SSPX Update - Redux

[choliks]

Ah sure here’s the link:
sspx.org/superior_generals_news/controversy_around_bishop_fellays_conference_1-18-2013.htm
Here are two extracts, otherwise unedited:num: In other words, this was not a critical issue between the SSPX and the Commission from the Vatican.
As a contribution to this debate, here is Bp Fellay’s commentary, from November 2012:
sspx.org/sspx_and_rome/bishop_fellay_econe_sermon_11-9-2012.htm

My question is this: if the Jewish leaders wished to uphold a Church document, why would they be considered enemies of the Church? It doesn’t make any real sense.

 

[Dee_S]

My question is this: if the Jewish leaders wished to uphold a Church document, why would they be considered enemies of the Church? It doesn’t make any real sense.

I like your logic, yes it does not make sense. Nor do the excuses given by Bishop Fellay and the SSPX …

*16 Jan 2013 * – By Catholic News Service
WASHINGTON (CNS) — The chairman of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs agreed with the Vatican spokesman that derogatory comments about Jews by the head of the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X were “unacceptable” in a letter to members of the U.S.C.C.B. Catholic-Jewish dialogues.

“The society’s U.S. district published a press release on its website on 5 January saying Bishop Fellay’s characterization of “enemies” was “a religious concept and refers to any group or religious sect which opposes the mission of the Catholic Church and her efforts to fulfill it: the salvation of souls.”

“By referring to the Jews, Bishop Fellay’s comment was aimed at the leaders of Jewish organizations, and not the Jewish people,” the statements aid, adding that any accusations of the society being anti-Semitic were false and an example of “hate speech made in an attempt to silence its message.”
cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID=2023&pagetypeID=8&sitecode=HQ&pageno=1

Also, can anyone tell me how the above makes sense “aimed at the leaders…” and his point is what, exactly?

In the link quoted to the SSPX article (The Controversy around Bishop Fellays Conference), it is noticeable that Bishop Fellay does not even hint at the other objectionable things that he said in connection with the Jews and Vatican II:tsktsk:

"In an audio recording posted on YouTube Dec. 30, the head of the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X called the Jewish people “enemies of the church,” saying Jewish leaders’ support of the Second Vatican Council "shows that Vatican II is their thing, not the church’s."

"Bishop Fellay said Pope Benedict wrote to him, emphasizing that full recognition required the society accept the magisterium as the judge of what is tradition, accept the council as an integral part of tradition and accept that the modern Mass is valid and licit."

"Bishop Fellay said, “Even in the council there are some things we accept,” as well as reject, however, the group wishes to be free to say, “there are errors in the council” and that "the new Mass is evil."

“The group will not accept reconciliation if it means no longer being able to make such pronouncements, he said.”
ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/vatican-reaffirms-dialogue-jews-after-sspx-denouncement

The ‘Conference’ given by Bishop Fellay was within weeks of Cardinal Muller publicly stating that:

MULLER-CONTINUITY Nov-29-2012 (400 words) xxxi
Reading** Vatican II as break with tradition is heresy, prefect says**
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Traditionalist and progressive camps that see the Second Vatican Council as breaking with the truth both espouse a “heretical interpretation” of the council and its aims, said the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

What Pope Benedict XVI has termed “the hermeneutic of reform, of renewal in continuity” is the “only possible interpretation according to the principles of Catholic theology,” Archbishop Gerhard Muller said in remarks published Nov. 29.

**“Outside this sole orthodox interpretation unfortunately exists a heretical interpretation, that is, a hermeneutic of rupture, (found) both on the progressive front and on the traditionalist” **side, the archbishop said.http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1205009.htm

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1205009.htm
Makes one wonder

 

[Aramis]

What Pope Benedict XVI has termed “the hermeneutic of reform, of renewal in continuity” is the “only possible interpretation according to the principles of Catholic theology,” Archbishop Gerhard Muller said in remarks published Nov. 29.

**“Outside this sole orthodox interpretation unfortunately exists a heretical interpretation, that is, a hermeneutic of rupture, (found) both on the progressive front and on the traditionalist” **side, the archbishop said.http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1205009.htm

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1205009.htm
Makes one wonder

Keep in mind - some of the traditionalist end of the continuum have gone out of any visible communion. The SSPV, SSJK, and others…Convinced that Rome has ruptured from what it should, sedevaticanists believe te papacy is vacant. Or worse, they elect their own antipopes.

The SSPX are not the far end of the spectrum, but actually almost moderates.

