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Lormar
Guest
Brother, not to derail this thread, but would you be so kind as to tell me what the very best and most in-depth biography of St. Francis is so that I might become much better acquainted with him?
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JReducation
Guest
Start with The Perfect Joy of St. Francis by Timmerman. His genre is the novel, which is great, because unlike strict biographies that take you from one even to another without transitions, Timmerman fills in the gaps with information about the times. Of course, he uses fictional characters. Everything that he tells you about Francis was written by Pope LeoXIII, I believe. The Pope never got to publish his book. Timmerman purchased the rights to it.
Then you want to get into a serious personality analysis of Francis. The best around is Brother Francis of Assisi by Ignacio Larañaga, OFM Cap.
Finally, the official biography on Francis written by St. Bonaventure. St. Francis of Assisi.
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Lormar
Guest
Brother, thank you!
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Aramis
Guest
Some OCC’s due, others don’t. The Mariavites have ordained women as bishops, and lost their succession, but only in the last two decade have any of the more “normal” OCC’s even been ordaining women as priests (Deacons started in the 70’s, priests in late 80’s.) The last 5 years or so have seen several groups of Old Catholics begin ordaining women as bishops, rendering their further succession invalid on its face.
Last I checked, Utrech still had no women as bishops. Until they do, their succession remains intact.
The Liberal Catholic Church has had women priests for years. It’s why they schismed fro Utrecht in the first place.
The PNCC is no longer part of Utrecht, and do not ordain women; they broke communion with Utrecht over that issue in 2003 when Utrecht began to ordain women. They have, however, begun to flirt with the heresy of Pelagianism. (PNCC Beliefs page note that they don’t believe in the effects of Original Sin…)
The path of the Union of Utrect and its various schisms should be a warning for Traditionalists willing to forego union with Rome… once communion is broken, the social restraints often also fall by the wayside as does the unity with themselves over doctrinal issues.
(The Orthodox equivalents, the UAOC and Priestless Old Believers, likewise, have dabbled into heresies.)
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JReducation
Guest
It’s bizarre the things that one thinks about when you have nothing to do but lay in bed for a day or two. Than I remembered this sentence.
In addition, as part of our allegiance to the Church and to each other, no mendicant is ever allowed to question, critic, disrespect or contradict a Franciscan. This is so serious sin that St. Dominic wrote it into the statutes of the Order of Preachers. St. John Da Matha had a “monument” built of himself washing the feet of St. Francis as a reminder to the Trinitarian friars of their duty to submit to Franciscans. The Carmelites changed their habit to that of the Dominicans, but in brown, at the insistence of the Franciscans. Originally it was striped.
There were condemnations of heresies, but never critiques of the hierarchy, of each other, or of the Benedictines. They too are a protected order.
What the friars have always done for the Church has been to serve in an internal capacity as theologians, lawyers, philosophers, scholars, advisers and diplomats.
This is actually a misunderstanding here. The friars did write extensively about heresies and these were delivered to the appropriate Church authorities. However, the mendicants have a rule that we never ever, under any circumstance, disagree or question any pope or bishop in public or private, unless he commands sin. This could be sufficient cause for excommunication and dismissal.
In addition, as part of our allegiance to the Church and to each other, no mendicant is ever allowed to question, critic, disrespect or contradict a Franciscan. This is so serious sin that St. Dominic wrote it into the statutes of the Order of Preachers. St. John Da Matha had a “monument” built of himself washing the feet of St. Francis as a reminder to the Trinitarian friars of their duty to submit to Franciscans. The Carmelites changed their habit to that of the Dominicans, but in brown, at the insistence of the Franciscans. Originally it was striped.
There were condemnations of heresies, but never critiques of the hierarchy, of each other, or of the Benedictines. They too are a protected order.
What the friars have always done for the Church has been to serve in an internal capacity as theologians, lawyers, philosophers, scholars, advisers and diplomats.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
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Justin_Swanton
Guest
He mentioned it as a possibility in his Eleison Comments letter of 10 November 2012:
By hook or by crook, tomorrow’s Congregations and seminaries must keep their grip on reality, and not get lost in dreams of how “normal” they are, or need to be. Can it be done? With God’s help, yes. But God is God, and for the salvation of souls tomorrow, it may be that He will no longer resort to the classical Congregation or seminary of yesterday. For myself, I shall attempt to follow His Providence in the ordaining of priests - or in the consecrating of bishops. God’s Will be done.
