every Catholic priest who has faculties granted to him by a bishop or by a male religious superior carries them over to Vatican City, not to Rome. The Diocese of Rome and Vatican City are not the same thing.

It’s a sin if one participates in their Masses/services actively.

It is not a sin to participate in Orthodox masses or Jewish services. How ever, there is a condition that must be met. If it is a mass in an Orthodox Church, one must have permission to receive Holy Communion. Orthodox priests have faculties. Their sacraments are valid and licit. They are not suspended priests or excommunicated priests. All of these restrictions were lifted by Pope Paul VI. However, because there is still an incomplete communion on some theological points, even though there is communion on the sacred (in sacris) it is important to get permission so as not to give the false impression that everything is hunky dory.

As to participating in Jewish service, this is not a sin either. Popes have done it and so have saints. St. Maximilian Kolbe often led the Shabbat prayers for his Jewish cellmates when he was in concentration camp. Bl. John XXIII was an Archbishop during WW II. He helped rescue a boatload of Jewish children. They were alone, frightened and had no Rabbi, he would lead them in Shabbat prayers.

If you attend a wedding or a memorial service for a deceased person, you are participating. If you’re at a wedding, you’re a witness. If both parties are Jewish, the marriage is valid. If you’re at a memorial service, you’re praying for the dead.

What is not allowed is to make this a routine.

There are exceptions to this rule. Those of us who are Hebrew Catholics often attend services with our families (parents, siblings, etc) on special holy days. That is part of our family tradition and it’s part of being Jewish. The Church does not frown on this. You’re not attending out of a sense of obligation to the Jewish faith, but out of a sense of duty to your family and as a cultural practice. We may be Catholic, be we are still Jews. A zebra cannot lose its stripes because it runs in the Kentucky Derby.

On final comment on the SSPX. The Church does not recognize the lay faithful as SSPX. When we speak about the SSPX, we’re speaking about their clerics and lay brothers. The laity cannot be SSPX because the SSPX is not a diocese or an independent church. Therefore, the laity cannot incardinate into the SSPX. They remain incardinated in the diocese where they reside. That bishop is their Ordinary, not the bishops of the SSPX.

The laity can be friends of the SSPX, sympathetic to their situation, even benefactors, but they are simply Catholic, not SSPX Catholic. If we started to say that there is such a thing as an SSPX Catholic, then we would be creating a Schism. We would be speaking of them as if they were a Church.

Even in my case, I’m a Franciscan Brother of Life (aka: Franciscan). I’m not a Franciscan Catholic. I’m a Latin or Roman Catholic. Franciscan is does not define my ecclesial affiliation. There are Franciscans who are Eastern Catholics. If you call them Roman Catholics they’ll throw a sandal at you. I know, because I live with one and I do it all the time.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[maurin]

Br Jr,

Forgive me, but if the Society has been allowed to celebrate Mass in St Peter’s and they are suspended, how does one reconcile the seeming contradiction?

 

[Jeanne_S]

I hate to show my ignoran e but what is SSPX?

 

[JReducation]

Br Jr,

Forgive me, but if the Society has been allowed to celebrate Mass in St Peter’s and they are suspended, how does one reconcile the seeming contradiction?

There is none. St. Peter’s Basilica is not a diocesan Church. It is not part of the Diocese of Rome per se. Suspended priests may not celebrate mass in any parish church, religious house or chapel belonging to a diocese or religious community. The Basilica has its own administration, a type of rector and it’s relationship with the Diocese of Rome is extraordinary, because it’s in a different country. The rules governing the Basilica are different from diocesan rules. If they went to one of the parishes in Vatican City, there are five, the pastors can probably make the same exception. Those parishes are outside of Rome. They’re in Vatican City. That relationship between Vatican City and the Diocese of Rome is not an ordinary one.

