SSPX Update - Redux

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Thank you, this is very informative. Do you know at what point in history Deaconesses were ordained and for what duty? Also, did the SSPX originally get a special dispensation to keep ordaining in the ways that had been changed?
Here is a thread on the subject which contains some good info on the traditional utilization of deaconesses.forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=705242

Here is a good article on the subject. ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/AROSEBY.TXT

In addition, from the documents of the Council of Nicea, we can see that deaconesses did not receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders. They did provide important functions in the early Church, I am not discounting that, but there is a good deal of misunderstanding on this topic.
CONCILIUM NICAENUM I
CANON XIX.
CONCERNING the Paulianists who have flown for refuge to the Catholic Church, it has been decreed that they must by all means be rebaptized; and if any of them who in past time have been numbered among their clergy should be found blameless and without reproach, let them be rebaptized and ordained by the Bishop of the Catholic Church; but if the examination should discover them to be unfit, they ought to be deposed. Likewise in the case of their deaconesses, and generally in the case of those who have been enrolled among their clergy, let the same form be observed. And we mean by deaconesses such as have assumed the habit, but who, since they have no imposition of hands, are to be numbered only among the laity.
I hope that is helpful.

Peace,
 
Here is a thread on the subject which contains some good info on the traditional utilization of deaconesses.forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=705242
An interesting thread. Not to take us off-topic, but for the information of those who hadn’t heard of this like myself:
According to Dr. Gary Macy, PhD, a Professor of Theology and a historian at Santa Clara University:
  1. Women were ordained as deacons by the bishop within the santurary with the laying on of hands.
  2. St. Paul mentions women deacons. “Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae… help her in whatever she may require from you.” (Romans 16:1-2)
  3. St. Paul in 1 Timothy 3:8-11 speaks about women deacons. **St. John Chrysostom **responded: “Some say that he (Paul) is talking about women in general, but that cannot be… But rather, he is speaking of those women who hold the rank of deacon.”
  4. Dr. Macy makes a destinction between Deacon and the Priesthood. Rome has come out against the ordination of women as PRIESTS. Nothing has come out of Rome against the ordination of women as DEACONS.
  5. According to historical records Popes Benedict VIII (1018), John XIX (1025) and Leo IX (1049) gave bishops the power to ordain women as deacons.
  6. We even have the ritual, in Greek, with the prayers that were said for the ordination of women deacons.
  7. Women were ordained as Deacons, celebrated at the altar with the bishop, hands were laid upon them, anointed with chrism by the bishop, and a stole was placed on their neck. They also read the Gospel and preached.
  8. At the Council of Chalcedon of 451 required women deacons to be forty years of age and celibate. earlychurchtexts.com/public/chalcedon_canons.htm - Check canon 15.
As far as we know, there were women deacons in the Church till the 12th century.
So, did I miss an answer? Did the SSPX get some sort of dispensation to keep ordaining subdeacons and acolytes?
 
So, did I miss an answer? Did the SSPX get some sort of dispensation to keep ordaining subdeacons and acolytes?
I did not address that particular question. I was trying to give you info regarding the ancient office of deaconess. I also suggest going beyond the quote you provided from that thread.

Peace,
 
“purporting” is a very, very very accurate term.

There’s a group of Franciscans who have officially aligned themselves with the SSPX. Brother can correct me on this, but I believe they have excommunicated themselves for violating the Rule. If any of those of the SSPX “Third Order of Francis” were already members and they joined the SSXP, I think they might have excommunicated themselves too due to violating their promises.

Brother, there’s a question for you; what happens if either the SSPX-alligned first order Franciscans or the SSPX third order Franciscans have new members come in and take vows/promises? Are the vows/promises valid? Are they auto-excommunicated for breaking the Rule and their Vows/Promises?
This is very complicated. It is better to separate the individuals. There are those who were professed into one of the Franciscan orders and then aligned themselves with the SSPX. There are those who were never part of the Franciscan family who joined the newly created Franciscan Third Order within the SSPX. Correct me if I have my groups all mixed up. After a while, one can’t keep track of who is where.

In Church law, those who belong to an order, any order, owe obedience and allegiance to the superior of that order, its constitutions and its general chapter. They may not belong to two institutes at the same time. The second alliance is not valid, because the first trumps it. That’s pretty clear.

