SSPX Update - Redux

[GloriaMaria]

I stop and think about the things that some of their priests have said about the Church, the people at the Vatican and even the pope. I often wonder if they always thought this way. Maybe they were attracted to the SSPX because they were traditionalists, not because they were hostile toward Rome. Yet, years later, when they speak they do so with such hostility and without inhibitions that it’s sad.

That makes me think that it can happen to anyone. We’re all human.

I was just reviewing our motives from years ago. We weren’t traditionalists, we were a revert and a new convert. Our home parish was a beautiful OF. What took us to the SSPX? It was two things. Their Eucharistic Crusade (a group for children to encourage them to pray and sacrifice - we found no other good apostolate for kids on the internet at that time) and it was the pro-life advice on their website relating to a specific question we had - and it was very different than the advice we received from our very good (Opus Dei associated) priest at the time.

We thought it would be a sound environment for our family, that the kids would be immersed in good catechism, encouraged in a life of prayer, love for the sacraments, and that they would be around other children with a similar love for the faith. We knew that the EF Mass would be beautiful with nothing silly, yes, but first and foremost our motives were the faith of our children. I can say that in general all that did hold true.

We didn’t think about the wider Church at all. We were focused on the faith of our children. Is this a selfish motive? You can say yes, but it isn’t really. It’s directly related to our most important duties of state. It’s a little misguided, maybe. What makes us search for reasons to stay (with one foot in and one foot out) - it’s the kids. They do know their faith. They do know about the saints, and about Catholic devotions. They learned the Catechism inside and out. We couldn’t have done all that by ourselves. We were sorely lacking in knowledge of the faith being a new convert and revert.

But yes, it can happen to anyone. And once you’re “in” the SSPX (assisting as a lay person, that is) you are immersed in learning all about the “errors” along with the actual good catechism. It’s like the lobster in the pot. The second generation does not learn to love the Universal Church, that’s for sure. The second generation believes that those folks who go to the diocesan Catholic Church aren’t even *Catholics. *I’ve heard that out of the mouths of babes. Not my own, thank God. There but for the grace of God, though…so we try to correct the erroneous teaching at home.

There needs to be a definitive response from Rome for people like us. Then it’s a hot potato.

 

[GloriaMaria]

It’s still, IMO, a selfish thing to do: I want what I want. Regardless of intention, it’s still participating in and encouraging the disobedience of the celebrant. You know I’d like a Mass that isn’t a dog and pony show aimed at displaying what a fabulous speaker/singer the priest is. But that’s what I have. And no matter how irritating he is, if the only other choice was an SSPX service, no matter how reverent, I’m not going. Because loyal to the Magisterium, really means something and needs to be taken seriously.

If people stopped showing up, how long do you think the SSPX would hold out? Going to their Masses is a very bad thing to do - for them. So how about people put their personal desires second and the welfare of the SSPX first, and just go to your local parish?

I find this a little offensive. Please don’t ascribe motives. You don’t know.

Also, the SSPX celebrant has much more education and information than I, and most of us, armchair theologians do (with the obvious exception of Brother and all the others who have studied).* They *(SSPX Priests) are leading us astray, rather than the other way around. I’m not the one who went to the seminary for 7 years or whatever. That’s *his *vocation - I’m just trying to do mine. I’m just a dumb little sheep, and I really mean that.

How about the Holy Father deals with the welfare of the SSPX, and we get a decision from the Vatican? Then I can say “Fiat” and pull my family. Period. It’s really complicated at my house.

I’m sorry for the tone. You got my Irish up.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Gloria, this post touched my heart. We too struggled to ensure that our children had a sound faith and foundation. Since until two weeks ago I had no idea we even had an SSPX like (it is independent) church in this diocese, the SSPX was not an option for us. However, I do see how someone with little background could be swayed by their traditionalism.