Suspended priests are allowed to celebrate private masses. The way around the law is to ask for permission to use one of the side chapels to celebrate a private mass. If you happen to have a group of pilgrims with you, it’s still a private mass, because it’s not for the general public. While at the same time, the Church would not deny any Catholic permission to approach and join in while the mass is taking place. But it remains a private mass celebrated by a suspended priest.

If you notice, the SSPX is very careful not to refer to their chapels as parishes. As long as it’s a chapel, it’s private.

Places like private chapels, conventual chapels and the Basilica of St. Peter’s do not fall under the rules that apply to diocesan places or worship. The Orthodox have celebrated mass at St. Peter’s in the Eastern Catholic Chapel. It’s considered a private mass. As long as it’s a validly ordained priest, the rector can grant permission even if he’s suspended or in schism. There are several basilicas around the world that are not part of the diocesan structure. Lourdes is also one of them. I don’t know about Fatima. I do know that Lourdes is not part of the diocese. The Basilica of the Immaculate Conception in Washington is not part of the Archdiocese of Washington. It’s part of Catholic University. In those cases, many of the rules that apply to a diocese or a religious community, do not apply to these places.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Splagchnizomai]

Thank you and bless you, Br JR! :byzsoc:

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

It is not a sin to participate in Orthodox masses or Jewish services.

Okay it’s not always an out-and-out sin. But it should not be done at all. Quite frankly I’m scandalised at Popes leading Jewish prayer services.

 

[JReducation]

Okay it’s not always an out-and-out sin. But it should not be done at all. Quite frankly I’m scandalised at Popes leading Jewish prayer services.

Have you ever attended Matins celebrated by Carmelites?

Matins is based on the Shabbat prayer service. They pray the same psalms and follow the same format. The Orthodox Jews actually chant it. That’s where the early Carmelites learned to chant Matins, from the Jewish Shabbat. It was carried over into Christianity.

There is nothing in a Jewish Shabbat service that we don’t already do in Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[maurin]

Thank you and bless you, Br JR! :byzsoc:

Yes, thank you Br JR.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Have you ever attended Matins celebrated by Carmelites?

Matins is based on the Shabbat prayer service. They pray the same psalms and follow the same format. The Orthodox Jews actually chant it. That’s where the early Carmelites learned to chant Matins, from the Jewish Shabbat. It was carried over into Christianity.

There is nothing in a Jewish Shabbat service that we don’t already do in Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

There’s just a basic difference. One’s the public prayer of the Church, a liturgical function. The other is being prayed by schismatics and the out-right non-Christian.

 

[JReducation]

There’s just a basic difference. One’s the public prayer of the Church, a liturgical function. The other is being prayed by schismatics and the out-right non-Christian.

They are still praying to the same God with the Word of God. The sacredness of God and his Word does not change. Pay close attention to what Pope Benedict said on this matter when he prayed in the Synagogue in NY. Also, pay attention to what he has to say about the Jews and the Orthodox. The Jews are our older brothers and sisters in the faith and the Orthodox are the other lung of the Church. Those are not my words, but the words of one of the brightest popes that we have seen in more than a century. Pope Benedict is neither a fool nor a heretic. He’s orthodox, faithful and an excellent theologian.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

They are still praying to the same God with the Word of God. The sacredness of God and his Word does not change. Pay close attention to what Pope Benedict said on this matter when he prayed in the Synagogue in NY. Also, pay attention to what he has to say about the Jews and the Orthodox. The Jews are our older brothers and sisters in the faith and the Orthodox are the other lung of the Church. Those are not my words, but the words of one of the brightest popes that we have seen in more than a century. Pope Benedict is neither a fool nor a heretic. He’s orthodox, faithful and an excellent theologian.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Well if it didn’t really matter, why did the Apostles cease praying with the Jews when the Temple was destroyed and the Church became the public and visible institution that it is? It just strikes me as completely wrong. Such behaviour would not have been tolerated not that long ago. We were once bound by canon law not to even step foot in a house of false-worship.

It’s just… wrong. If you want to pray with Jews and Protestants and Orthodox Christians, invite them to evening Vespers.

