SSPX Update - Redux

[Dee_S]

In your case, Dee, considering the general thrust of the material you usually cut and paste, I apologize if the use of the word “tactics” offended you. I had never seen something like that in one of your posts before, and it seemed very atypical. In this one case, after all, you are posting statements from EWTN which, though a highly respectable source, are from 2003, years before Pope Benedict lifted the excommunications. Currently, SSPX is not in schism and its remaining bishops are not excommunicated. So why post something from that long ago?

:imsorry:for being so sharp with you, my only excuse is that I have the flu and being awake at 4 am does nothing to curb my scratchy side. Believe me, I do not consciously use “tactics” and am disappointed that it may have seemed so. The reason it caught my attention was firstly in reference to the word ‘cult’, which I noticed had caused something of an upset on earlier posts.

It was the content of that question that riveted me - and I felt that for the sake of those like myself who are X-SSPX-ers (and anyone else) that it would be a comfort to know that their experience, like mine, was of a general nature - most interestingly, over a long time span - and moreso, not limited by the Continental Divide. That this has been remarked on recently (see my update on an earlier post) by Cardinal De Noia as well, kind of ties up the thought process.

My apologies too to Mr Casey (for adding to yr stress load) and posters here, for my display of bad manners.

As far as “cult-like” I think that term is disingenious. It is a favorite term of some, though, who love to apply it to Opus Dei as well, or any organization inside or outside the Church which does not condone same sex “marriage,” Planned Parenthood, etc. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Knights of Columbus labelled as “cult-like” because of the “secrecy” of their meetings and their general social conservativeness. I know none of this applies to you, Dee, but I think the term “cult-like” can be just as damaging as saying “cult.” I’m not saying you use it in a sophistic way, but others on these forums may.

True, I take your point - and it does appear that (as Mr Casey points out)certain words are so evocative that the connotations are considered insulting even if discussed in the context of an intellectual enquiry or debate.

 

[GloriaMaria]

Why on earth would discussing spiritual values in relation to a practical subject be something denigrated enough to make you wince? That’s sort of the point, isn’t it? Jesus and Saint Paul did rather a lot of this.

I’m confused.

Nothing at all about a homily makes me wince. I love them. Wish I could get one every day. That’s the reason why we wait around for Brother to write.

There is certain terminology that came into common use after Vatican II. The SSPX doesn’t use words like “homily” and “Holy Spirit”. There is nothing at all wrong with either of those words, but because they are associated with life post-Vatican II, those who attend SSPX think “modern” when we hear them. There’s no real reason for it though. There’s nothing “modernist” about the Holy Spirit or a homily.

I hope that helps. I didn’t say the wincing was right. It’s just there. It’ll take some work to make it go away.

 

[JReducation]

Nothing at all about a homily makes me wince. I love them. Wish I could get one every day. That’s the reason why we wait around for Brother to write.

There is certain terminology that came into common use after Vatican II. The SSPX doesn’t use words like “homily” and “Holy Spirit”. There is nothing at all wrong with either of those words, but because they are associated with life post-Vatican II, those who attend SSPX think “modern” when we hear them. There’s no real reason for it though. There’s nothing “modernist” about the Holy Spirit or a homily.

I hope that helps. I didn’t say the wincing was right. It’s just there. It’ll take some work to make it go away.

What’s very interesting and it shows a lack of thinking on some people’s part is this.

a. Holy Spirit is used by all of the Romance language groups. This has always been the case, since they evolved from Latin and in Latin the term is spirit, not ghost.

b. Homily is a very Catholic term. Sermon is used by everyone. Homily comes from Greek Catholicism. It’s been in use in Greek Catholicism since the time of the Fathers. The term “sermons” is a younger term.

There is no reason to find objection to either homily or sermon, since today they are used interchangeably, even though they have a slightly different nuance. Homily should end in a concrete application. The sermon can stop at an inspiration.

However, since most people don’t know about that subtle difference, we use both terms to mean the same, preaching.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Nothing at all about a homily makes me wince. I love them. Wish I could get one every day. That’s the reason why we wait around for Brother to write.

There is certain terminology that came into common use after Vatican II. The SSPX doesn’t use words like “homily” and “Holy Spirit”. There is nothing at all wrong with either of those words, but because they are associated with life post-Vatican II, those who attend SSPX think “modern” when we hear them. There’s no real reason for it though. There’s nothing “modernist” about the Holy Spirit or a homily.

I hope that helps. I didn’t say the wincing was right. It’s just there. It’ll take some work to make it go away.

Oh, I see. Thank you for explaining. I didn’t convert until the early 90s, so I thought “homily” was always what Catholics called sermons. I’m getting eddikated here!

I have to admit, it strikes me as fairly odd that “Holy Spirit” would seem in any way objectionable. I suppose it is more modern than “Holy Ghost,” but it needs to be as the connotation of “ghost” is not desirable in connection with Christian theology. It is the most accurate translation in modern English for spiritus, as far as I know.