Where it becomes very complicated is when you try to define the degree of alignment. In this case, the question would be, do these Franciscans simply sympathize and support the SSPX or do they submit to SSPX authority. Those are two degrees of alignment. The second is not allowed. You can’t be Franciscan and look to Bishop Fellay for direction. You don’t even do that with the diocesan bishop, except in pastoral matters that concern him. Otherwise you have two heads.

Things become more complicated when you’re told to break off the relationship and you refuse to do so. At that point you are violating the vow of obedience. This is serious. This is not like the superior asking your to wash the care and you refusing to do so. This is the superior asking you to place your allegiance back where it belongs.

At that point, the superior has to issue several warnings and make attempts to help you get your head on straight, etc. Once he does and you fail to respond, you’re really AWOL. If you’re a priest, your faculties are suspended. Then begins the process of dismissal from the order. The process can include excommunication as well. It all depends on how the superior charges you. Superiors try to protect people by working on separating them from their communities while keeping them inside the Church. At the end of the day, it’s the Holy See’s decision to make.

As to those who were never part of the Franciscan family, but joined those Franciscan groups created by the SSPX, I have no idea how Rome will deal with that. The Franciscans have no jurisdiction over them. They haven’t violated any laws within the Franciscans, because they were not Franciscan when they become involved with the SSPX.

It will be interesting to see what happens if there is a reconciliation. At this point, I would assume that they are not validly professed, because the SSPX has no canonical place in the Church and it does not seem as if they have permission to receive vows. I could be wrong on the latter. A canon lawyer would know more than I would on that score.
I thought “Hebrew Catholic” held a clue, as you really cannot be a “Protestant Catholic.” Also, I bet the Jewish church doesn’t demonize the Catholic Church practically every Sunday - wait - Saturday - from the pulpit.
You lost me. Help!!!
 
Does anyone know the answer to this question?
Someone said that the traditionalist institutes could continue to use the steps as was the case in the past, but it was interesting, because the letter only recognized as clergy the deacon, priest and bishop. The rest remain laymen as the code of 1983 says. I want to say that it was something that Archbishop DiNoia said, but I’m not sure.

This would make sense, since you can’t grant permission to do something contrary to the code of law. It makes sense to dispense someone from some rule. It does not make sense to create something that the law does not acknowledge. The law no longer acknowledges subdeacons as clergy, nor does it acknowledge the reception of minor orders as ordinations.

Do they have permission to confer minor orders? You need canonical jurisdiction to do so. They don’t have canonical jurisdiction. It seems that it would be ilicit.
 
I thought “Hebrew Catholic” held a clue, as you really cannot be a “Protestant Catholic.”
To be a Jew goes beyond the faith. It’s a culture, a nation. As a result, we have Hebrew Catholics.
 
This is very complicated. It is better to separate the individuals. There are those who were professed into one of the Franciscan orders and then aligned themselves with the SSPX. There are those who were never part of the Franciscan family who joined the newly created Franciscan Third Order within the SSPX. Correct me if I have my groups all mixed up. After a while, one can’t keep track of who is where.
I think that sums it up.
In Church law, those who belong to an order, any order, owe obedience and allegiance to the superior of that order, its constitutions and its general chapter. They may not belong to two institutes at the same time. The second alliance is not valid, because the first trumps it. That’s pretty clear.
Also sums it up.
Where it becomes very complicated is when you try to define the degree of alignment. In this case, the question would be, do these Franciscans simply sympathize and support the SSPX or do they submit to SSPX authority. Those are two degrees of alignment. The second is not allowed. You can’t be Franciscan and look to Bishop Fellay for direction. You don’t even do that with the diocesan bishop, except in pastoral matters that concern him. Otherwise you have two heads.
This is where I was thinking that they are breaking from the Rule, resulting in the excommunication portion. From the sounds of it though, excommunication for breaking the Rule is not automatic?
Things become more complicated when you’re told to break off the relationship and you refuse to do so. At that point you are violating the vow of obedience. This is serious. This is not like the superior asking your to wash the care and you refusing to do so. This is the superior asking you to place your allegiance back where it belongs.

