SSPX & Sunday Obligation

  • Thread starter Thread starter TLM08
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
franklinf said:
Speaking only in regards to the Latin Rite, the N.O. Mass can’t be considered the “Mass of All Times.” The N.O. Mass was the result of a liturgical commission during Vatican II, not the result of an organically grown and developed liturgy (over the course of 1500 years) as the TLM was.
Click to expand...
Question: is using invalid matter for consecration in any Form or Rite remove the fulfillment of the Sunday obligation?
 
franklinf said:
Speaking only in regards to the Latin Rite, the N.O. Mass can’t be considered the “Mass of All Times.” The N.O. Mass was the result of a liturgical commission during Vatican II, not the result of an organically grown and developed liturgy (over the course of 1500 years) as the TLM was.

*So there is no confusion, I am merely referring to the phrase “Mass of All Ages,” not the validity of the N.O. Mass (which it clearly is) or a difference in the actual Holy Sacrifice (which there is not).
Click to expand...
I disagree. The Mass of all time, the Mass of the Ages is, by definition, the Mass the Church offers. Regardless of the rite, it is all the Holy Sacrifice. The Holy Father has said that there is not conflict between the two forms, either.
 
maurin said:
All quite confusing, JKirk, I agree. But we must be on our guard not to go further than the Church has in our condemnation of the Society, nor to take the Church’s words less stringently than the Church has uttered them in regards to the Society.
Click to expand...
Not in the least confusing, indeed, it is quite clear: Their bishops are excommunicate, their priests suspended ad divinis, and we are warned against the spirit of schism by assistance at their liturgies. I have not condemned anyone, I’ve simply stated facts.
 
franklinf said:
Yes, there is no need go off topic (fulfillment of Sunday obligation at a SSPX Mass). It has been stated by members of the Church hierarchy within the PCED (which deals with matters pertaining to the TLM and SSPX) that one can fulfill the Sunday Obligation at an SSPX Mass. If this was not so, wouldn’t the Pope correct them, lest the faithful be led into sin?
Click to expand...
No, no blanket permission has been given, not anywhere at all. As for what the Holy Father might or might do, I mention again Cardinal Kasper, who says a great MANY puzzling things for which the Holy Father does not muzzle him.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Not in the least confusing, indeed, it is quite clear: Their bishops are excommunicate, their priests suspended ad divinis, and we are warned against the spirit of schism by assistance at their liturgies. I have not condemned anyone, I’ve simply stated facts.
Click to expand...
Actually, Kirk, I disagree that you’ve “simply” stated “facts.”

The facts you have stated are these: The Society’s Bishops have been excommunicated, and the Society’s Priests are suspended for lack of valid incardination.

The facts which supercede Msgr. Perle or Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos’ previous statements is this: the Pope Himself has stated that the Society is an internal matter of reconciliation within the Church. No formal schism exists. Cardinal Castrillon de Hoyos has also explicitly stated that one may fulfill one’s Sunday Obligation at the Society’s Mass, provided certain conditions apply to an individual.

What is quite confusing is how on one hand the Bishops are excommunicated, the Priests are suspended, yet the Church allows that the situation is an internal matter of reconciliation within the Church and that one may fulfill one’s obligation there.

So, Kirk, it is not really all that simple after all. For many, it is really quite confusing. However, I, for one, am grateful that the Church allows me this privilege at this time.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
No, no blanket permission has been given, not anywhere at all. As for what the Holy Father might or might do, I mention again Cardinal Kasper, who says a great MANY puzzling things for which the Holy Father does not muzzle him.
Click to expand...
Just to clarify, are you saying that SSPX Masses, when attended out of specific reasons, do not fulfill the Sunday obligation? Keeping in mind the statements made my the Cardinal and Secretary of the PCED in regards to this issue.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I disagree. The Mass of all time, the Mass of the Ages is, by definition, the Mass the Church offers. Regardless of the rite, it is all the Holy Sacrifice. The Holy Father has said that there is not conflict between the two forms, either.
Click to expand...
The N.O. is a valid Mass. Is it the Mass of the Ages and all Time? No. It was a Mass developed by men at the Second Vatican Council. As Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) said, “In the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries and replaced it…with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.” “The new missal was published as if it were a book put together by professors, not a phase in a continual growth process. Such a thing never happened before. It is absolutely contrary to the laws of liturgical growth.” That is what you call the Mass of all Time?
 
franklinf said:
The N.O. is a valid Mass. Is it the Mass of the Ages and all Time? No. It was a Mass developed by men at the Second Vatican Council. As Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) said, “In the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries and replaced it…with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.” “The new missal was published as if it were a book put together by professors, not a phase in a continual growth process. Such a thing never happened before. It is absolutely contrary to the laws of liturgical growth.” That is what you call the Mass of all Time?
Click to expand...
Pope Benedict is truly an inspiration. Long may he reign!
 
franklinf said:
Just to clarify, are you saying that SSPX Masses, when attended out of specific reasons, do not fulfill the Sunday obligation? Keeping in mind the statements made my the Cardinal and Secretary of the PCED in regards to this issue.
Click to expand...
I’m saying that a blanket permission from the Holy See does NOT exist. Approval from the Holy See does NOT exist. Why anyone would want to attend such a liturgy is beyond me, but even if I understood and sympathized, those letters do not say what they are being purported to say.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Yes, he is an inspiration and a great pope. We would do well to read and apply ALL that he has said
Click to expand...
including that which he has written to the Bishops in regards to the Society’s status as being an internal matter of reconciliation within the Church, and that those who wish to assist at their Masses out of love and devotion to the Traditional Liturgy and Teachings when no other venue is offered to them may assist at the Society’s Masses
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I’m saying that a blanket permission from the Holy See does NOT exist. Approval from the Holy See does NOT exist. Why anyone would want to attend such a liturgy is beyond me, but even if I understood and sympathized, those letters do not say what they are being purported to say.
Click to expand...
who is saying that “blanket permission from the Holy See” exists?

noone, kirk.

What we are saying is what the Church has allowed: if no other venue for assisting at the Traditional Liturgies and Teachings exist, one may, without sinning, assist at the Society’s Liturgies. We are saying no more than the Church has said.

Why would we want to assist at their Masses? Because some of us will no longer accept teachings from the ambo which contradict the timeless Teachings of the Faith and Morality. It is really THAT simple. If you are not assaulted by contradictory teachings where you live, I envy you. I’m not so fortunate. I also do not desire your understanding or sympathy. Only my Holy Mother the Church’s.

We would hope you would follow your own very good advice a couple of posts above and apply ALL that which His Holiness allows.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I’m saying that a blanket permission from the Holy See does NOT exist. Approval from the Holy See does NOT exist. Why anyone would want to attend such a liturgy is beyond me, but even if I understood and sympathized, those letters do not say what they are being purported to say.
Click to expand...
Out of love and devotion for the TLM:
youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top