SSPX: UK District Superior says there will be no regularisation

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A religious never has the right to disobey, except when ordered to sin. If the superior, the general chapter or the Vatican said that you could not celebrate the EF, you have a moral duty to comply, because you’re not being asked to sin. The Church did not order these men to sin by taking away the EF and other traditional elements. I’m not saying that this was the wisest decision. That’s a whole other subject. I’m saying, this was not a command to commit a sin that is identified as such by the proper Church authority.

Even after SP and UE, the Vatican maintains that regular priests can only celebrate the EF in public with the permission of the major superior according to their particular law. In the language of religious life, this means that the superior can grant the permission, if the constitutions allow him to do so, but he does not have to grant it. Obviously, if the constitutions do not allow the superior to grant permission to celebrate the EF, the regular priest may not celebrate it in public. As to whether he celebrates it in private that depends on the rules of his community. In the Franciscan family, no priest can celebrate private mass without the permission of the superior, be it OF or EF. Other religious families have the same law. I have to add a disclaimer here. Most religious superiors give their men carte blanche, except in houses where there is a conventual mass. Those are usually regulated by the local superior.

As to the duty of the FSSR to the faithful, the duty of the superior is to his brothers first. Once he decides what is best for his brothers, charity demands that he and his brothers do whatever they can do to bring the faithful along. However, he cannot refrain from making a choice, because the faithful may disapprove. At the end of the day, superiors make many choices and you can never please everyone. However, what is good for the community will eventually be good for the benefactors and friends of the community. It’s an overflow of grace.

As to the SSPX, I understand what you’re saying and it makes sense. They have put themselves or been put, I’m not sure, in a position where people look to them for guidance on many issues, almost as if they were a magisterium. This must be very frightening to the Superior General.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Br Jr

All I’m saying is that the end of the day the matter is not as clear cut as you make it out to be, many of these people were well formed and trained but came to different choices than others and believed they were doing the right things and had the right to disobey, that is all.
 
Br Jr

All I’m saying is that the end of the day the matter is not as clear cut as you make it out to be, many of these people were well formed and trained but came to different choices than others and believed they were doing the right things and had the right to disobey, that is all.
Just as it is going on today.

I think this is something that will always occur in the Church, especially with the American views on freedom as well as the mistaken idea that many of the laity hold that religious are here to do as they (the laity) wish.
 
Just as it is going on today.

I think this is something that will always occur in the Church, especially with the American views on freedom as well as the mistaken idea that many of the laity hold that religious are here to do as they (the laity) wish.
Dear Br

I’ve come across that idea on the forum but I’ve never met a single lay person who thinks like that, I have to say I’m confused as to where the idea came from 🤷

As for the american views on freedom I’m not sure they had much to do with the now vindicated decision of religious and secular clergy to continue the tradition of The Church, especially as many of these clergy were not american but european and very ‘old fashioned’.
 
Dear Br

I’ve come across that idea on the forum but I’ve never met a single lay person who thinks like that, I have to say I’m confused as to where the idea came from 🤷
I know of parishes that have gotten upset with the religious in the parish when the religious try to live the life of a religious rather than a diocesen.

It is also prevalent here on the forum where the laity want to demand how religious dress and that they somehow have a right to the EF, which SP does not grant, SP is addressed to the clergy and gives them the right to celebrate the EF privately.

All it says about laity is that a pastor needs to willingly accept the request of any “stable group” but some think that any priest they approach must comply with their request.
As for the american views on freedom I’m not sure they had much to do with the now vindicated decision of religious and secular clergy to continue the tradition of The Church, especially as many of these clergy were not american but european and very ‘old fashioned’.
Disobedience is never vindicated.

Or are those who disobeyed and allowed for female altar servers and communion in hand before the Vatican approved it also vindicated?
 
Or are those who disobeyed and allowed for female altar servers and communion in hand before the Vatican approved it also vindicated?
There is a distinction between those who appeal to tradition, and those who do not.

When, for example, our Orthodox brothers object to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception on the ground that the Fathers did not hold it, they disobey the teaching in a very different way than a liberal Protestant who denies that the Blessed Virgin is, in fact, a virgin.
 
Br Jr

All I’m saying is that the end of the day the matter is not as clear cut as you make it out to be, many of these people were well formed and trained but came to different choices than others and believed they were doing the right things and had the right to disobey, that is all.
This is not the way that we govern our people. At the end of the day, those who choose not to obey take the consequences. The same applies here.