 

[JReducation]

Well if it didn’t really matter, why did the Apostles cease praying with the Jews when the Temple was destroyed and the Church became the public and visible institution that it is? It just strikes me as completely wrong. Such behaviour would not have been tolerated not that long ago. We were once bound by canon law not to even step foot in a house of false-worship.

It’s just… wrong. If you want to pray with Jews and Protestants and Orthodox Christians, invite them to evening Vespers.

Actually, the first generation of Jewish Christians attended both Shabbat in the temple and the Eucharist at home on Sundays. When the temple was destroyed around 70 AD, there was no more temple to go to. That’s why they stopped going.

The Church did not become public until the time of Constantine. By that time, you’re already into the fourth or fifth generation European Christians. None of the Jewish Christians were left except the hermits at Mt. Carmel who continued to use the Jewish rituals in what would later become the Liturgy of the Hours. They took the format for Matins directly from the Shabbat.

When the first desert hermits began to get organized, they continued the Jewish customs for several centuries until Benedict organized Liturgy of the Hours for the West and Basil for the East. It was a natural evolution, not a sudden break. The Benedictines set out to organize the Liturgy of the Word and Eucharist as well, creating the first breviaries of missals in print (actually hand copied).

In addition, the pope is above Canon Law. He is the Living Law of the Church. He can change any law made by any previous pope or any ecumenical council. This was decreed by Pope Boniface VIII. The prohibition of which you speak was in the code of 1917. It is not in the code of 1983. Pope Paul VI changed the code after lifting the excommunication of the Orthodox and after decreeing that the Jews have a special relationship with the Church.

Paul VI was not only the pope, with the power and authority to change Canon Law, but also one of the brightest Canon Lawyers of the 20th century. He died before he was able to promulgate it. As the law goes, everything comes to a stop when the Chair of Peter is vacant. The project was picked up again in 1980 by Bl. John Paul II. He made some additional changes to Canon Law, adding two sections that were never in previous laws: the section on prelatures and the section on societies of apostolic life. He added these sections, because he created the first prelature and authorized the first societies of apostolic life in the history of the Church. In 1983, he promulgated the Code of Canon Law as revised by Pope Paul VI, with the two additions that he had made. As you can see, the popes can change Canon Law, delete from it and even add things that were not there before. Appealing to older versions of Canon Law does not hold water in our current Catholic tribunals.

Whether or not Canon Law said that a Catholic could not attend a non-Catholic service, that’s not what it says today. Since this was never a moral law nor a dogma, but an ecclesiastical law, the pope can change it.

Observe what Boniface decreed.
**
The sovereign pontiff is the most fruitful source of canon law; he can abrogate the laws made by his predecessors or by Ecumenical councils; he can legislate for the whole church or for a part thereof, a country or a given body of individuals; if he is morally bound to take advice and to follow the dictates of prudence, he is not legally obliged to obtain the consent of any other person or persons, or to observe any particular form; his power is limited only by Divine law, natural and positive, dogmatic and moral. Furthermore, he is, so to say, the living law, for he is considered as having all law in the treasury of his heart, (De Constit.) .**

It is unreasonable for us to take exception to what the pope changes, when he has the power to change it and the right to change it. The pope is not talking about heresy here or doing something immoral. He’s talking about prayer in exceptional situations.

As I said before, if you attend the wedding of a Jewish friend or relative, you are participating by being there, because you are serving as a witness. But that’s an exceptional situation. The same if you go to a funeral or memorial service.

In the case where popes have prayed the Shabbat with Jews and allowed Orthodox clergy to celebrate mass at St. Peter’s, those are exceptional situations, not the daily bread. They have never said to make this our daily routine. They have simply said that it is permissible with the right reason.

 

[JReducation]

The fact is that we do invite non-Catholics to Catholic liturgy, both the mass and the Divine Office. Don’t forget the funeral of Pope John Paul. In the front row were all of the Orthodox, Jewish and Protestant leaders. Brother Roger of Taize asked for permission to receive Holy Communion and Cardinal Ratzinger granted his request and personally gave him Holy Communion. These are not things that happen every day.