At that point, the superior has to issue several warnings and make attempts to help you get your head on straight, etc. Once he does and you fail to respond, you’re really AWOL. If you’re a priest, your faculties are suspended. Then begins the process of dismissal from the order. The process can include excommunication as well. It all depends on how the superior charges you. Superiors try to protect people by working on separating them from their communities while keeping them inside the Church. At the end of the day, it’s the Holy See’s decision to make.
I see, so the excommunication isn’t automatic when breaking the Rule. Good to know!
As to those who were never part of the Franciscan family, but joined those Franciscan groups created by the SSPX, I have no idea how Rome will deal with that. The Franciscans have no jurisdiction over them. They haven’t violated any laws within the Franciscans, because they were not Franciscan when they become involved with the SSPX.
It will be interesting to see what happens if there is a reconciliation. At this point, I would assume that they are not validly professed, because the SSPX has no canonical place in the Church and it does not seem as if they have permission to receive vows. I could be wrong on the latter. A canon lawyer would know more than I would on that score.

I’m thinking you’re right on this one.
 
You lost me. Help!!!
You said this:
I was coming at this from another angle. I know that many converts are very hostile toward their roots, which baffles the heck out of Hebrew Catholics. We’re very connected to our Jewish roots and we have even started a pontifical association for Hebrew Catholics that allows us to be Catholic and remain active in the Hebrew community.
I was trying (not very successfully) to explain why many converts are hostile to Protestant roots. It’s because they were lied to. Not once, but over and over. It’s hard to go to the huge stadiums of televangelist semi-Pentecostal or Evangelical churches, without hearing almost every single Sunday an attack on the Catholic Church worked into the Pastor’s remarks. If you watch the broadcast on TV, you don’t hear those parts. (They also cut out the half-hour harangue to guilt everyone into giving as they pass the baskets.)

When people come from these backgrounds and find the Truth as well as the facts, they get pretty angry at having been purposely misled, not only about the Church, but about what Jesus taught. (“God wants you to be rich!”) I came from the United Church of Christ and while my Pastor once told me I shouldn’t be wearing a pendant that was the head of Christ Crucified because it was “Catholic and He’s not hanging up there, anymore” I never heard a word against the Church otherwise.

I’m also pretty sure that Jewish folks aren’t going to Temple and listening to weekly attacks on the Church by their Rabbis. I’ve always believed that Catholics have much more in common with Jews than with Protestants. Besides, Jewish is an ancient culture as much as a religion. You don’t just walk away from that kind of connection. So these are the reasons some converts resent their Protestant churches, which is a pretty foreign idea to a Jewish convert.

I think we will see the same kind of backlash against the SSPX as more Catholics come home to fidelity to the Pope.
 
Someone said that the traditionalist institutes could continue to use the steps as was the case in the past, but it was interesting, because the letter only recognized as clergy the deacon, priest and bishop. The rest remain laymen as the code of 1983 says. I want to say that it was something that Archbishop DiNoia said, but I’m not sure.

This would make sense, since you can’t grant permission to do something contrary to the code of law. It makes sense to dispense someone from some rule. It does not make sense to create something that the law does not acknowledge. The law no longer acknowledges subdeacons as clergy, nor does it acknowledge the reception of minor orders as ordinations.

Do they have permission to confer minor orders? You need canonical jurisdiction to do so. They don’t have canonical jurisdiction. It seems that it would be ilicit.
I see. So what you are saying is they can have a subdeacon, but he will be a lay person with the name and possibly duties associated with that, but without ordination.

Look, can this group theoretically become another sui juris church Church in union with Rome or is this not possible because they technically don’t have Apostolic succession, anymore?
 
I think that sums it up.

Also sums it up.

This is where I was thinking that they are breaking from the Rule, resulting in the excommunication portion. From the sounds of it though, excommunication for breaking the Rule is not automatic?

I see, so the excommunication isn’t automatic when breaking the Rule. Good to know!

It will be interesting to see what happens if there is a reconciliation. At this point, I would assume that they are not validly professed, because the SSPX has no canonical place in the Church and it does not seem as if they have permission to receive vows. I could be wrong on the latter. A canon lawyer would know more than I would on that score.
I’m thinking you’re right on this one.
You said this:

I was trying (not very successfully) to explain why many converts are hostile to Protestant roots. It’s because they were lied to. Not once, but over and over. It’s hard to go to the huge stadiums of televangelist semi-Pentecostal or Evangelical churches, without hearing almost every single Sunday an attack on the Catholic Church worked into the Pastor’s remarks. If you watch the broadcast on TV, you don’t hear those parts. (They also cut out the half-hour harangue to guilt everyone into giving as they pass the baskets.)

