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Julia_Mae
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Especially because when Sr Lucy was alive, she confirmed it was done to Mary’s satisfaction and she’s the only one who would know. So, not only repudiating the Pope, but also the visionary and, since they seem to believe the apparition to be genuine, the Blessed Mother. :tsktsk:
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Lormar
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What excellent posts here! How I wish I could get some of my friends to read these with an open heart instead of a knee-jerk reaction.
Dee and Gloria summed it up so very well. It is true that there are a few Protestant converts in the SSPX. The majority now are those who have been raised in the SSPX. Years ago it wasn’t like that as all of the people were those who had lived through the aftermath of the Second Vatican Council.
Now that Bishop Williamson has left, things have taken an ominous turn. Several priests have either left on their own or were asked to leave. There is talk of creating another bishop. The laity in the SSPX are battling (That is nothing new as they have been battling ever since I have known them and I often think that they just like to fight. It doesn’t matter about what, as long as they are arguing about something.).
As for the percentage of who would return, I think that it would be low. Most of the laity that I know think that they are the only true Catholics left and that they are saving both the Church and the faith by preserving it until Rome comes to its senses.
I often wonder to myself how I escaped it and think that someone, either in this world or the next, must be praying very hard for me.
Dee and Gloria summed it up so very well. It is true that there are a few Protestant converts in the SSPX. The majority now are those who have been raised in the SSPX. Years ago it wasn’t like that as all of the people were those who had lived through the aftermath of the Second Vatican Council.
Now that Bishop Williamson has left, things have taken an ominous turn. Several priests have either left on their own or were asked to leave. There is talk of creating another bishop. The laity in the SSPX are battling (That is nothing new as they have been battling ever since I have known them and I often think that they just like to fight. It doesn’t matter about what, as long as they are arguing about something.).
As for the percentage of who would return, I think that it would be low. Most of the laity that I know think that they are the only true Catholics left and that they are saving both the Church and the faith by preserving it until Rome comes to its senses.
I often wonder to myself how I escaped it and think that someone, either in this world or the next, must be praying very hard for me.
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Dee_S
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Lormar
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Only when I die will I know how much I owe to Her and Her intercession!
Thanks for the beautiful picture, Dee!
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Dee_S
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You’re quite right. I had forgotten how this was such an issue among trads. I didn’t buy into it though, as the folk who promoted it were generally the excitable type - who read and supported Fr Nicholas Gruner and his booklet Fatima Crusader (now that’s the most unsubstantiated piece of libel in circulation. e.g. An oft repeated theme was that there were black masses and worse taking place in the Vatican & other drivel along those lines, thanks to the modernists, masons etc having infiltrated to destroy the Church, these claims being made according to them, by high ranking prelates who could not afford to be named). I don’t recall knowing of his suspension or his conflict with Rome at the time, and only recently read this:
Mrs Sally, perhaps we need something stronger than watermelon shooters
…"VATICAN, Sep 12, 01 (CWNews.com) - The Vatican Congregation for the Clergy has published a reminder that Father Nicholas Gruner, the self-styled leader of the International Fatima Rosary Crusade, has been suspended from priestly ministry and does not have ecclesiastical approval of his activities.
Father Gruner has been in conflict with Church authorities for over 20 years because of his insistence that the Fatima message has gone unheeded. He has rejected the assurances of both Pope John Paul II and Sister Lucia, the surviving Fatima seer, that the directive of the Virgin Mary has been fulfilled, and Russia has been consecrated to her Immaculate Heart."
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3793
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Aramis
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The SSPX was chartered as an institute for clerics major - technically not just priests. It has always counted its subdeacons and deacons as members of the society.
They have, however, decided to strongly expand their “membership” since their loss of recognition by the magisterium. They have added illicit orders of oblates and sisters. They have added a lay-association under their organizational auspices as a third order of the society itself, and they have added a third order purporting to be Franciscans which is directly part of the SSPX umbrella.
