SSPX, TLM, etc...

[GerardP]

I mean that those who almost almost always rebuke and those who always use kid gloves are probably not as charitable as they think they are. A healthy balance is needed and not often found.

Agreed. That’s why we all have to pray for and cultivate the virtue of Prudence.

Fr. Fullerton once said, “We don’t go running into Protestant Churches and yelling that they will all burn in Hell if they don’t convert to Catholicism. We don’t get many converts that way.”

 

[JReducation]

I’m talking about anyone who is a baptized Catholic, who was educated and raised in the post-conciliar period and when confronted with a hard truth about Catholicism, rejects it.

I told one friend about “No Salvation Outside the Church” and it was utterly rejected. I didn’t give a fire and brimstone description, I didn’t condemn anyone to Hell. I just stated that the Church has always taught that it was the one, true Church and that it has always stated that there is no salvation outside the Church.

This was by a person with 16 years of “top shelf” Catholic education and lived what would be considered a devout life.

Alternatively, we have people that give the Pope powers he doesn’t have, they extend indefectibility and infallibility far beyond what the Church has taught and what history has demonstrated.

Which Church are you talking about? The Mystical Body or the Roman Catholic Church? Because I thought that John Paul II made that very clear once and for all. Christ’s power to save is not limitted to the Roman Catholic Church. He saves through the Universal Church which is the Mystical Body.

JR

 

[GerardP]

Which Church are you talking about? The Mystical Body or the Roman Catholic Church? Because I thought that John Paul II made that very clear once and for all. Christ’s power to save is not limitted to the Roman Catholic Church. He saves through the Universal Church which is the Mystical Body.

JR

Nope. Pope Pius XII cleared it up in the encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi

If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ—which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church[12]—we shall find nothing more noble, more sublime, or more divine than the expression “the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ”—an expression which springs from and is, as it were, the fair flowering of the repeated teaching of the Sacred Scriptures and the holy Fathers.

“But it is not enough that the body of the Church should be an unbroken unity; it must also be something definite and perceptible to the senses as Our predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII, in his Encyclical Satis Cognitum asserts: “the Church is visible because she is a body.”[15] Hence they err in a matter of divine truth, who imagine the Church to be invisible, intangible, a something merely “pneumatological” as they say, by which many Christian communities, though they differ from each other in their profession of faith, are united by an invisible bond.”

What statement of JPII are you referring to? He’s either expressing a personal opinion that is in error or he’s being misunderstood which is quite common with his writing and speeches.

The Mystical Body of Christ is the Church Militant, the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant. All those in the state of grace in the Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church is the Church Militant and within it are those who are bouncing in and out of the Mystical Body dependent on the state of their soul.

Any graces active outside the Church are for the purpose of entering the Church.

 

[Like]

Nope. Pope Pius XII cleared it up in the encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi
Quote:
"But it is not enough that the body of the Church should be an unbroken unity; it must also be something definite and perceptible to the senses as Our predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII, in his Encyclical Satis Cognitum asserts: “the Church is visible because she is a body.”[15] Hence they err in a matter of divine truth, who imagine the Church to be invisible, intangible, a something merely “pneumatological” as they say, by which many Christian communities, though they differ from each other in their profession of faith, are united by an invisible bond."

Gerald, what do you think is the meaning of the above underlined?

Thanks

 

[catharina]

What makes you in the slightest think I was referring (or even thinking) about you? What is the basis for this accusation you make against me?

“We were made for you O Lord and our hearts are restless until they rest in thee.” --St. Augustine.

Are you sure you follow the faith? Or do you follow what you think or want to think is the faith?

Oh, back when Pope Pius XII was writing encyclicals “Concerning Some False Opinions Threatening To Undermine The Foundations Of Catholic Doctrine.”

Isn’t is amazing how all of those threats just disappeared?

Alright onto your other points.

Is that why you absolutely ignore St. Thomas’ formulation of what the Church teaches about obedience?

You will not fight for the truth. It’s been placed before you and you ignore it.

Take it a step further. What is the greatest Charity? To get a person to Heaven. What is needed to get to Heaven? The Truth of the Catholic Faith. Soft, feel good false charity that does not have the truth in it, is not charity at all.

