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RodneyJ
Guest
I noticed this post in another forum and was wondering if someone could explain the difference to me? Thanks.
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Nita
Guest
TLM stands for either “traditional Latin Mass” or “Tridentine Latin Mass”.
SSPX stands for “Society of St. Pius the X” (X=tenth)
The Society is a schismatic group founded by Archbishop Lefebvre. One of the reasons for breaking away was because he did not agree with the changes made in the Mass rite, refused to accept the new rite. He held to the validity of the Tridentine Latin Mass only.
Nita
SSPX stands for “Society of St. Pius the X” (X=tenth)
The Society is a schismatic group founded by Archbishop Lefebvre. One of the reasons for breaking away was because he did not agree with the changes made in the Mass rite, refused to accept the new rite. He held to the validity of the Tridentine Latin Mass only.
Nita
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I_Believe
Guest
Right…TLM stands for either “traditional Latin Mass” or “Tridentine Latin Mass”.
SSPX stands for “Society of St. Pius the X” (X=tenth)
The Society is a schismatic group founded by Archbishop Lefebvre. One of the reasons for breaking away was because he did not agree with the changes made in the Mass rite, refused to accept the new rite. He held to the validity of the Tridentine Latin Mass only.
Nita
And the TLM is no longer suppressed. Pope Benedict issued his Motu Proprio last year which gave permission for clergy to pray the TLM if he desires to do so. No indult needed.
The Pope refered the TLM as now the Extraordiary Form of the Mass, and the Novus Ordo as the Ordinary Form.
Bishop Felay of the SSPX is talking to Rome, and Pope Benedict wants them back. There are issues of doctrine slowing their return.
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Father_Tom
Guest
It continues to amaze me, to read the vicious attitudes displayed by so many in this forum.Right…
And the TLM is no longer suppressed.
I am more and more convinced, that much of the desire for the “old ways” is born out of defiance, rather than reverence.
We all go through periods of disillusionment or rebellion in our lives. It is how we deal with those periods that define us as individuals.
I fail to see, how all this constant carping, to the point of near-schism, brings one closer to Almighty God through faith.
I will continue to pray for charity on this forum.
Fr. T
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Dempsey1919
Guest
I also have a preference for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, but I cannot condone the attendance of a SSPX Mass. By attending an SSPX Mass, you are wounding the body of Christ. You are supporting a disobedient, schismatic group.
The Holy Father has allowed the use of the Tridentine Mass so there is no need to attend a SSPX chapel in order to celebrate this Mass. If you are unable to find a Tridentine Mass, then you should contact the Ecclesia Dei commission. They will help you find the nearest Mass in your area. There are plenty of licit Tridentine Masses nowadays.
However, it should be remembered that the SSPX are still Catholic and should be treated with respect. We should all pray that they renounce their disobedient ways and come back into the fold. The Church certainly has a need for more Priests, and the SSPX would be a welcome addition.
The Holy Father has allowed the use of the Tridentine Mass so there is no need to attend a SSPX chapel in order to celebrate this Mass. If you are unable to find a Tridentine Mass, then you should contact the Ecclesia Dei commission. They will help you find the nearest Mass in your area. There are plenty of licit Tridentine Masses nowadays.
However, it should be remembered that the SSPX are still Catholic and should be treated with respect. We should all pray that they renounce their disobedient ways and come back into the fold. The Church certainly has a need for more Priests, and the SSPX would be a welcome addition.
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LRThunder
Guest
On the other hand, I’ve seen equally vicious attitudes against the EF.It continues to amaze me, to read the vicious attitudes displayed by so many in this forum.
I am more and more convinced, that much of the desire for the “old ways” is born out of defiance, rather than reverence.
We all go through periods of disillusionment or rebellion in our lives. It is how we deal with those periods that define us as individuals.
I fail to see, how all this constant carping, to the point of near-schism, brings one closer to Almighty God through faith.
I will continue to pray for charity on this forum.
Fr. T
But you’re correct, charity is needed on this forum. We should all pray for it. :yup:
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catharina
Guest
The Extraordinary Form of the Mass (in the Latin tradition) has been approved for use by the Holy Father. As time passes, this Mass becomes more available to those interested in attending it.