I will say though, that knowing what you know now, I highly encourage you to go back to the diocesean parish (especially with an Opus Dei trained priestt!) You are making the efforts in your home now to ensure that your children do not see the universal Church as being “unCatholic”. That seems to me harder than maintaining a family rosary, or regular confession times, or other personal devotions while attending a parish in communion with your bishop and the pope.

I will be praying for you as you take the steps to return to a licit Mass and full communion with the universal Church. :hug3:

I was just reviewing our motives from years ago. We weren’t traditionalists, we were a revert and a new convert. Our home parish was a beautiful OF. What took us to the SSPX? It was two things. Their Eucharistic Crusade (a group for children to encourage them to pray and sacrifice - we found no other good apostolate for kids on the internet at that time) and it was the pro-life advice on their website relating to a specific question we had - and it was very different than the advice we received from our very good (Opus Dei associated) priest at the time.

We thought it would be a sound environment for our family, that the kids would be immersed in good catechism, encouraged in a life of prayer, love for the sacraments, and that they would be around other children with a similar love for the faith. We knew that the EF Mass would be beautiful with nothing silly, yes, but first and foremost our motives were the faith of our children. I can say that in general all that did hold true.

We didn’t think about the wider Church at all. We were focused on the faith of our children. Is this a selfish motive? You can say yes, but it isn’t really. It’s directly related to our most important duties of state. It’s a little misguided, maybe. What makes us search for reasons to stay (with one foot in and one foot out) - it’s the kids. They do know their faith. They do know about the saints, and about Catholic devotions. They learned the Catechism inside and out. We couldn’t have done all that by ourselves. We were sorely lacking in knowledge of the faith being a new convert and revert.

But yes, it can happen to anyone. And once you’re “in” the SSPX (assisting as a lay person, that is) you are immersed in learning all about the “errors” along with the actual good catechism. It’s like the lobster in the pot. The second generation does not learn to love the Universal Church, that’s for sure. The second generation believes that those folks who go to the diocesan Catholic Church aren’t even *Catholics. *I’ve heard that out of the mouths of babes. Not my own, thank God. There but for the grace of God, though…so we try to correct the erroneous teaching at home.

There needs to be a definitive response from Rome for people like us. Then it’s a hot potato.

 

[GloriaMaria]

Gloria, this post touched my heart. We too struggled to ensure that our children had a sound faith and foundation. Since until two weeks ago I had no idea we even had an SSPX like (it is independent) church in this diocese, the SSPX was not an option for us. However, I do see how someone with little background could be swayed by their traditionalism.

I will say though, that knowing what you know now, I highly encourage you to go back to the diocesean parish (especially with an Opus Dei trained priestt!) You are making the efforts in your home now to ensure that your children do not see the universal Church as being “unCatholic”. That seems to me harder than maintaining a family rosary, or regular confession times, or other personal devotions while attending a parish in communion with your bishop and the pope.

I will be praying for you as you take the steps to return to a licit Mass and full communion with the universal Church. :hug3:

We actually do go to our diocesan church part time. We were told to stay home and pray a holy hour on the Sunday’s that our SSPX mission isn’t serviced. We finally realized that we were actually committing a mortal sin by doing this. So, we go to both, and have for some time.
Unfortunately, we left the area with the lovely OF Mass to follow the SSPX. So, our parish church here is a little more, well, you know. LOL. But it’s ok. I’m not complaining.
Like I said, one foot in and one foot out. When a family leaves to follow the SSPX (and they do encourage this) you are left with the SSPX as your entire family in your new location. This is complicated. Now our lives are all tangled up in it. I don’t want to say much more about our personal situation, but it isn’t as simple as you imagine. It’s like leaving your family.
May God reward you for your prayers. Thank you so much. We need them.

Now, back to DiNoia!

 

[Lormar]

I believe that the Church acknowledges that some people have a hunger that is satisfied through the Tridentine Form. At the same time, the Church wants to protect Catholics from contamination. That’s where the point is made that if there is no good reason to attend mass at an SSPX chapel or other in a similar state, then one has a moral obligation to stay away.