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Julia_Mae
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A lot of people don’t know this, and I thought it was just internet hoaxiness until I looked it up, but the day JPII consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the bulk of the Soviet nuclear submarine fleet which was docked, exploded. At least, there was a massive explosion and the boats were destroyed and their at sea nuclear capability was pretty much ended.
Srsly, not sure how they ignore that!
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Julia_Mae
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My convertism is showing: what’s a subdeacon?
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Dee_S
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It is unfair Brother - but it is oh so convenient for those who use ‘conspiracy’ as a marketing tool. Lumping together all the so-called “enemies of the Church” and inventing scenarious that are probable, and in the case of Fr Gruner, not at all probable, is like killing two birds with one stone… well here they are getting three for the price of one.
I’m not sure how many of the SSPX lay people actually believed this conspiracy junk, but as GloriaMaria said earlier, it was best to keep quiet sometimes or risk being under verbal attack or censure, for not being faithful to the cause, by questioning those who were fighting the big fight elsewhere, who needed our support etc…
Just in case anyone is wondering how on earth anyone can stand being in such a hot house…
…these are just glimpses of ‘extras’ that were of small consequence compared to the love of the Mass and the spiritual fulfilment that we were actually there for. That these ‘extras’ start building up into a picture that warps all…takes time to fully realise, according to the individual.Well, that’s exactly it. He is trying to revive reverence, dedication and a following for Archbishop Lefebvre - as their true founder and leader. Reading his letter it becomes clear that he realises that this second generation do not have this crucial link which will bind them to the Society. It’s called fighting a rearguard action…they are losing credibility in the press and their faithful are doubting their leadership - their confidence i shaken, especially after Bishop Fellay in their perception, almost betrayed them by bringing them to the brink of capitulation with Rome.
I can believe that there is more talk of Bishop Williamson than ever. He was warning everyone all along, on Youtube and wherever he could, not to trust “Fellay and his gang” and was calling urgently for Fellay’s resignation. Remember the letter of the three bishops to Bishop Fellay? I’m not surprised that they are letter him travel the globe giving speeches to reassure the faithful, after all, it’s his mess to clean up and restore the confidence of the people.
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JReducation
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Dee_S
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None so blind…i took a look at a few sites, very interesting. This extract makes your point…
“In May 1984, a five-day series of explosions at Shtyukozero (8 km NE of Severomorsk) reportedly destroyed up to one-third of the Northern Fleet’s SAM stockpile, as well as other missiles and munitions. This site also housed nuclear missiles at the time of the fire. Luckily, the fire was extinguished before it spread to the nuclear missile storage areas.” :ehh:
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Melchior_1
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“purporting” is a very, very very accurate term.
There’s a group of Franciscans who have officially aligned themselves with the SSPX. Brother can correct me on this, but I believe they have excommunicated themselves for violating the Rule. If any of those of the SSPX “Third Order of Francis” were already members and they joined the SSXP, I think they might have excommunicated themselves too due to violating their promises.
Brother, there’s a question for you; what happens if either the SSPX-alligned first order Franciscans or the SSPX third order Franciscans have new members come in and take vows/promises? Are the vows/promises valid? Are they auto-excommunicated for breaking the Rule and their Vows/Promises?
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Dee_S
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some BIG questions there Melchior
quite a plate of spaghetti…just popping in on this to let Br JR have this link to a very nice video clip from Rome Reports (i subscribe to them) on the recent re-election of successor to St Francis. It’s a short but great watch for whoever is interested:romereports.com/palio/franciscan-friars-minor-re-elect-marco-tasca-as-successor-to-st-francis-english-8876.html#.UQgrXPIfzVo
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Melchior_1
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Pretty sure I know the answer, but Brother would know for sure. If I had to guess:
First/Second/Third Order who are already members of their Orders, then leave to join the SSPX: Excommunicated automatically for breaking the vows/promises, and the Rule.
The question if new members of those communities received their consecrations/vows/promises validity, that one I have no idea.
First/Second/Third Order who are already members of their Orders, then leave to join the SSPX: Excommunicated automatically for breaking the vows/promises, and the Rule.
The question if new members of those communities received their consecrations/vows/promises validity, that one I have no idea.