The primary problem with sspx is that they (priest-members) are follwing the direction (under the leadership) of men (bishops) who are excommunicated. In other words, it’s a “no go” situation for the faithful. It is a mere pretense to say that the four bishops, one of whom is Fellay, are in the process of working things out with Rome since their only valid stance before Rome is to proclaim that they repudiate their acts of schism and return in repentence to the Church. As things exist now, sspx leaders are OUTSIDE the Church through excommunication; those who follow them put their own salvation at great risk.
The primary problem with sspx is that they (priest-members) are follwing the direction (under the leadership) of men (bishops) who are excommunicated. In other words, it’s a “no go” situation for the faithful. It is a mere pretense to say that the four bishops, one of whom is Fellay, are in the process of working things out with Rome since their only valid stance before Rome is to proclaim that they repudiate their acts of schism and return in repentence to the Church. As things exist now, sspx leaders are OUTSIDE the Church through excommunication; those who follow them put their own salvation at great risk.
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GerardP
Guest
As if there isn’t scullduggery going on to stop it. I know a priest who is being stone-walled relentlessly from saying the TLM. The bishop leans on the pastor and the pastor “delays implementation” indefinitely.The Extraordinary Form of the Mass (in the Latin tradition) has been approved for use by the Holy Father. As time passes, this Mass becomes more available to those interested in attending it.
The primary problem is crisis in the Church.The primary problem with sspx is that they (priest-members) are follwing the direction (under the leadership) of men (bishops) who are excommunicated.
Hogwash. Only someone who denies the Church’s teaching on the difference between true and false obedience would think that and presume to speak for Rome on issues that are Rome’s to correct.In other words, it’s a “no go” situation for the faithful. It is a mere pretense to say that the four bishops, one of whom is Fellay, are in the process of working things out with Rome since their only valid stance before Rome is to proclaim that they repudiate their acts of schism and return in repentence to the Church.
You put your salvation at risk by denying the Church’s teaching on true and false obedience. You also put it at risk by engaging the innumerable so-called false interpretations of Vatican II.As things exist now, sspx leaders are OUTSIDE the Church through excommunication; those who follow them put their own salvation at great risk.
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GerardP
Guest
That’s why we are in a battle. Those who are comfortable in the “new ways” are comfortable with an incomplete Catholic formation. They don’t believe the Catholic faith. They resent having to take a hard line on the truth.It continues to amaze me, to read the vicious attitudes displayed by so many in this forum.
Interesting. I’m more and more convinced that the desire for the “new ways” is born out of defiance pride and ignorance.I am more and more convinced, that much of the desire for the “old ways” is born out of defiance, rather than reverence.
A person is defined by what they are willing to fight over. If a person is not willing to fight for the truth, they don’t care about it that much. It’s a good and natural sign that Catholics should argue and fight.I fail to see, how all this constant carping, to the point of near-schism, brings one closer to Almighty God through faith.
Always a good thing but sometimes charity takes the form of a good rebuke. Charity isn’t always docile.I will continue to pray for charity on this forum.
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bear06
Guest
I agree, Gerard, but with some “charity” is always a rebuke. Odds are the person is not as charitable as they think they are and vice versa.Always a good thing but sometimes charity takes the form of a good rebuke. Charity isn’t always docile.
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GerardP
Guest
By that do you mean that people that think “charity” is never a rebuke are not as charitable that they think they are?I agree, Gerard, but with some “charity” is always a rebuke. Odds are the person is not as charitable as they think they are and vice versa.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
“Incomplete Catholic formation”?That’s why we are in a battle. Those who are comfortable in the “new ways” are comfortable with an incomplete Catholic formation. They don’t believe the Catholic faith. They resent having to take a hard line on the truth.
“They don’t believe the Catholic faith”??
Who are you talking about??
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catharina
Guest
Gerard, you can make choices for you. I can make choices for me. I can disagree with the supposed legitimacy of your choices and I do so. Without knowing me in the slightest, you seem to group me with those who “are comfortable with an incomplete Catholic formation.” Yet who said I’m comfortable at all? Am I at peace? Yes. I follow the Faith in making my personal choices and decisions. Through the grace of God (and surely as a result of the prayers of others too) I received a complete Catholic formation through attaining my adulthood, a time when only the Latin Mass was available to all Catholics around the world.That’s why we are in a battle. Those who are comfortable in the “new ways” are comfortable with an incomplete Catholic formation. They don’t believe the Catholic faith. They resent having to take a hard line on the truth.