Fr. Michael Mary made a choice for the FSsR. Those who chose not to obey had to leave the FSsR.

Bishop Fellay will make a choice for the SSPX. Those who choose not to obey will have to leave the SSPX.

At times you may be given a choice on something. But we’re speaking about the direction of a community. A superior can’t tell his brothers that they can go in two different directions. He hears them out. But at the end of the day, he makes the choice for the direction of the community. Those who disagree are free to leave. This is precisely what Archbishop Lefebvre did when he ordained the four bishops and what Fr. Michael Mary did when he chose to reconcile with Rome. They acted as superiors.

That’s all that’s being said here. Bishop Fellay will choose, as the superior. Others either follow or walk. He can’t go in two directions. It’s not humanly possible. So you see, there is a point when you must obey or find yourself out of communion with the body.

We can’t live in a world where we pretend that people can make choices without consequences or without being punished for them. At the end of the day, the Church authority always has the upper hand. It can choose to be patient and try to dialogue or it can simply close the book and say, “Enough is enough.” This is what happened with the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer (FSsP). Once the superior general made the choice, those who dissented were then told by the Church herself, “The Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer are back under the jurisdiction of the Sacred Congregation and Ecclesia Dei. Either come in or get out. There will be no more dialogue with you. They walked.”

What happens is that once the Superior General submits to the Holy See and to the authorities that govern his institute, he also surrenders control. He is no longer the top dog. He remains the superior, but all of his choices must be approved by the Holy See and by the Prefect for Religious Life in the case of the FSsR. He will be given a great deal of latitude as long as he does not act in conflict with the Holy See. If he does, the Holy See has the right to step in and even remove him from office.

This is not a simple deal of Bishop Fellay accepting or not the Preamble. Either way, there are serious consequences. Just look at the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer. They still do not have canonical status. Their Superior General does not have the same power as other superiors general. Other superiors general can grant permission for their men to make vows and to be ordained, if he wishes them to become priests. They do not have to get permission from Rome or anyone else. Fr. Michael Mary has not been given this right yet. He’s waiting. He has been given a mandate, to govern, guide, teach, nurture and protect his brethren, but not canonical jurisdiction. We know that this is coming. It’s not a matter of “if” but a matter of “how soon”. The Sons have no choice in the matter. Once their superior committed them, they are bound to follow or leave.

That’s how the government of institutes works. That’s why I keep saying that Bishop Fellay needs not only our prayers, but also needs for everyone to back off and let the man think. When people put out articles like the one that appeared in the UK, they’re only distracting their superior. It’s one more thing that he has to deal with. How is that charitable to him?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I know of parishes that have gotten upset with the religious in the parish when the religious try to live the life of a religious rather than a diocesen.

It is also prevalent here on the forum where the laity want to demand how religious dress and that they somehow have a right to the EF, which SP does not grant, SP is addressed to the clergy and gives them the right to celebrate the EF privately.

All it says about laity is that a pastor needs to willingly accept the request of any “stable group” but some think that any priest they approach must comply with their request.
Br,

Perhaps they had a disagreement over the definition of religious life? Regardless its hardly something new, its always been present. And I am sure it goes both ways, as most things in life do.

I fail to see how SP and religious are linked 🤷 I would agree that SP recognises the right the laity have always had of the TLM, but I don’t see how thats relevant to the discussion.

As for how religious dress, I can’t say I’ve ever come across that discussion, but I will take your word that it has come up.
Disobedience is never vindicated.

Or are those who disobeyed and allowed for female altar servers and communion in hand before the Vatican approved it also vindicated?
So lets get this straight, they believed they had the right to celebrate the TLM given to them by the church and that this right wasn’t or couldnt be taken away, it is now accepted this was the case but they were still wrong to disobey? That doesn’t make any sense to me. You cannot place obedience over truth, you cannot say it is more important for people to be obedient to something they know is false and an injustice than it is to disobey, witness to the truth and correct the injustice.

Those who allowed female altar servers and such forth were really wrong prior to the indults granting it because it was never permitted in the past, the TLM is an entirely seperate matter, it had been permitted since at least the early 16th century and in reality for thousands of years. There is no comparision between the two
 
This is not the way that we govern our people. At the end of the day, those who choose not to obey take the consequences. The same applies here.

Fr. Michael Mary made a choice for the FSsR. Those who chose not to obey had to leave the FSsR.

Bishop Fellay will make a choice for the SSPX. Those who choose not to obey will have to leave the SSPX.