You may be finding fault with something that is the exception, not the rule. Which would imply that we never make exceptions. We must never make exceptions on matters of faith and morals. But these are not matters of faith and morals. These are matters of disciplines. The law comes from the heart of the pope himself. If we question the canons, then we question the pope. What unites the Catholic Churches is the papacy, because we are very different from each other. Don’t forget, there are 23 Catholic Churches and we have different codes of Canon Law. We don’t all follow the same code or even the same theology. We have some theological differences between us.

So, throw out the pope and his law, you will have thrown out the link that unites the 23 Churches. Tell the Eastern Catholics that they can’t pray with the Orthodox and you’ll have another schism. One of the conditions that many of the Eastern Catholics came back to union with Rome was that they be allowed to continue to be Orthodox. Rome agreed to this. They feel much closer to the Orthodox then to the Roman Catholics. For Roman Catholics to insist that no Catholic may ever worship at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, no exceptions, would be a slap in the face to the Eastern Catholics who celebrate the exact same Divine Liturgy. It would raise the question, “What’s wrong with the Eastern Divine Liturgy?”

Of course, the answer is, “There is nothing wrong with it. We have full communion in sacris with the East, both Catholic and Orthodox. With special permission, a Catholic or an Orthodox can attend mass on the other side and receive Holy Communion.” That’s the only answer that the Church can give that would not cause a schism with the Eastern Catholic Churches. This way, you keep it clear that there are some issues to be resolved, but at the same time, we’re not enemies. The same applies to the Jews. Pope Benedict has spent most of his life working on relations with the Jews to impress upon them and upon Catholics that we’re not enemies. Now that he’s pope, this is very important to him. It should be important to us as well. That’s part of our communion with the Pontiff.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

By the way, under the Code of Canon Law, the Orthodox are no more schismatics than we are colonial rebels. Their ancestors were schismatics as our ancestors were colonial rebels.

In civil law and canon law, you cannot charge someone with a crime that they did not commit. Most Orthodox were never Catholic; therefore, they never broke away from the Primacy. They were not born into it.

Schismatic is a juridical term used for Catholics only. Only a Catholic can break with the Primacy. A non-Catholic can’t break with what was never part of his life in the first place. That was the logic of lifting the excommunication. They had excommunicated us and we had excommunicated them for what our ancestors did 1,000 years ago and for what the Catholic Church today admits was the fault of both sides. It was unreasonable to apply a legal penalty to each other, when you could not enforce it.

The same would apply to the SSPX. They have bishops. They can walk and form their own Church with Apostolic Succession. They would be schismatic, but not their descendants. The charge sticks only to the person or persons who commit the crime, not to their children.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sirach2]

JReducation]
It is not a sin to attend a mass at an SSPX chapel. What the Church has warned about and people have confused is that attendance at a mass at an SSPX chapel should be because the individual is drawn to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and does not have it available, not because the individual supports or promotes the separatist ideas of the SSPX.

You can attend to satisfy your Sunday obligation, but avoid adopting their philosophy and attitude toward the Vatican.

Brother, I am concerned about the wording of your post here, because it may be misconstrued as “okay to attend” to a casual reader who overlooks the rest of your sentence and clings to the bolded part. I have read the Church’s statements, and they carry a heavier warning.

1. The Masses they celebrate are also valid, but it is considered morally illicit for the faithful to participate in these Masses unless they are physically or morally impeded from participating in a Mass celebrated by a Catholic priest in good standing (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 844.2). The fact of not being able to assist at the celebration of the so-called “Tridentine” Mass is not considered a sufficient motive for attending such Masses.
2. While it is true that the participation in the Mass and sacraments at the chapels of the Society of St. Pius X does not of itself constitute “formal adherence to the schism”, such adherence can come about over a period of time as one slowly imbibes a mentality which separates itself from the magisterium of the Supreme Pontiff. …] Hence we cannot encourage your participation in the Masses, the sacraments or other services conducted under the aegis of the Society of St. Pius X.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CEDSSPX.HTM

Noteworthy is that, although this statement was issued in 1995, it was repeated by Msgr. Perl again in 1999.