I stop and think about the things that some of their priests have said about the Church, the people at the Vatican and even the pope. I often wonder if they always thought this way. Maybe they were attracted to the SSPX because they were traditionalists, not because they were hostile toward Rome. Yet, years later, when they speak they do so with such hostility and without inhibitions that it’s sad.

That makes me think that it can happen to anyone. We’re all human.

It starts with “I will not serve!” and one thing leads to another. If I remember correctly, Archbishop Lefebvre began his seminary simply to train priests in the traditional way. Then, it morphed into being against the new Mass. Next, a question as to the validity of priests ordained in the new Rite. It wasn’t so much that he thought the Rite itself was faulty but that the intention of the ordaining bishop was lacking. Then, when Pope Paul VI asked him to not ordain any more priests and close his seminary down, it was a resounding "No!.

The rest is history.

As for the average Catholic being attracted to the SSPX, I think that nowadays that comes from a lot of people that run blogs who do nothing but cause discontent in the laity by always harping on what this or that bishop did or didn’t do and/or how bad things are in this or that diocese or parish…

 

[JReducation]

Brother Jay, thanks again for a very insightful explanation! This statement jumped out at me.

This is applicable to us all, and I wanted to highlight it both for those one the “right” and “left” who are disobedient, but also for us in the middle who think we are obedient, but stray sometimes in terms of issues of discipline and goverance (witness all the threads looking for ‘infaliable’ statements on issues of prudence but where the Pope has spoken clearly on what he’d prefer us to do. )

Lots of things for me to ponder this morning in cold cold cold Va! :winter:

Pope Paul VI actually sent that message to Archbishop Lefebvre way back about 40 years ago, when all this was just beginning. The message has been repeated often. That’s why I’m always in awe when people go fishing for infallible statements. It feels too much as if they’re fishing for loopholes.

I was just reviewing our motives from years ago. We weren’t traditionalists, we were a revert and a new convert. Our home parish was a beautiful OF. What took us to the SSPX? It was two things. Their Eucharistic Crusade (a group for children to encourage them to pray and sacrifice - we found no other good apostolate for kids on the internet at that time) and it was the pro-life advice on their website relating to a specific question we had - and it was very different than the advice we received from our very good (Opus Dei associated) priest at the time.

Thoughts that come to my mind are:

1. Opus Dei priests: good material. I was educated by Opus Dei priests. Got my doctorate from their university.
2. Our motives can be good and can lead us to dangerous places. You’re not alone in that. All of us have been down that road.

But yes, it can happen to anyone. And once you’re “in” the SSPX (assisting as a lay person, that is) you are immersed in learning all about the “errors” along with the actual good catechism. It’s like the lobster in the pot. The second generation does not learn to love the Universal Church, that’s for sure. **The second generation believes that those folks who go to the diocesan Catholic Church aren’t even *Catholics. ***I’ve heard that out of the mouths of babes. Not my own, thank God. There but for the grace of God, though…so we try to correct the erroneous teaching at home.

I believe that this is the schismatic mind of which the Church has been speaking all of these years and her fear for the rest of us who are tempted to attend the SSPX’s chapels.

There needs to be a definitive response from Rome for people like us. Then it’s a hot potato.

I believe that there has been definitive guidance. The Ecclesia Dei Commission has said that we have a moral obligation to avoid the SSPX chapels. The Commission is authorized to speak for the Holy Father.

As far as the Society itself is concerned, I believe that a decree of any kind that would place the SSPX further from the Church of Jesus Christ or outside of the Church is something that the Holy See would rather not do. No one wants to do this. It would be very painful for all of us.

I’m not an SSPXer and my heart would break to see this happen. I love the Church very much, warts and all. I have stayed inside, despite the insanity of the second half of the 20th century, despite the battles with the left and right, despite the temptations in my own life to go on my merry way. Maybe I’m selfish. But I feel strongly that I have worked very hard to keep up my faith and help others to keep their own and another break like this threatens to be, would truly make me very very sad.