At times you may be given a choice on something. But we’re speaking about the direction of a community. A superior can’t tell his brothers that they can go in two different directions. He hears them out. But at the end of the day, he makes the choice for the direction of the community. Those who disagree are free to leave. This is precisely what Archbishop Lefebvre did when he ordained the four bishops and what Fr. Michael Mary did when he chose to reconcile with Rome. They acted as superiors.

That’s all that’s being said here. Bishop Fellay will choose, as the superior. Others either follow or walk. He can’t go in two directions. It’s not humanly possible. So you see, there is a point when you must obey or find yourself out of communion with the body.

We can’t live in a world where we pretend that people can make choices without consequences or without being punished for them. At the end of the day, the Church authority always has the upper hand. It can choose to be patient and try to dialogue or it can simply close the book and say, “Enough is enough.” This is what happened with the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer (FSsP). Once the superior general made the choice, those who dissented were then told by the Church herself, “The Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer are back under the jurisdiction of the Sacred Congregation and Ecclesia Dei. Either come in or get out. There will be no more dialogue with you. They walked.”

What happens is that once the Superior General submits to the Holy See and to the authorities that govern his institute, he also surrenders control. He is no longer the top dog. He remains the superior, but all of his choices must be approved by the Holy See and by the Prefect for Religious Life in the case of the FSsR. He will be given a great deal of latitude as long as he does not act in conflict with the Holy See. If he does, the Holy See has the right to step in and even remove him from office.

This is not a simple deal of Bishop Fellay accepting or not the Preamble. Either way, there are serious consequences. Just look at the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer. They still do not have canonical status. Their Superior General does not have the same power as other superiors general. Other superiors general can grant permission for their men to make vows and to be ordained, if he wishes them to become priests. They do not have to get permission from Rome or anyone else. Fr. Michael Mary has not been given this right yet. He’s waiting. He has been given a mandate, to govern, guide, teach, nurture and protect his brethren, but not canonical jurisdiction. We know that this is coming. It’s not a matter of “if” but a matter of “how soon”. The Sons have no choice in the matter. Once their superior committed them, they are bound to follow or leave.

That’s how the government of institutes works. That’s why I keep saying that Bishop Fellay needs not only our prayers, but also needs for everyone to back off and let the man think. When people put out articles like the one that appeared in the UK, they’re only distracting their superior. It’s one more thing that he has to deal with. How is that charitable to him?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I should have made myself clearer, I was pointing out that people made the choice regarding the traditional latin sacraments and even by your list of reasons could not be held to be in the wrong, though you have critcised them for doing so, that is all. Obedience is not as sometimes you make it appear an absolute, it is a qualified or limited Virtue as St Thomas Aquinas makes clear. One cannot say that for example if the dominicans decided in the past that no dominican could celebrate the TLM they should stop celebrating it or leave. Why? Because the decision was based on what is **now universally accepted to be flawed reasoning **, the TLM was never banned, indeed it has been questioned whether it could even have been banned, therefore one who decided to witness to the truth and justice (as depriving a person of a right given and protected by the church cannot be said to be anything other than an injustice and a grave wrong) cannot be called ‘disobedient’ in a negative sense. You may disagree and I am sure you will but the many hundreds of priests and religious who thought otherwise would likewise disagree with you.

As for the article, it was clearly a mistake if there was no permission from the SG.
 
I should have made myself clearer, I was pointing out that people made the choice regarding the traditional latin sacraments and even by your list of reasons could not be held to be in the wrong, though you have critcised them for doing so, that is all. Obedience is not as sometimes you make it appear an absolute, it is a qualified or limited Virtue as St Thomas Aquinas makes clear. One cannot say that for example if the dominicans decided in the past that no dominican could celebrate the TLM they should stop celebrating it or leave. Why? Because the decision was based on what is **now universally accepted to be flawed reasoning **, the TLM was never banned, indeed it has been questioned whether it could even have been banned, therefore one who decided to witness to the truth and justice (as depriving a person of a right given and protected by the church cannot be said to be anything other than an injustice and a grave wrong) cannot be called ‘disobedient’ in a negative sense. You may disagree and I am sure you will but the many hundreds of priests and religious who thought otherwise would likewise disagree with you.
We’re discussing men in vows here, not the layman in the pew. Men in vows may never disobey unless they are commanded to sin. That’s what St. Thomas said. Even then, one must remember that St. Thomas has no authority over religious life. Even if he had said something else, which he did not, superiors could ignore it as the Church ignores some of Aquinas’ other errors. He is a genius, but was never pope or a major supeior. He was a very humble friar.