I understand the “wincing.” There is a poker player who has the nickname “Jesus.” I always winced hearing him referred to that way by announcers. Then I realized that being from the Southwest I knew a bunch of guys named “Jesus” but pronounced “Hay-soos” and it never bothered me at all! So we get “enculturated” with certain things and our responses aren’t thought-out, they just are.

I have an SSPX question,however, as we have no new news - is there any - repression I guess is the word - of spiritual practices by the SSPX? I guess I’m asking if, for instance, contemplative prayer would be discouraged in favor of Rosary recitation or LotH?

 

[GloriaMaria]

What’s very interesting and it shows a lack of thinking on some people’s part is this.

a. Holy Spirit is used by all of the Romance language groups. This has always been the case, since they evolved from Latin and in Latin the term is spirit, not ghost.

b. Homily is a very Catholic term. Sermon is used by everyone. Homily comes from Greek Catholicism. It’s been in use in Greek Catholicism since the time of the Fathers. The term “sermons” is a younger term.

Well, Brother, it’s never too late to* start *thinking.

Which leads me to a question. When did the term Holy Ghost begin being used and why?

 

[JReducation]

Well, Brother, it’s never too late to* start *thinking.

Which leads me to a question. When did the term Holy Ghost begin being used and why?

I have no idea when. I have heard people say that it’s a German expression. This would make sense, because German is not a Romance language. Geist (ghost) has a different meaning for them. It refers to that which is spirit. English is closer to the Germanic languages than to the Romance languages.

That’s as much as I know about it.

But if we listen in Latin, the word is “spiritus”

 

[GloriaMaria]

I have an SSPX question,however, as we have no new news - is there any - repression I guess is the word - of spiritual practices by the SSPX? I guess I’m asking if, for instance, contemplative prayer would be discouraged in favor of Rosary recitation or LotH?

That’s a good question. I’m not sure how well I can answer it from my limited experience. I’ll tell you what is encouraged. First Friday and Saturday devotions, devotions to the Immaculate and Sacred Hearts, daily rosary, compline, vespers, Holy Hour of Reparation, Our Lady of Perpetual Help Devotions, the scapular…those are just a few that come to mind. I’ve never experienced a devotion or spiritual practice being discouraged. The only exception I can think of are the newer Luminous Mysteries. They would never, ever be prayed.

Brother, did you say once that traditionalists were somewhat opposed to Franciscan Spirituality? I seem to remember that.

Maybe someone else who has been an SSPX attendee or who knows about it has more to say about any discouraged spiritual practices.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I have no idea when. I have heard people say that it’s a German expression. This would make sense, because German is not a Romance language. Geist (ghost) has a different meaning for them. It refers to that which is spirit. English is closer to the Germanic languages than to the Romance languages.

That’s as much as I know about it.

Have you ever read Cloud of Unknowing? It’s in late Middle English and the writer often refers to “things ghostly.” Things of the spirit, in other words. So there was a time in English (a Germanic language for the most part) when “Holy Ghost” would have correctly translated spiritus. But not for at least a hundred years, now. Probably longer, actually.

 

[JReducation]

Have you ever read Cloud of Unknowing? It’s in late Middle English and the writer often refers to “things ghostly.” Things of the spirit, in other words. So there was a time in English (a Germanic language for the most part) when “Holy Ghost” would have correctly translated spiritus. But not for at least a hundred years, now. Probably longer, actually.

I love that book. When I was working on my STD, I had to read it and write an analysis of it. Isn’t it awesome?

OK, back to the subject. Yes, the term Holy Ghost has been around in the English language for a very long time. That’s why I tend to believe those who say that it’s of German influence. Because the way that it’s used in Old English is the same way that it’s used in German. Ghost and ghostly is used to refer to that which is spirit, not necessarily a phantasm.

Latin has several words for phantasm, but spiritus is not one of them.

 

[Lormar]

Post Deleted

 

[Lormar]

I could go into a whole separate conversation about the vernacular of the SSPX, and how after some conditioning words like “homily” make you wince.

I can relate and still do a lot of wincing.

 

[Lormar]

ATTENTION PLEASE

Let’s limit ourselves to using language that the Holy See uses.

If you don’t know who or what the Holy See is, pay attention:

1. Pope
2. Prefect of the CDF
3. Vice President of the Ecclesia Dei Commission
4. All of the Congregations of the Vatican

If you pay attention, you will not hear words such as:

1. Cult
2. Heretics
3. Schismatics
4. Apostates

If you feel that you must use such language in order to speak about the SSPX, don’t post. The terms do not apply and are offensive to many people.

The same applies to the other side of the room.

We don’t want to see terms such as

1. Novus Ordo parish, mass, church, Catholic, etc.
2. Conciliar Church
3. Modernists
4. Heretics
5. All . . .
6. Every . . .

As the saying goes, if you can’t be nice, stop talking.

You will be suspended without any warning.