The whole thing really is a tragedy, though one that was in the offing for decades (the decision by Archbishop Lefebvre to consecrate him bishop was not a popular one). Mentally I had parted company with him a long time ago though he was the instrument of my reconversion to the Faith. God had used him.
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curlycool89
Guest
I dont’t think that anyone will or was disputing that.
God can absolutely use these groups, ones that are outside the Church or one that have imperfect communion with the Church, to lead people to the fullness of truth in the Church. Mother Miriam converted via Evangelical Protestantism. Look at the many who have come to the fullness of truth via Anglicanism (into the Ordinariate).
And yes, I’m positive that people can come to understand the fullness of the faith as taught by Vatican II and correctly interpreted by Bl. John Paul II and Benedict XVI through the SSPX.
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ringil
Guest
Oh, I didn’t know that Fellay had even mentioned consecrating Bishops at any point.
Pretty illuminating. Almost like a threat.
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Moore11
Guest
Fellay did not say such a thing. Williamson did.
Lets make sure we get the right Bishop here. Williamson has been dismissed from the society and could be starting a ton of trouble on his own.
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Justin_Swanton
Guest
Actually it’s Bishop Williamson that mooted the possibility of consecrating bishops.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
This is how we got 30k different sects all calling themselves Christian, isn’t it?
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Julia_Mae
Guest
This doesn’t make sense to me. If the SSPX, as I understand the situation, didn’t repudiate Vat2, there’d be no problem. They don’t even understand it, so how could they help anyone else understand it?
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YoungTradCath
Guest
No nononono. It’s Williamson, who is not even part of SSPX anymore (he was expelled by Fellay). Williamson has no interest in being part of our “concilar Church.” Fellay is being quite responsive. It is the other bishops farthest from reunification.
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curlycool89
Guest
I mean through the SSPX in the same way that one can come to the Church through Evangelical Protestantism for example.
Sometimes that initial attraction or initial exposure to Christ comes through a group and can lead someone to further investigate for the Truth and finally find it in the Church in union with the Pope. I mean that God may use it as an avenue of evangelization, as a step towards the truth.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Thank you, I agree.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
UGH! I am so tired of this SSPX-outside-the-Church stuff. They need to just admit their faults, circle the wagons and come back. Besides, I want to be able to live to see a licit episcopal consecration in the EF of (one of) their future bishop(s). From the snippets of the ceremonies I see online, they are extremely interesting.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
And this meeting is supposed to be in the Diocese of Arlington (Vienna, VA)! Hopefully they don’t think to set up shop around here when/if they start their super neo-trad group.
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curlycool89
Guest
I’m sorry, but I lol’d a bit at the term neo-trad. It’s so non-sensical but at the same time gets to the heart of the situation.
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Moore11
Guest
They boasted a whopping 10 (ten) priests on the retreat. And crowed that upwards of 20 could have been there… 
If you ask me a a group that thinks the SSPX is too liberal will have a short life no matter how many Bishops they consecrate. We wont be talking about the “resistance” in 500 years…
I think taking the radicals out of the SSPX will only clear the way for the good Bishops and priests to come back in. Think about it. Fellay is witnessing what will happen to this splinter group. What in the world is stopping the other 480 priests from coming into full communion. I honestly think getting rid of the ultra hard liners in the group will facilitate Fellay’s SSPX to come back into the fold. Honestly I think this will happen relatively quickly.
During last years debacle people were opining that Fellay was trying to avoid a split. Well if this is true it is too late to avoid. So Fellay can go ahead and sign the next thing that comes to his desk. Methinks this could also be why Fellay has not officially responded and the Vatican is giving him “extra” time.
If you ask me a a group that thinks the SSPX is too liberal will have a short life no matter how many Bishops they consecrate. We wont be talking about the “resistance” in 500 years…
I think taking the radicals out of the SSPX will only clear the way for the good Bishops and priests to come back in. Think about it. Fellay is witnessing what will happen to this splinter group. What in the world is stopping the other 480 priests from coming into full communion. I honestly think getting rid of the ultra hard liners in the group will facilitate Fellay’s SSPX to come back into the fold. Honestly I think this will happen relatively quickly.
During last years debacle people were opining that Fellay was trying to avoid a split. Well if this is true it is too late to avoid. So Fellay can go ahead and sign the next thing that comes to his desk. Methinks this could also be why Fellay has not officially responded and the Vatican is giving him “extra” time.
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