When people come from these backgrounds and find the Truth as well as the facts, they get pretty angry at having been purposely misled, not only about the Church, but about what Jesus taught. (“God wants you to be rich!”) I came from the United Church of Christ and while my Pastor once told me I shouldn’t be wearing a pendant that was the head of Christ Crucified because it was “Catholic and He’s not hanging up there, anymore” I never heard a word against the Church otherwise.

I’m also pretty sure that Jewish folks aren’t going to Temple and listening to weekly attacks on the Church by their Rabbis. I’ve always believed that Catholics have much more in common with Jews than with Protestants. Besides, Jewish is an ancient culture as much as a religion. You don’t just walk away from that kind of connection. So these are the reasons some converts resent their Protestant churches, which is a pretty foreign idea to a Jewish convert.

I think we will see the same kind of backlash against the SSPX as more Catholics come home to fidelity to the Pope.
This actually makes sense. You’re the first person who ever explained this in a manner that I understood. I have only been in a Protestant church, maybe twice in my life. I believe. Both times it was for funerals. Nothing anti-Catholic happens at funerals.

The few Protestants whom I have known were awesome people. Three of my nice Protestant acquaintances worked for the Catholic Church in a Catholic school. They were the most dignified and polite people I know. They were Baptists. I don’t know what kind. What kind of Baptist would you be if you’re black in Washington, DC? Would those be Southern Baptists? I know that there are different groups.

As for the Jews, I have never heard a rabbi preach anything that is anti-Christian. I have heard Jews gripe and complain about Christians in political settings. But in politics, who does not complain about whom?

If you hear a rabbi say something that you may consider anti-Christian it’s not a condemnation of Christianity or Christians, it’s a faith position. For example, rabbis would be very forceful on the oneness of God, which of course rules out the Trinity. That issue is actually quite understandable. There is nothing in Judaism that points to the Trinity. Unless you read the NT, the shadows of the Trinity in the OT go by completely unnoticed.

You can find old speeches and writing by Jews against Catholics, but they were really political not religious. They were written at a time in history when the distance between Jews and Catholics was greater than the chasm of the Grand Canyon. In other words, they were times of conflict between the two people. Neither side was being very nice to the other.

You may get a rise out of an Orthodox Jew if a child decides to marry a Catholic. You would think that the child just announced that he had small pox. This is more common in the over 60 generation. I’m not too close to Orthodox Jews. However, because they are such a minority, my feeling has always been that they are afraid of extinction. The idea of marrying outside of the Jewish faith is very distressing to the older generation.
 
I see. So what you are saying is they can have a subdeacon, but he will be a lay person with the name and possibly duties associated with that, but without ordination.
Their function would be the same as always. It’s their status in the Church that’s different. They’re not clerics. They’re laymen.

Even in the current code, acolytes and lectors are laymen, not lay women. Not every male is a lector. To be one, you must have the ministry conferred on you by an Ordinary or someone delegated by the Ordinary. An Ordinary is a diocesan bishop or a major superior of men who is a priest as well.
Look, can this group theoretically become another sui juris church Church in union with Rome or is this not possible because they technically don’t have Apostolic succession, anymore?
That’s an interesting question. My gut feeling is no. Here’s my logic and we can think this through together.

The Sui Iuris Churches that are in full communion with Rome have always existed. They were not rebel groups that broke off from Rome. Either they were founded by an Apostle or grew naturally out of one of the Apostolic Church, such as the Maronites. They trace their origins to Maroun, but he was in good standing with the See of Rome.

The SSPX has apostolic succession through Archbishop Lefebvre. He was a validly ordained bishop. The bishops whom he ordained are validly so. However, they are not in good standing with the See of Rome and they are part of the See of Rome. The Sui Iuris Churches were never part of the See of Rome. They were always in communion with Rome, but autonomous. They had their own laws, liturgy, art, music, spirituality, theology in some cases, prayers, customs and even their own forms of religious life.

The SSPX, on the other hand, is very Roman Catholic in all of these respects. It’s liturgy, art, music, customs, prayers, spirituality and its forms of religious life. There is nothing that would identify them as different from Roman Catholics except for the fact that unlike other Roman Catholic institutes, this one is suspended. I mean the members are all suspended priests.

There are Sui Iuris Churches that walked along with the rest of the Orthodox Churches. But they were identifiable as autonomous even then. Later they reconciled with Rome and rejoined the Catholic Church, while keeping their identity.

I don’t know how this looks to you, but to me there is not much common ground between the SSPX and the Sui Iuris Churches. The Sui Iuris Churches were never Roman Catholic to begin with.
 