You work hard for something and you put up with a lot. Your hope is to see some fruits. It hurts to see so little. Again, it’s wrong on my part. I should not expect to see anything. I’m not supposed to. That’s for God to take care of that. But as a human being, I struggle with this desire to see things turn out well and to know that I did my part well.

I’m so sorry for admitting this weakness. But truth is truth.

 

[Lormar]

I sincerely hope that they will see Archbishop DiNoia’s good faith and try to reach back to him as he is trying to reach out to them. I’m sure that despite the fact that the letter was a personal one, the Archbishop knew what it would be made public. Therefore, he would not write anything that would upset Pope Benedict or Archbishop Mueller. In other words, if these are the Archbishop’s feelings on the matter, they surely cannot contradict the Holy Father’s feelings. After all, he works for the Pope.

I had hoped they would too, but after reading their reaction to it, I was so saddened, and I could only thank God for what He has done for me through many of His servants, not the least of whom is you, dear Brother.

 

[Lormar]

That’s quite a compliment. His Excellency is quite a scholar. Thank You and a very spiritual man too.

Well, Brother, they weren’t idle words. Several times, as I was reading through His Excellency’s letter, I thought to myself “This sounds like Brother Jay. He has said the same thing.”

 

[PaulinVA]

Well, Brother, they weren’t idle words. Several times, as I was reading through His Excellency’s letter, I thought to myself “This sounds like Brother Jay. He has said the same thing.”

You know, we’ve never seen then together at the same time and same place…

 

[Lormar]

You know, we’ve never seen then together at the same time and same place…

Now that you mention it, you’re right. I have never seen them together at the same place and time either…

:clapping:

 

[Julia_Mae]

I find this a little offensive. Please don’t ascribe motives. You don’t know.

I wasn’t ascribing motives, I said “regardless of intention.”

• They *(SSPX Priests) are leading us astray, rather than the other way around.

Well, that might be true for those uninformed, but hardly applies to anyone in this thread.

How about the Holy Father deals with the welfare of the SSPX, and we get a decision from the Vatican? Then I can say “Fiat” and pull my family

I think the Vatican directive has been quoted here several times. If you have any other choice, you do not go to the SSPX.

I’m sorry for the tone. You got my Irish up.

Actually, I’m pretty sure it rose of its own volition. I realize for you this is a personal issue, but my comments weren’t personal and I stand by them.

 

[Julia_Mae]

We actually do go to our diocesan church part time. We were told to stay home and pray a holy hour on the Sunday’s that our SSPX mission isn’t serviced. We finally realized that we were actually committing a mortal sin by doing this. So, we go to both, and have for some time.

… When a family leaves to follow the SSPX (and they do encourage this) you are left with the SSPX as your entire family in your new location. This is complicated. Now our lives are all tangled up in it. I don’t want to say much more about our personal situation, but it isn’t as simple as you imagine. It’s like leaving your family.

You know, this whole post sounds just like someone describing a cult they got involved with. Thank God you have at least one foot out.

 

[Moore11]

You know, this whole post sounds just like someone describing a cult they got involved with. Thank God you have at least one foot out.

We have been warned not to call the SSPX a cult and I find it insulting that so many times people insinuate that. The fact of the matter is that the “cult like” qualities you speak of could be attributed to any legitimate group of Catholics. Opus Dei is a great example. We would never say “gee, I’m sorry it is so hard to get away from the Jesuit influence you have had, sounds like you are leaving a cult” Heck if the definition of a cult is being shunned or that it is hard to get out then I am in a cult called being a lifeteen core member for the youth group…

The SSPX are a declaration away from being in Full Communion. And as of this post they are Catholic and the Pope could fully reinstate them at any time if he wanted to. Now this may not be likely but I think we should be charitable. I think we should refrain from comparing them to a cult when tomorrow, next year, next month, or 20 years away they could be in full communion.
Had Fellay signed the agreement, they would be fully Catholic right now and there was nothing in that agreement that said they must renounce what you deem “cultlike” practices.
Lets just be careful about what we are labeling others. We get upset (rightly so) when an SSPX person makes some kind of anti semetic statement. Lets not fall into the same trap of “Us Vs Them” that the SSPX can be guilty of.