Summorum Pontficum is an interesting example, because the fact is that it does say that regular priests (priests who are religious) must abide by the rules of their institutes and by the authority of the major superior. Regular priests were given permission to celebrate the EF in private, not in public. Whether they clebrate it in public is up to the major superior. The major superior has the right to prohibit it. He does not need to have a reason to do so other than, “I’m the superior.”

There is nothing in theology or canon law that requires religious superiors or diocesan bishops to give a reason when they command something, unless the law requires them to do so. For example, the law does require superiors to give an accounting to the general chapter, not to individual religious, not to the bishop, no to the laity, only to the chapter.

Summorum Pontificum does not say that a major superior needs to have a reason to prohibit the EF. It says that he must follow the Ordinary Law of his institute. Every constitution defines the limits and powers of the superior. For example, in the Rule of St. Francis, the powers of the superior are two steps beneat those of Jesus. Francis commands obedience in all things, except sin. He is very specific that this does not mean that I can disobey, because the superior is committing a sin of injustice against me. I can disobey if the superior commands me to do something that the Church says is a sin. It can’t even be something that I believe is a sin. I’m not allowed that freedom to make up my own mind. I must go by what the Church calls a sin.

In other constitutions, the religious have government by consensus. There is a major superior, but he and his subjects must reach an agreement. The Dominicans govern this way.

In other communities, the superior is the voice of Christ and cannot be questioned. The Benedictines govern this way. The abbot even writes the breviary and missal for the community. I don’t think they literally write it, but my guess is that the abbot must approve it or it does not fly. The wording they use is that he has so much power that he can even write their liturgical books and they have to comply.

Obviously, all of these superiors have to comply with canon law, the Sacred Congregation for Religious and with the Holy See.

There have been times when superiors have been wrong and even abussive. But the Church has never dispensed the religious from obeying them, if what the superior commands or prohibits is not a sin. It may be an abuse of power or an error of judgment, but it’s not a sin. T

I think that you need to understand that I don’t have an ax to grind with the EF. My point is that those who prefer the EF cannot defend it at the expense of changing the rules that have governed religious life and dioceses for centuries. If we are to be true to Tradition, then we must be true to the traditions that govern these communities as well.

In this case, if a Franciscan superior says to a friar-priest, “You may not celebrate mass in private.” It’s a rather unusual command, but he’s not asking the friar to sin. In fact, the Rule of St. Francis says that those friars who are priests are not to celebrate mass in private without the permission of the superior. If there is more than one ordained friar in the house, only one can celebrate mass and everyone else, ordained or not must attend. The superior decides who celebrates mass. In this case, the friar who may dearly love the EF can’t celebrate it, because Summorum Pontificum says that regular priests may clebrate the EF in private, but his superior has told him that he cannot celebrate mass in private.

Notice, the superior is not saying, “You cannot celebrate the EF in private.” That would be contrary to the law. He’s saying, “You cannot celebrate mass in private and by the way, you cannot celebrate the EF in public.” The rule says that he has to obey. So does Summorum Pontificum. He is not being told to sin.

By the way, that’s just an example. I don’t know of any superior who is so mean. I know that some superiors put restrictions on when the EF is celebrated, but I have no knowledge of any that prohibit it. I don’t want to start rumors.
 
Going back to Bishop Fellay and Fr. Michael Mary, which is how we got into this area, whatever they decide becomes the law for the community, not matter how fair or unfair it may seem. As long as they don’t violate the law and as long as they don’t ask their brothers to commit a sin, they can command to the extent that the constitutions of their institute allows. This is going to vary from one institute to another. Not having read the SSPX constitutions, I have no idea how far Bishop Fellay can command. I did hear a very good statement by the American Regional Superior of the SSPX who said, “Whatever he commands we must obey.” From that statement, I conclude that they have a very strict code of obedience. 🤷

In any case, let’s stay out of this poor man’s way and stop giving him suggestions. He went to the meeting with his community and he has spoken to the Vatican for two years. He’s had enough (name removed by moderator)ut. Now he needs to make a major decision that may change the history of the Society. That’s between him and God.

I feel as if I’m trying to protect the man and you guys are trying to throw him under the bus by coming up with every possible scenario why his brothers can disobey him and every possible excuse to stay in his soup.

Let’s pray for the man and give him space, as we did with Fr. Michael Mary.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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