 

[Melchior_1]

Interesting how some folks lament how few things are called heresies these days, yet when when they get told that to not accept Vatican II is a heresy they get upset.

 

[curlycool89]

Interesting how some folks lament how few things are called heresies these days, yet when when they get told that to not accept Vatican II is a heresy they get upset.

Interesting maybe, but not really that surprising. As long as there are people, they will make exemptions for themselves because they feel they are “special” or “know better”. All it is is people rationalizing their own faults away because it is their pet issue.

Only a full and humble submission* to Christ and His Church will cure them. And I’m not pointing to any particular group, because this has likely been the case for many of us even.

*I use submission deliberately here with all the connotation it seems to imply. I don’t think that mere assent may be enough for some people because they will want to get pulled back into their old rationalizing ways. Submission is hard, but nobody said that being a follower of Christ would be easy or that you don’t have to come away changed.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I came across this page and I’m not understanding why the superior would feel that it is necessary to make this public statement.

sspxasia.com/Documents/SiSiNoNo/1998_November/Meet_the_Sedevacantist_Priests.htm

Oh my, here’s a quote:

In 1981, he was dubiously consecrated “bishop” …

So apparently what is sauce for the goose is NOT sauce for the gander.

 

[JReducation]

But I’m still not sure why it’s necessary for a major superior to make this a public statement. OK, I’m a major superior… Do you think that my brothers know anything about the SSPX other than what they need to know?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Do you think that the people whom I serve know anything?

NOOOOOOOOOOOO

Why not?

Because it serves no purpose other than to point the finger at someone or some group that does not affect our religious life or our ministry.

I’m assuming that every superior thinks as I do. “I share with my brothers and the people whom we serve that which will enhance their growth or that which will threaten their growth. Anything else is not necessary. They can find out about it on their own. I’m a superior, not the town cryer.”

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Interesting maybe, but not really that surprising. As long as there are people, they will make exemptions for themselves because they feel they are “special” or “know better”. All it is is people rationalizing their own faults away because it is their pet issue.

Only a full and humble submission* to Christ and His Church will cure them. And I’m not pointing to any particular group, because this has likely been the case for many of us even.

*I use submission deliberately here with all the connotation it seems to imply. I don’t think that mere assent may be enough for some people because they will want to get pulled back into their old rationalizing ways. Submission is hard, but nobody said that being a follower of Christ would be easy or that you don’t have to come away changed.

This is really it, for both sides of the various issues. In the US that covers political issues that some would like to pretend that the Vatican or the Bishops never talk about as well.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I’m assuming that every superior thinks as I do. “I share with my brothers and the people whom we serve that which will enhance their growth or that which will threaten their growth. Anything else is not necessary. They can find out about it on their own. I’m a superior, not the town cryer.”

There’s a Franciscan Friar/Priest who has a very popular Twitter account and blog. Last year, he was sent to Italy for some reason. While recounting his adventures he Tweeted he made a hit with the Italian brothers teaching them to make watermelon shooters.

I asked what he thought Saint Francis’ opinion was of that and Unfollowed him. A lot of his Tweets were like that.

What’s going on with the SSPX, which we have these two threads on now, isn’t isolated. Going to the people with the issues, spinning through the media, it’s all over. I see no reason for you to assume any of these guys think as you do. The SSPX is just the most obvious example of what pulls the Church apart. Everybody’s doing it.

 

[Lormar]

Brother Jay, i do not mean to disrupt this thread, but I looked into the two books you recommended on St. Francis and both are cost prohibited since our funds are beyond limited. One book is more expensive than the other. If you know any wealthy benefactors who would like to donate those books to a worthy cause (me of course! ), please let me know.

 

[Lormar]

:hug3:true, it would be nice if they did,
but it’s great that we have each other…:harp:

 

[Lormar]

There is wonderful example that involves Bonaventure and Aquinas. As many people know, these two wee working on the Summa at the University of Paris. A conflict broke out. The local diocesan priests in the Diocese of Paris did not want the friars there. They leveled all kinds of accusations against them, including calling them heretics. The bishop of Parish asked them to leave. Please keep in mind that this was before the Council of Trent. Today this would never be allowed. No bishop can ask a religious order to leave his diocese. In those days they could do so.

The beauty of it is that the Dominican and Franciscan superiors told their men to thank the bishop for his kindness to them and to thank him for the brief period that he had allowed them to stay and then pick up and leave. They left, even though the accusations against them were false and unjust.