The few Protestants whom I have known were awesome people. Three of my nice Protestant acquaintances worked for the Catholic Church in a Catholic school. They were the most dignified and polite people I know. They were Baptists. I don’t know what kind. What kind of Baptist would you be if you’re black in Washington, DC? Would those be Southern Baptists? I know that there are different groups.
This is a link to a map of all the Baptist churches in the area: Google map

As you can see there are hundreds and very likely dozens of independent or loosely-knit different Baptist denomination-types. You don’t ever want to try and figure it out, believe me. Older Baptist churches in America often have names like “Saint John’s.” Other Baptists think this is scandalous. All God’s children.

Different Protestant churches have differing degrees of acceptance, rejection - whatever - re: the Church. These very big churches and their concerted Catholic attack are a fairly new phenomenon. One of the people in my RCIA class was an atheist convert from an atheist family. One day her anger at her family just overwhelmed her, (they sounded like lovely people, really) but her anger was about the sinful life she was led into by their bringing her up with false beliefs and discouraging her investigation of faith until she fell in love with a Catholic man.

This whole subject makes me even more concerned about our topic. The divisions we have now between the SSPX and the rest of the Church body might not be healed just because the SSPX comes back into full communion. The resentments and differences amongst the laity can just be very serious for a very long time.
 
This is a link to a map of all the Baptist churches in the area: Google map
I found it. Calvary Baptist Church. But it doesn’t say what kind of Baptist they are. However, they were not rude at all. Just the opposite. They attended mass with us. For the Solemnity of St. Francis, they were present and one of them donated flowers.
This whole subject makes me even more concerned about our topic. The divisions we have now between the SSPX and the rest of the Church body might not be healed just because the SSPX comes back into full communion. The resentments and differences amongst the laity can just be very serious for a very long time.
Imagine the feelings of many bishops. The Society has opened chapels in their dioceses without permission. When called on it, they have responded with antagonism. Wasn’t it last year that there was a big conflict between one of the Philippine bishops and the rector of one of the SSPX chapels? I remember the exchange of letters. The bishop asked them to leave his diocese, because they had entered without permission. The priest came back at him like a marine. The bishop’s letter was actually very firm, but polite. Those wounds are going to take a while to heal.

Then there are the places where the opposite took place. The SSPX went in with a very low profile and the local bishop practically flogged them. That exchange created very hard feelings also. In that case the SSPX was right to be hurt. They were the underdog. How soon can people forget that?

From where I sit, the greatest rift that the SSPX has created has been with the religious orders of men. If it is reconciled, it will probably enter as a society of apostolic life. That puts them right under the jurisdiction of the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. They will have to work with the religious.

They have burned a number of bridges there. I don’t know if this is the priests speaking through the layman or the layman speaking on his own. In either case, the constant comment that one hears is that no one else, but the SSPX has done anything to conserve the faith. That sends some religious superiors right over the edge. Religious communities have paid their dues over the last 50 years, while the SSPX was in its safe bubble. I can see the superiors of the SSPX and the religious superiors not getting a long too well for a long time. Even though all of us know the importance of forgiveness, we tend to forget it when it is most necessary.

Some of these goofy pastors have not made life easy for the traditionalist parishioner either. It just adds to the pot of resentment. I feel like St. Teresa of Avila. We have all betrayed him.
 
That’s an interesting question. My gut feeling is no. Here’s my logic and we can think this through together.