1. The situation of the faithful attending chapels of the Society of St. Pius X is more complicated. They may attend Mass there primarily because of an attraction to the earlier form of the Roman Rite in which case they incur no penalty. The difficulty is that the longer they frequent these chapels, the more likely it is that they will slowly imbibe the schismatic mentality which stands in judgment of the Church and refuses submission to the Roman Pontiff and communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
   If that becomes the case, then it would seem that they adhere to the schism and are consequently excommunicated.

For these reasons this Pontifical Commission cannot encourage you to frequent the chapel of the Society of St. Pius X.

PONTIFICIA COMMISSIO "ECCLESIA DEI"
N. 539/99 Rome, 28 September 1999

These two letters warn of the situation that I observed personally in a member who is totally imbued with the SSPX mentality, when he was formerly just a sincere Catholic who looked for a church that offered the TLM. The change was so radical that it pains me even today as I encounter his efforts to evangelize others to this Society’s “mentality.”

 

[pnewton]

Br Jr,

Forgive me, but if the Society has been allowed to celebrate Mass in St Peter’s and they are suspended, how does one reconcile the seeming contradiction?

I would look at this in a somewhat different light. As the situation with the SSPX is in limbo, irregular and in the midst of negotiations, the Holy Father, or one acting on his behalf might act in a way that is pastoral without any attempt to set a precedent or send a message. In other words, there is no contradiction, unless one tries to extrapolate some law or some status based on what was an act of courtesy.

As to the original post, we could have a distortion of a truth into a falsehood. While there is no sin in being a modern Catholic, there are objective mortal sins that are common to our age that* might* result in Hell. If a priest is preaching about the mortal nature of abortion, birth control and other modern ills, then I can see this message being distorted.

 

[Sirach2]

It is too late to edit my post to add the reference to Canon 844.2 , which clarifies further the Church’s position in Msgr. Perl’s letter.

1. §2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid

 

[maurin]

I would look at this in a somewhat different light. As the situation with the SSPX is in limbo, irregular and in the midst of negotiations, the Holy Father, or one acting on his behalf might act in a way that is pastoral without any attempt to set a precedent or send a message. In other words, there is no contradiction, unless one tries to extrapolate some law or some status based on what was an act of courtesy.

As to the original post, we could have a distortion of a truth into a falsehood. While there is no sin in being a modern Catholic, there are objective mortal sins that are common to our age that* might* result in Hell. If a priest is preaching about the mortal nature of abortion, birth control and other modern ills, then I can see this message being distorted.

I’ve come to love the word “pastoral.” It has come to explain away just about everything.

 

[pnewton]

I’ve come to love the word “pastoral.” It has come to explain away just about everything.

It is a real ministry of the Church. It is an extension of the mercy of God. Diminishing the mercy of God, and the pastoral ministry of His Church is as dangerous as diminishing Hell, and the reality of sin. Stray too far one way and you are in danger of moral relativism. Stray too far the other way you risk legalism and pharisee-ism (?).

In this context, it seems only common sense that if you invite a group over, you make them comfortable and help provide their needs. Imagine what would have been the atmosphere if while the Vatican was in conference with the SSPX they would have forbidden their Masses in any Catholic facility.

 

[rhiannonh]

Thank you very much I know not all SSPX are like him but I often wonder if in reality his priest is preaching that message in the pulpit if everyone who attends is just like him?

God bless

The priest may or may not be saying that, just how your friend is interpreted what the priest may or may not being saying. We all get it wrong at times what our priests are trying to tell us…

By the way what is SSPX?

I think your friend will shout you down every time you make a stance so either learn to meet his arguments or like as you first say just pray for him, though very hard to keep mouth shut especially if he is goading you.

May God be with you