Interesting. I’m more and more convinced that the desire for the “new ways” is born out of defiance pride and ignorance.
A person is defined by what they are willing to fight over. If a person is not willing to fight for the truth, they don’t care about it that much. It’s a good and natural sign that Catholics should argue and fight.
Always a good thing but sometimes charity takes the form of a good rebuke. Charity isn’t always docile.
Obedience to the chair of Peter can hardly be considered to be a “new way” except by those who might consider themselves to be superior to the Holy Fathers and the Magisterium. God has spared me that delusion and I thank God for that.
Your claim that “A person is defined by what they are willing to fight over” is meaningless to me. A person is defined by faith and by the charity that enlivens his/her life. Shall I speak against those who choose to follow the leadership of men who are actively excommunicated? Yes. I shall and I must do so. Is it an appeal to faith, a rebuke, a warning, when I do so? Yes, it’s all of that. If my statements distress you, then look to you, not to me.
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pnewton
Guest
I have been here for several years and am convinced of the truth in what you are saying, at least in many cases. Humility is on thing that is lacking among many traditionalists. However, I do not believe this can be said to apply to all, or even the majority, as I have found a great outpouring of charity here also. Just wait until one of us has a serious life crisis. The lines that divide us pale to the insignificant boundries that they are. We unite in prayer, as Catholics, as Christians.It continues to amaze me, to read the vicious attitudes displayed by so many in this forum.
I am more and more convinced, that much of the desire for the “old ways” is born out of defiance, rather than reverence.
Perhaps you are right, though. We should all take time out this week especially and pray for those with whom it seems we are the most at odds. I think it would do us all a world of good.
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GerardP
Guest
I’m talking about anyone who is a baptized Catholic, who was educated and raised in the post-conciliar period and when confronted with a hard truth about Catholicism, rejects it.“Incomplete Catholic formation”?
“They don’t believe the Catholic faith”??
Who are you talking about??
I told one friend about “No Salvation Outside the Church” and it was utterly rejected. I didn’t give a fire and brimstone description, I didn’t condemn anyone to Hell. I just stated that the Church has always taught that it was the one, true Church and that it has always stated that there is no salvation outside the Church.
This was by a person with 16 years of “top shelf” Catholic education and lived what would be considered a devout life.
Alternatively, we have people that give the Pope powers he doesn’t have, they extend indefectibility and infallibility far beyond what the Church has taught and what history has demonstrated.
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Like
Guest
I agree with you and I also prefer the TLM, however the pope’s MP has yet to be even mentioned in my diocese, not one word. My parish has two priest on loan from the Philippines due to the shortage of priest in the US. I think these priests feel they are obligated to our bishop & afraid they might make waves & be sent back to the Philippines. And in fact, our pastor is, in April & I really believe because he did make some waves in trying to correct some abuses he inherited from previous pastors. This parish has made it known they own everything even the Liturgy of the Eucharist. This priest has only been here 2 years and the first week here he bought 8 gold chalices to replace glass cups the Church had been using forever. He probably should have consulted the parish council, but didn’t and all h*** broke loose. Lucky for him some anonymous parishioner paid for them. My understanding was that he really didn’t want to use EMHC’s, but the parish members let him know he wasn’t going to take that way from them.I also have a preference for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, but I cannot condone the attendance of a SSPX Mass. By attending an SSPX Mass, you are wounding the body of Christ. You are supporting a disobedient, schismatic group.
The Holy Father has allowed the use of the Tridentine Mass so there is no need to attend a SSPX chapel in order to celebrate this Mass. If you are unable to find a Tridentine Mass, then you should contact the Ecclesia Dei commission. They will help you find the nearest Mass in your area. There are plenty of licit Tridentine Masses nowadays.
However, it should be remembered that the SSPX are still Catholic and should be treated with respect. We should all pray that they renounce their disobedient ways and come back into the fold. The Church certainly has a need for more Priests, and the SSPX would be a welcome addition.
Sorry for the rant!
I haven’t been able to find 1 person on this island who would like to have the TLM.
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bear06
Guest
I mean that those who almost almost always rebuke and those who always use kid gloves are probably not as charitable as they think they are. A healthy balance is needed and not often found.By that do you mean that people that think “charity” is never a rebuke are not as charitable that they think they are?