Sorry. Just saw this. I will delete my posts before you see them.

Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Moore11]

:imsorry:for being so sharp with you, my only excuse is that I have the flu and being awake at 4 am does nothing to curb my scratchy side. Believe me, I do not consciously use “tactics” and am disappointed that it may have seemed so. The reason it caught my attention was firstly in reference to the word ‘cult’, which I noticed had caused something of an upset on earlier posts.

It was the content of that question that riveted me - and I felt that for the sake of those like myself who are X-SSPX-ers (and anyone else) that it would be a comfort to know that their experience, like mine, was of a general nature - most interestingly, over a long time span - and moreso, not limited by the Continental Divide. That this has been remarked on recently (see my update on an earlier post) by Cardinal De Noia as well, kind of ties up the thought process.

My apologies too to Mr Casey (for adding to yr stress load) and posters here, for my display of bad manners.

True, I take your point - and it does appear that (as Mr Casey points out)certain words are so evocative that the connotations are considered insulting even if discussed in the context of an intellectual enquiry or debate.

I’ll go ahead and assume you are apologizing to me too…

No problem, I understand that you have some heavy feelings on this matter and an experience that none of us could understand. So, this probably makes it an emotional thing for you. But some language offends.

 

[agnes_therese]

I think I am going to go back to my roots and just call it preaching, as it, “That was some fine preachin’, Father.”

This is one of those times when I find myself wishing for a “like” button.

 

[Lormar]

That’s a good question. I’m not sure how well I can answer it from my limited experience. I’ll tell you what is encouraged. First Friday and Saturday devotions, devotions to the Immaculate and Sacred Hearts, daily rosary, compline, vespers, Holy Hour of Reparation, Our Lady of Perpetual Help Devotions, the scapular…those are just a few that come to mind. I’ve never experienced a devotion or spiritual practice being discouraged. The only exception I can think of are the newer Luminous Mysteries. They would never, ever be prayed.

Brother, did you say once that traditionalists were somewhat opposed to Franciscan Spirituality? I seem to remember that.

Maybe someone else who has been an SSPX attendee or who knows about it has more to say about any discouraged spiritual practices.

Aside from the Luminous Mysteries (GloriaMaria is right - never will you hear them in an SSPX chapel ), the Chaplet of Divine Mercy doesn’t get much air time because the feast day falls on Low Sunday which the SSPX says is a sacrosanct Sunday (being the first after Easter) and no feast, no matter what, can be celebrated on that day. If you read the entry in Dom Gueranger’s Liturgical Year for that Sunday, he says much the same. Anyway, that’s the reason among a few others that the Divine Mercy devotion is never mentioned. It is discourage by omission. They don’t tell you not to, they just don’t ever mention it.

 

[Pat_the_elder]

Sorry, I can’t add anything to the debate. Since there seems to be a lull in the proceedings - as in not much news about the SSPX, I just wondered if there are many of us (like me and pnewton) that just lurk here because of Br Jay’s involvement? The guy’s immense and has given me lots of info for use in dinner table discussions as well as making me look more informed than I am outside Mass (sort of barrack room canon lawyer lol)

 

[Boulder257]

Sorry, I can’t add anything to the debate. Since there seems to be a lull in the proceedings - as in not much news about the SSPX, I just wondered if there are many of us (like me and pnewton) that just lurk here because of Br Jay’s involvement? The guy’s immense and has given me lots of info for use in dinner table discussions as well as making me look more informed than I am outside Mass (sort of barrack room canon lawyer lol)

I think you will find that many of us do the same. I am in that boat myself. He also has a knack for correcting when it’s necessary, bringing brevity when it helps, etc. Not only is he a wealth of information, but I appreciate his style, even when it’s corrective.

He also had (has) what might be the longest lasting birthday thread I have ever seen on a board.

 

[QuestingKnight]

Well, the term ‘Holy Ghost’ has one value for me: it’s now a unique, Catholic term for the Holy Spirit. It won’t be confused with the ‘Spirit’ that pentecostalists seem to have on tap.

 

[Lormar]

I think you will find that many of us do the same. I am in that boat myself. He also has a knack for correcting when it’s necessary, bringing brevity when it helps, etc. Not only is he a wealth of information, but I appreciate his style, even when it’s corrective.

He also had (has) what might be the longest lasting birthday thread I have ever seen on a board.

We’ll just keep the birthday thread going. Before we know it, it will be his birthday again.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

Well, the term ‘Holy Ghost’ has one value for me: it’s now a unique, Catholic term for the Holy Spirit. It won’t be confused with the ‘Spirit’ that pentecostalists seem to have on tap.

Mormons use Holy Ghost and not Holy Spirit (though they do talk about the Spirit of God).

ETA: The book that the SSPX chapel nearest me uses for Holy Hour on First Fridays is from 1947 and uses Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost. Every now and then I can hear someone say “ghost” instead of “spirit” but 99% of the people (including the priest) just say what’s in the book: Holy Spirit.

• PAX