The Sui Iuris Churches that are in full communion with Rome have always existed. They were not rebel groups that broke off from Rome. Either they were founded by an Apostle or grew naturally out of one of the Apostolic Church, such as the Maronites.
Okay. I’m even more ignorant about this than most Catholics, so I’m posting this image as illustrating your point:
So organizationally, we see no church has ever “broken off from” or maybe been “spawned by” the Latin Church of Rome. But, since so many have from the other ancient apostolic churches, perhaps we can posit that it’s possible because there is precedent in the Universal Church.
The SSPX has apostolic succession through Archbishop Lefebvre. He was a validly ordained bishop. The bishops whom he ordained are validly so. However, they are not in good standing with the See of Rome and they are part of the See of Rome. The Sui Iuris Churches were never part of the See of Rome. They were always in communion with Rome, but autonomous. They had their own laws, liturgy, art, music, spirituality, theology in some cases, prayers, customs and even their own forms of religious life.
Okay. So, we can give them Apostolic succession in fact. What does it take to not be part of the See of Rome? Can they just declare themselves separate? Do they have to petition to be released with the intent of becoming a sui iuris church? Even as young as they are, they seem determined to also have their own laws (Canon Law that is not defunct in the RCC), liturgy, all of it. Similar or the same in some cases, but not the norm of the RCC. Different. Derived.
The SSPX, on the other hand, is very Roman Catholic in all of these respects. It’s liturgy, art, music, customs, prayers, spirituality and its forms of religious life. There is nothing that would identify them as different from Roman Catholics except for the fact that unlike other Roman Catholic institutes, this one is suspended. I mean the members are all suspended priests.
There are Sui Iuris Churches that walked along with the rest of the Orthodox Churches. But they were identifiable as autonomous even then. Later they reconciled with Rome and rejoined the Catholic Church, while keeping their identity.
But don’t you think at the beginning, when all those Eastern church first were established separately, they were very similar to those that spawned them? I know that with the extant Sui Iuris churches, we are talking about differences in geography, local culture and custom and language. But wouldn’t that have evolved over time in those places, not started out that way? Just because it was that way historically, doesn’t mean we can’t see this is something very similar, just without the geographic boundaries in a world that has become as small as ours and as connected as ours especially with the advent of the Internet.

These people, the SSPX, not just the clergy, but the laity apparently, are creating their own culture, their own practices, their own theology (somewhat) while maintaining in large part their Latin Rite Catholicism. They are by action if not word declaring independence.

I think what works against this idea the most (to me and I’m no one, of course) is that they are so unstable within their own community. However, maybe unbeknownst to me a lot of these other churches were historically visited by these problems also as they became independent of their mother churches. It probably took more than a century for the other churches to become fully independent. We’re coming up on a half-century for the SSPX. Things move quickly these days. What will they be in another half-century if things drift along as they have been?
I don’t know how this looks to you, but to me there is not much common ground between the SSPX and the Sui Iuris Churches. The Sui Iuris Churches were never Roman Catholic to begin with.
How it looks to me is that to be in communion with Rome, all these churches had to acknowledge the Primacy of Peter in the Papacy. If the SSPX won’t do it now, I see no reason why they would do it in the future. And I think that that, more than anything else, is why they can’t become an independent Catholic Church in union with Rome. I think legally and historically it could be made to happen. But because they are by definition, by their own declarations, not only not in union, but in opposition, it’s impossible.
 
Okay. I’m even more ignorant about this than most Catholics, so I’m posting this image as illustrating your point:

So organizationally, we see no church has ever “broken off from” or maybe been “spawned by” the Latin Church of Rome.
There are several: Old Catholics, Polish National Catholic Church, and the Imani Temple Catholic Church come to mind. I’m sure there are more. They are all sui iuris. But they are not in communion with Rome.
But, since so many have from the other ancient apostolic churches, perhaps we can posit that it’s possible because there is precedent in the Universal Church.
These other outgrowths were not due to schisms or conflicts. They were natural.
Okay. So, we can give them Apostolic succession in fact. What does it take to not be part of the See of Rome?
Schism.

To be reunited as a sui iuris Church, I have no idea what it would take. It’s never been done in the Latin Church.
These people, the SSPX, not just the clergy, but the laity apparently, are creating their own culture, their own practices, their own theology (somewhat) while maintaining in large part their Latin Rite Catholicism. They are by action if not word declaring independence.
It would appear that way. However, they do not deny the authority of the Holy Father. They have said that they accept his authority, but will not comply. Which is complicated to decipher.
How it looks to me is that to be in communion with Rome, all these churches had to acknowledge the Primacy of Peter in the Papacy. If the SSPX won’t do it now, I see no reason why they would do it in the future. And I think that that, more than anything else, is why they can’t become an independent Catholic Church in union with Rome. I think legally and historically it could be made to happen. But because they are by definition, by their own declarations, not only not in union, but in opposition, it’s impossible.
It’s more complex than just acknowledging the primacy. They must also believe what the Catholic Church believes. The Sui Iuris Churches believe what the Latin Church believes. We’re not separated by beliefs. Our theology is different in focus, but not in content.
 
I think it looks like a family tree. Or a species radiation. Is it wrong? I’ve had in my files for a few years now.
Where did the Carmelite and Dominican Rites go? They should be under the Latin Rites. They’re not there.
 
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