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Dee_S
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I posted this recently on the Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother group and hope no-one minds me posting it here while on the topic of Franciscans
*Among the many exercises of piety practiced in honor of St. Joseph, there is one generally known, namely, that of meditating on his Seven Sorrows and Seven Joys. This devotion owes its origin to a celebrated event, never omitted by any historian of the Saint. *
*Among the many exercises of piety practiced in honor of St. Joseph, there is one generally known, namely, that of meditating on his Seven Sorrows and Seven Joys. This devotion owes its origin to a celebrated event, never omitted by any historian of the Saint. *
- It is as follows:
*http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photo...gU7OnyvAJtU9VAtd2uXXcqw5aiqmTI65C0tTx02Vg.jpg - Two Fathers of the Franciscan order were sailing along the coast of Flanders, when a terrible tempest arose, which sank the vessel, with its three hundred passengers. The two Fathers had sufficient presence of mind to seize hold of a plank, upon which they were tossed to and fro upon the waves, for three days and nights. In their danger and affliction, their whole recourse was to St. Joseph, begging his assistance in their sad condition. The Saint, thus invoked, appeared in the habit of a young man of beautiful features, encouraged them to confide in his assistance, and, as their pilot, conducted them into a safe harbor. They, desirous to know who their benefactor was asked his name, that they might gratefully acknowledge so great a blessing and favor. He told them he was St. Joseph, and advised them daily to recite the Our Father and Hail Mary seven times, in memory of his seven dolors or griefs, and of his seven joys, and then disappeared. *
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Godric2
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I didnt know about Joseph’s seven joys and griefs.
What are they - can you point to a website with them?
Thanks
Godric
Twitter Theology?
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Aramis
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Depends a bit. In priestly formation pre-V II, and in the Eastern Churches in union, a man recieves first minor orders, then subdeacon, then deacon (diaconos), then finally presbyter (priest, sacerdos).
The Roman Minor Orders were Lector, Acolyte, Porter and in some times Porter, Exorcist and Cantor were minor orders. Individuals were said to be ordained to these orders, which are ancient but not of biblical origin.
In the Roman Rite, the subdeacon was considered a major order until Vatican II. It was abolished by HH. Paul VI, and Lector and Acolyte ceased being ordained, but are now instituted (ceremony is almost identical, tho’), and not considered to have entered the ranks of the clerks. (IE, they’re still laymen by canon law.) The term Subdeacon may be used for instituted acolytes with the permission of their instituting bishop. (Some only permit it for men holding institution into both the order of Lector and Acolyte)
In the Eastern Rites and their constituent churches, subdeacons are a minor order, and the minor orders are still used, and clerks (those ordained to minor orders) have a separate status from laity under canon law, are incardinated as minor clergy, and subject to obedience in the same way as secular clergy, tho’ to a lesser extent.
Deacons, priests, and bishops are all major orders. Major orders are of biblical origin. Bishops are of Apostolic origin, and noted in Acts and the letters of Paul. Presbyters are mentioned often in the Pauline letters. Deacons were noted in Acts as to their creation by the apostles.
Deaconesses are no longer ordained, and their status is of much debate.
The Subdeacon performs several specific tasks in the high mass - chanting the epistle, holding the book of the gospels when the deacon chants the gospel, performing the lavabo (washing the priest’s hands), and serving as a regular extraordinary minister of communion, carrying the sacred vessels to the deacon, and a few other odd bits. All of the subdeacon’s tasks in the Roman liturgy may now be performed by instituted acolytes.
Note that the SSPX still ordain subdeacons separately from acolytes, and still ordain acolytes.
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Julia_Mae
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I thought “Hebrew Catholic” held a clue, as you really cannot be a “Protestant Catholic.” Also, I bet the Jewish church doesn’t demonize the Catholic Church practically every Sunday - wait - Saturday - from the pulpit.
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Julia_Mae
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Thank you, this is very informative. Do you know at what point in history Deaconesses were ordained and for what duty? Also, did the SSPX originally get a special dispensation to keep ordaining in the ways that had been changed?
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