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Would the priest over in AAA be lying then with this answer:I’m talking about anyone who is a baptized Catholic, who was educated and raised in the post-conciliar period and when confronted with a hard truth about Catholicism, rejects it.
I told one friend about “No Salvation Outside the Church” and it was utterly rejected. I didn’t give a fire and brimstone description, I didn’t condemn anyone to Hell. I just stated that the Church has always taught that it was the one, true Church and that it has always stated that there is no salvation outside the Church.
This was by a person with 16 years of “top shelf” Catholic education and lived what would be considered a devout life.
Alternatively, we have people that give the Pope powers he doesn’t have, they extend indefectibility and infallibility far beyond what the Church has taught and what history has demonstrated.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=53725&highlight=no+salvation+outside+the+church
Would this explanation be a lie?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=7373&highlight=no+salvation+outside+the+church
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GerardP
Guest
What makes you in the slightest think I was referring (or even thinking) about you? What is the basis for this accusation you make against me?Gerard, you can make choices for you. I can make choices for me. I can disagree with the supposed legitimacy of your choices and I do so. Without knowing me in the slightest, you seem to group me with those who “are comfortable with an incomplete Catholic formation.”
“We were made for you O Lord and our hearts are restless until they rest in thee.” --St. Augustine.Yet who said I’m comfortable at all? Am I at peace? Yes. I follow the Faith in making my personal choices and decisions.
Are you sure you follow the faith? Or do you follow what you think or want to think is the faith?
Oh, back when Pope Pius XII was writing encyclicals “Concerning Some False Opinions Threatening To Undermine The Foundations Of Catholic Doctrine.”Through the grace of God (and surely as a result of the prayers of others too) I received a complete Catholic formation through attaining my adulthood, a time when only the Latin Mass was available to all Catholics around the world.
Isn’t is amazing how all of those threats just disappeared?
Alright onto your other points.
Is that why you absolutely ignore St. Thomas’ formulation of what the Church teaches about obedience?Obedience to the chair of Peter can hardly be considered to be a “new way” except by those who might consider themselves to be superior to the Holy Fathers and the Magisterium. God has spared me that delusion and I thank God for that.
You will not fight for the truth. It’s been placed before you and you ignore it.Your claim that “A person is defined by what they are willing to fight over” is meaningless to me.
Take it a step further. What is the greatest Charity? To get a person to Heaven. What is needed to get to Heaven? The Truth of the Catholic Faith. Soft, feel good false charity that does not have the truth in it, is not charity at all.A person is defined by faith and by the charity that enlivens his/her life.
It’s good that you’ve got some fight in you. That’s important. It’s part of being the Church Militant and a soldier for Christ from your confirmation.Shall I speak against those who choose to follow the leadership of men who are actively excommunicated? Yes. I shall and I must do so. Is it an appeal to faith, a rebuke, a warning, when I do so? Yes, it’s all of that. If my statements distress you, then look to you, not to me.
The only problem is, I’m not the one running from the teaching of the Church. The very fact that you deliberately have ignored the Church’s teaching on obedience is evidence that you are not interested at this point in the truth. Perhaps it might disturb your feelings of peace or conflict with some error in your formation.
Until you address St. Thomas’ teaching on obedience, I simply will not believe that you are serious about the truth of what the Catholic Church teaches.
It is there, standing objectively. Truth as tough as nails. I didn’t invent it, It was there before you and I were born. It is reflected in Vatican I and Trent and too many papal encyclicals to count.
The question is, will you embrace it or reject it in favor of obedience without distinction of whether it’s sinful or saintly?
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GerardP
Guest
Well, Fr. Serpa didn’t give much to explain his position and I simply don’t trust Jimmy Akin to explain things. He’s made a number of big errors in the past.Would the priest over in AAA be lying then with this answer:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=53725&highlight=no+salvation+outside+the+church
Would this explanation be a lie?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=7373&highlight=no+salvation+outside+the+church
As to whether the explanations are a lie or an error I can’t say but just look at this:
The affirmation “outside the Church there is no salvation” is explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) as follows:
Do you or does anyone honestly believe that, that reformulation is merely a positive explanation of the same statement?“How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Reformulated positively. 'Outside the Church there is no salvation" would be, “Only in the Church is Salvation found.”
Even if one were to use the body analogy. What part of a body is in “partial communion”? Even a loose tooth is in full communion until it’s not.
There are plenty of other ambiguities and problems in the CCC of the same order.
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