It’s good that you’ve got some fight in you. That’s important. It’s part of being the Church Militant and a soldier for Christ from your confirmation.

The only problem is, I’m not the one running from the teaching of the Church. The very fact that you deliberately have ignored the Church’s teaching on obedience is evidence that you are not interested at this point in the truth. Perhaps it might disturb your feelings of peace or conflict with some error in your formation.

Until you address St. Thomas’ teaching on obedience, I simply will not believe that you are serious about the truth of what the Catholic Church teaches.

It is there, standing objectively. Truth as tough as nails. I didn’t invent it, It was there before you and I were born. It is reflected in Vatican I and Trent and too many papal encyclicals to count.

The question is, will you embrace it or reject it in favor of obedience without distinction of whether it’s sinful or saintly?

Truth is Jesus Christ. Why would anyone imagine that the way of Truth means following those who have put themselves outside the Faith? The best I can do for you is to pity you.

 

[Dempsey1919]

What statement of JPII are you referring to? He’s either expressing a personal opinion that is in error or he’s being misunderstood which is quite common with his writing and speeches.

The Mystical Body of Christ is the Church Militant, the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant. All those in the state of grace in the Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church is the Church Militant and within it are those who are bouncing in and out of the Mystical Body dependent on the state of their soul.

Any graces active outside the Church are for the purpose of entering the Church.

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is still a doctrine of the faith. However, this doctrine has also developed legitimately throughout the generations as our understanding of geography, history, and culture has increased. Many people do not understand this doctrine, nor have they bothered to research the theology behind it.

You have to realise who we are talking about when we say that there is no salvation for those outside the Church. The Church Fathers used this quotation mainly in reference to those who had left the Church due to heresy etc. They did not mean those who, through no fault of their own, did not know about Christ or his Church. The same Fathers who taught Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus also believed that the pre-Christian era Jews were saved through an implicit faith in Christ.

Theologians have found it hard to reconcile the universal salvific will of God with Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. This debate reached fever pitch with the discovery of the New Word. How could God condemn thousands upon thousands of innocent people because Europeans had failed to evangelise them earlier? The great theologians of the age developed many theories about this. In fact, there are so many that it would be impossible for me to write about them here. However, the point is that this doctrine was enriched by new theological understanding throughout the centuries preceding Vatican II.

Vatican II did not abolish this doctrine; it was the culmination of a great theological debate. Any developments of this doctrine within Vatican II were the fruit of centuries of study and grace filled debate.

To understand this doctrine fully, you must read Lumen Gentium. This doctrine is hard to debate on a website because there really is a lot of ground to cover. I suggest that all who are interested in this subject should read:

Salvation Outside the Church?: Tracing the History of the Catholic Response by Francis Sullivan.

amazon.com/Salvation-Outside-Church-Catholic-Response/dp/0809133040

 

[JReducation]

Well, Fr. Serpa didn’t give much to explain his position and I simply don’t trust Jimmy Akin to explain things. He’s made a number of big errors in the past.

As to whether the explanations are a lie or an error I can’t say but just look at this:

Do you or does anyone honestly believe that, that reformulation is merely a positive explanation of the same statement?

Reformulated positively. 'Outside the Church there is no salvation" would be, “Only in the Church is Salvation found.”

Even if one were to use the body analogy. What part of a body is in “partial communion”? Even a loose tooth is in full communion until it’s not.

There are plenty of other ambiguities and problems in the CCC of the same order.

The statement that you quoted was affirmed and mandated by Pope John Paul II and written by Cardinal Ratzinger.

JR

 

[JReducation]

Nope. Pope Pius XII cleared it up in the encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi

What statement of JPII are you referring to? He’s either expressing a personal opinion that is in error or he’s being misunderstood which is quite common with his writing and speeches.

The Mystical Body of Christ is the Church Militant, the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant. All those in the state of grace in the Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church is the Church Militant and within it are those who are bouncing in and out of the Mystical Body dependent on the state of their soul.

Any graces active outside the Church are for the purpose of entering the Church.

Pope John Paul II, in union with the Bishops and the revision of Cardinal Ratzinger made it very clear that other faiths can be a means to salvation, even if they don’t have the fullness of truth. Check the Ecumenical Directory of the Catholic Church.

JR

 

[Jo_Benedict]

Note:

This thread is closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.