 

[Moore11]

You know, this whole post sounds just like someone describing a cult they got involved with. Thank God you have at least one foot out.

You could copy and paste this response and post it on an anti Catholic forum about someone describing thinking of leaving their faith, or any faith for that matter.

Person A
“I’m Trying to leave the Church but it is hard. I have one foot in and one foot out. Most of my friends and family are involved in my parish so it is socially hard and I feel so much pressure to remain Catholic. They have told me they are the ones with the Truth and no one else has it. Even my priest wants me to stay. It is just so hard…”

Person B
“You know, this whole post sounds just like someone describing a cult they got involved with. Thank God you have at least one foot out”

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Pope Paul VI actually sent that message to Archbishop Lefebvre way back about 40 years ago, when all this was just beginning. The message has been repeated often. That’s why I’m always in awe when people go fishing for infallible statements. It feels too much as if they’re fishing for loopholes.

Yes, and when 15 people give good, reasoned, reasonable responses they can still say, “Well, that’s not a papal bull.” Sad.

1. Opus Dei priests: good material. I was educated by Opus Dei priests. Got my doctorate from their university.

Lots of Opus Dei influence here in the Arlington Diocese. I get a daily email from Opus Dei and it is always quite a whallop of good sense and faith!!

I believe that this is the schismatic mind of which the Church has been speaking all of these years and her fear for the rest of us who are tempted to attend the SSPX’s chapels.

I believe that there has been definitive guidance. The Ecclesia Dei Commission has said that we have a moral obligation to avoid the SSPX chapels. The Commission is authorized to speak for the Holy Father.

As far as the Society itself is concerned, I believe that a decree of any kind that would place the SSPX further from the Church of Jesus Christ or outside of the Church is something that the Holy See would rather not do. No one wants to do this. It would be very painful for all of us.

I’m not an SSPXer and my heart would break to see this happen. I love the Church very much, warts and all. I have stayed inside, despite the insanity of the second half of the 20th century, despite the battles with the left and right, despite the temptations in my own life to go on my merry way. Maybe I’m selfish. But I feel strongly that I have worked very hard to keep up my faith and help others to keep their own and another break like this threatens to be, would truly make me very very sad.

You work hard for something and you put up with a lot. Your hope is to see some fruits. It hurts to see so little. Again, it’s wrong on my part. I should not expect to see anything. I’m not supposed to. That’s for God to take care of that. But as a human being, I struggle with this desire to see things turn out well and to know that I did my part well.

I’m so sorry for admitting this weakness. But truth is truth.

I share in your desire to see a good outcome here (and for the LCWR, and other situations).

I fully understand the desire of those who have been in for thick and thin to see things turn out well and even to be acknowledged for their part in it.

I am frustrated by those who drifted away and are now back and demanding to see perfection. It doesn’t help at all for there to be in-fighting so I try my best to bite my tongue. It doesn’t always work though. I am ashamed to admit my weakness and lack of help to build unity and make the Universal Church truly universal.

 

[Lormar]

I am frustrated by those who drifted away and are now back and demanding to see perfection.

Who demanded perfection? When I returned, I knew full and well what I was returning to.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Who demanded perfection? When I returned, I knew full and well what I was returning to.

Yes, but others - here and IRL - complain about the problems (real and perceived) that caused them to drift away. And then seem shocked to discover that perhaps the local parish is not EWTN and that every priest is not Fr Z and that the parish school is not fully staffed by the Nashville Dominicans.

The efforts put in by those who stayed are not acknowledged or appreciated. The fact that some stayed simply for lack of interest in moving is decried.

Anyway, I promised to bite my tongue not one post back! I don’t accuse anyone specifically, just the general mindset that I’ve heard.