Bonaventure and Aquinas went to Rome. They took their case up with the pope. The friars were exonerated and allowed to return to Parish. Bonaventure himself did not return, but went to Assisi to become superior general. But the other Franciscans did return, as did Aquinas and the Dominicans. Aquinas finished the Summa on his own.

The example here is how these men were willing to sacrifice everything they had built up out of obedience, even if it was to an unfriendly bishop. They had built up the philosophy and theology faculty at the University of Parish. Had it not been for the Franciscan and Dominican scholars, we would not have a University of Paris today.

The friendship between these two saints, Thomas and Bonaventure, is the most touching that I have read about the friendship between any two saints. When I read about it, it never fails to touch me so very deeply. And this reminds me of something I read last night in a book regarding obedience:

The spirit of evil finds that he has excited, in this heart, a love of independence; and that, if he can but persuade her that she will not suffer from her disobedience, she is his victim.

 

[JReducation]

There’s a Franciscan Friar/Priest who has a very popular Twitter account and blog. Last year, he was sent to Italy for some reason. While recounting his adventures he Tweeted he made a hit with the Italian brothers teaching them to make watermelon shooters.

What’s a watermellon shooter?

What’s going on with the SSPX, which we have these two threads on now, isn’t isolated. Going to the people with the issues, spinning through the media, it’s all over. I see no reason for you to assume any of these guys think as you do. The SSPX is just the most obvious example of what pulls the Church apart. Everybody’s doing it.

I was speaking specifically of superiors. I have not seen any other Catholic major superior do this kind of thing.

I know it’s all over the media and the internet. That’s why I said that if the brothers are interested, they can find it all via other sources. The superior is not the town cryer. His job is to communicate with those whom he leads that which will be necessary for them to hear.

Brother Jay, i do not mean to disrupt this thread, but I looked into the two books you recommended on St. Francis and both are cost prohibited since our funds are beyond limited. One book is more expensive than the other. If you know any wealthy benefactors who would like to donate those books to a worthy cause (me of course! ), please let me know.

Let’s pray about it. God has plenty of money.

 

[Lormar]

Let’s pray about it. God has plenty of money.

That’s what Mother Teresa said too!

 

[Lormar]

You are casting unjust and sacrilegious aspersions on Catholic Bishops very lightly - perhaps you don’t realise it yet, but this is a mentality imbibed when in the SSPX and other ‘traditional’ organizations. They constantly, covertly & overtly, criticize and denigrate the Holy Father and his Bishops throughout the world - arrogating to themselves this unholy right by using abuses and novelties in the Church as a justification. Take care, this is dangerous ground.

Dee, you are so very right, and it is this mentality that I have picked up and have yet to be able to rid myself. It will take a powerful grace to change my tendency to do this. In fact, I find myself doing it without even thinking about it. It is an immediate reaction.

 

[Melchior_1]

What’s a watermellon shooter?

An alcoholic beverage.

Let’s pray about it. God has plenty of money.

Crazy stuff, these prayer requests. Never know when someone’s prayers are going to be answered.

 

[Julia_Mae]

What’s a watermellon shooter?

There are a variety of recipes, but in this case, you get a hypodermic needle, inject a small watermelon with vodka, let it sit in the fridge and then melon ball it out. You can also take the flesh and muddle it in a shotglass and add vodka and mix, then swallow in one gulp. I didn’t even know they had watermelon in Italy, I guess I thought it was an American fruit.

I was speaking specifically of superiors. I have not seen any other Catholic major superior do this kind of thing.

I know it’s all over the media and the internet. That’s why I said that if the brothers are interested, they can find it all via other sources. The superior is not the town cryer. His job is to communicate with those whom he leads that which will be necessary for them to hear.

I completely agree with you. I was commenting on you saying you didn’t understand why another wouldn’t be like yourself. I was pointing out that possibly you could be a wee bit out of touch. Or maybe that if anyone should be Tweeting, you should.

 

[TimothyH]

An alcoholic beverage.

Crazy stuff, these prayer requests. Never know when someone’s prayers are going to be answered.

God answers every prayer.

Mostly with me, his answers are “No” or “Not right now” or “You will hurt yourself if I grant you that”.

-Tim-

 

[Lormar]

Crazy stuff, these prayer requests. Never know when someone’s prayers are going to be answered.

I’ll say! :yup:

:clapping:

 

[oldcatholicguy]

An alcoholic beverage.

Really? I thought it was just an upscaled version of a potatoe shooter (pvc pipe, can of hair spray, lighter). But I am from the south and we do tend to find crazy ways of enjoying ourselves with stuff that goes “boom” or that can make things go “splat.”