 

[Lormar]

Yes, but others - here and IRL - complain about the problems (real and perceived) that caused them to drift away. And then seem shocked to discover that perhaps the local parish is not EWTN and that every priest is not Fr Z and that the parish school is not fully staffed by the Nashville Dominicans.

The efforts put in by those who stayed are not acknowledged or appreciated. The fact that some stayed simply for lack of interest in moving is decried.

Anyway, I promised to bite my tongue not one post back! I don’t accuse anyone specifically, just the general mindset that I’ve heard.

God sees your efforts. Isn’t that enough?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

God sees your efforts. Isn’t that enough?

Yes, it is (or it should be). That is why I admitted to being ashamed of my impatience.

 

[JReducation]

We have been warned not to call the SSPX a cult and I find it insulting that so many times people insinuate that.

No they’re not a cult and we know this. They’re fault, as five popes have said, is to have a warped ecclesiology, which takes us to your next point.

The SSPX are a declaration away from being in Full Communion. And as of this post they are Catholic and the Pope could fully reinstate them at any time if he wanted to.

He would like to do so, but he cannot do so. Has said so. They need to profess what he has pointed out to them. These are not whims that come from his mitre. They are requirements for all Catholics.

1. Vatican II is part of Tradition.
2. Vatican II’s documents are error free.
3. The OF is valid and licit.
4. Only the pope can determine what is and is not part of Tradition.
5. The CCC is the official catechism of the Catholic Church today, not the Baltimore Catechism or that of Pius X or any other.
6. **The sacraments performed in the revised forms are valid and licit.
   **
7. The pope has to be obeyed even in prudential matters.
8. The Society may not share its thoughts with the laity or the media. [No one else is allowed to do so.]
9. The Covenant with the Jews is irrevocable.
10. **The Muslims worship the same God as the Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Orthodox.
    **
11. Protestants and Orthodox are not heretics.
12. You cannot enter a diocese without the permission of the local bishop
13. You must accept the pope’s right to appoint any bishop of his choosing over the prelature of the SSPX, if one were to be founded.
14. With the exception of Bishop Fellay, the other bishops of the SSPX will not be received into the Church with the rest of the Society. Each must ask for admission independently.

Out of this list, there are many points of doctrine that the pope does not have the authority to change and some that hinge on doctrine. I’ve bolded those points.

Those points of discipline, which he can change, he would have to change for the entire Latin Church in order to be consistent, unless the SSPX joins the Jesuits. It’s the only institute that has many indults from the norm. But St. Ignatius negotiated that with the Church. Archbishop Lefebvre did not. Unfortunately, his approach was very aggressive.

Now this may not be likely but I think we should be charitable.

I agree 100 %

I think we should refrain from comparing them to a cult when tomorrow, next year, next month, or 20 years away they could be in full communion.

So can a cult.

Had Fellay signed the agreement, they would be fully Catholic right now

They are fully Catholic. That’s what gives the Holy See authority over them. What they are not is in full communion with the Holy See or better said, in full communion with Peter.

Lets just be careful about what we are labeling others.

This is a very legitimate concern. Labels have never helped anyone.

Yes, and when 15 people give good, reasoned, reasonable responses they can still say, “Well, that’s not a papal bull.” Sad.

That’s the influence of secularism. Secularism has a way of influencing us without our knowledge. In the secular world, people are always trying to find a loophole, a rationale, a justification, a way out, etc.

Lots of Opus Dei influence here in the Arlington Diocese.

It’s my home diocese.

I fully understand the desire of those who have been in for thick and thin to see things turn out well and even to be acknowledged for their part in it.

I don’t know if acknowledged is the word that I would use, but respected is definitely one that I would use. We often don’t get the respect. Liberals and Traditionalists often speak about us as if we have been sitting on our hands observing and doing nothing. I find that to be disrespectful.

Who demanded perfection? When I returned, I knew full and well what I was returning to.

Unfortunately, some people in the SSPX are of the mindset that they will not return until Rome fixes everything. That’s never going to happen. The Church is dynamic, not static. One problem replaces another. It’s how history works.