SSPX Update - Redux

[simple_soul]

*I have been thinking about this thread a lot the past few days and I am wondering.
Could it be that being sympathetic of the SSPX is actually causing more harm than good. Maybe it is not so much as being sympathetic of them but having a misguided concept of what being sympathetic of them should be. To me when I read or hear of people defending what they believe, how they believe it and why they believe what they are doing is not wrong and try to legally prove it does nothing but add fuel to their cause and encourage them to continue on the coarse they are going.

Something I have noticed over the years is that there are a lot of people who are not a part of the SSPX but go to their Masses. Well, some do and some do not. But they all seem to have this silent camaraderie with the SSPX. It is like I can not belong to you but I agree with you and what you are doing and I support you in your efforts and I hope and pray that Rome will some day understand that you are right and have been right to do what you have done and what you are doing.

These people do not say it in words directly but indirectly this seems to be what they are doing. Either directly or indirectly. Every time I hear or read of an argument that tries to justify what they have done and are doing is what makes me believe this. In so many ways it is this silent camaraderie that I believe is a bigger problem for the Church than the SSPX themselves. They depend on this support from within the Church to keep on doing what they do. In some ways I believe it is like it encourages them and makes them believe what they are doing is right. Like giving them fuel for thier fire or something.

Thinking about all of this is making me think of something some one posted earlier on this thread. They posted that Blessed John Paul II mentioned something about the silent apostasy. It has been making me think of how one could possibly silently apostasies themselves from the Church. What the SSPX is currently going through could not in any way be considered silent. So what would be considered a silent apostasy. Could it be that if the SSPX does not reconcile with Rome that all the silent supporters or comrades they have within the Church will be the ones who silently apostasies from the Church? Will one who supports and defends the SSPX stay within the Church but believe in their heart, mind and soul that the SSPX is the true Church because it is the only church they know of that still holds onto what they understand to be the only truth. If one did become like that would they have silently apostasies themselves from the Church?
Is it even possible for one to still physically belong to the Church and continue receiving the Sacraments but still be apostasies form her and if it is possible can one who is so sympathetic to the cause and reason of what the SSPX espouses cause one to silently apostasies ones self from the Catholic Church that the Pope is head of?
*

 

[Julia_Mae]

The SSPX and allied groups seem to me to be making the correct distinctions. .

What are the allied groups?

 

[Melchior_1]

Is it just me or is it ironic that apparently following the Pope and head of the CDF is apparently the “modernist” thing to do?

 

[Dee_S]

Is it just me or is ironic that apparently following the Pope and head of the CDF is apparently the “modernist” thing to do?

Well, the SSPX (and allies) would not exist if they had not ‘proved’ to their faithful that they were the centre as **numealinesimpet **remarks.

In general those who sympathise or adhere to them are convinced that things either side of their position is faulty to the extreme. That is why they remain in the schizophrenic situation of swearing loyalty to the Holy Father & the Church, while they continue to criticize and refuse obedience to the authority of any living Pope. Hence their excuse of adhering to The Eternal Rome - a myth that has been successfully debunked more than once on these threads.

I think we all know the old spiritual directive that the devil cannot get a good man to do wrong unless he proposes it as a good thing…

*And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. *2 Corinthians 11:14
Douay-Rheims Bible

 

[EphelDuath]

I guess I fall into that “schizophrenic” divide; I am not an affiliate of SSPX in any way, and I will never advocate in any shape or form disobedience or disrespect to the Holy Father.

That being said, I can certainly sympathize with the SSPX members that aren’t antisemites, since they were steadfast in protecting the reverence of the Holy Mass at a time when the faith was practically being desecrated by all of the misinformation that followed Vatican II.

(At least a dozen people in this thread have already said the same thing, so I don’t claim to be introducing anything new; just add me to the headcount.)

 

[pollycarp]

*I have been thinking about this thread a lot the past few days and I am wondering.
Could it be that being sympathetic of the SSPX is actually causing more harm than good. Maybe it is not so much as being sympathetic of them but having a misguided concept of what being sympathetic of them should be. To me when I read or hear of people defending what they believe, how they believe it and why they believe what they are doing is not wrong and try to legally prove it does nothing but add fuel to their cause and encourage them to continue on the coarse they are going.

Something I have noticed over the years is that there are a lot of people who are not a part of the SSPX but go to their Masses. Well, some do and some do not. But they all seem to have this silent camaraderie with the SSPX. It is like I can not belong to you but I agree with you and what you are doing and I support you in your efforts and I hope and pray that Rome will some day understand that you are right and have been right to do

These people do not say it in words directly but indirectly this seems to be what they are doing. Either directly or indirectly. Every time I hear or read of an argument that tries to justify what they have done and are doing is what makes me believe this. In so many ways it is this silent camaraderie that I believe is a bigger problem for the Church than the SSPX themselves. They depend on this support from within the Church to keep on doing what they do. In some ways I believe it is like it encourages them and makes them believe what they are doing is right. Like giving them fuel for thier fire or something.

Thinking about all of this is making me think of something some one posted earlier on this thread. They posted that Blessed John Paul II mentioned something about the silent apostasy. It has been making me think of how one could possibly silently apostasies themselves from the Church. What the SSPX is currently going through could not in any way be considered silent. So what would be considered a silent apostasy. Could it be that if the SSPX does not reconcile with Rome that all the silent supporters or comrades they have within the Church will be the ones who silently apostasies from the Church? Will one who supports and defends the SSPX stay within the Church but believe in their heart, mind and soul that the SSPX is the true Church because it is the only church they know of that still holds onto what they understand to be the only truth. If one did become like that would they have silently apostasies themselves from the Church?
Is it even possible for one to still physically belong to the Church and continue receiving the Sacraments but still be apostasies form her and if it is possible can one who is so sympathetic to the cause and reason of what the SSPX espouses cause one to silently apostasies ones self from the Catholic Church that the Pope is head of?
*

You almost had me thinking for a moment that I was an apostate as a silent SSPX supporter. But on second thought I believe the silent apostates to be the people such as I know who go to Mass every Saturday evening, but begrudge God any more than 30 minutes; who pick and choose what they will accept of Church teaching, whose kids married outside of the Church, if they married at all, and nothing is said, who know little about their faith and not interested enough to find out? My Catholic faith, being under authority of Peter, is much more important to me.

 

[Dee_S]

I guess I fall into that “schizophrenic” divide; I am not an affiliate of SSPX in any way, and I will never advocate in any shape or form disobedience or disrespect to the Holy Father.

You don’t appear to fall into that divide or am I a bit dim today?

“…are convinced that things either side of their position is faulty to the extreme. That is why they remain in the schizophrenic situation of swearing loyalty to the Holy Father & the Church, while they continue to criticize and refuse obedience to the authority of any living Pope”

 

[Dee_S]

That being said, I can certainly sympathize with the SSPX members that aren’t antisemites, since they were steadfast in protecting the reverence of the Holy Mass at a time when the faith was practically being desecrated by all of the misinformation that followed Vatican II.

:tiphat:well said. There was certainly that time, where those who were prepared to stand up for tradition did a great job and a necessary one. But to say that things have gone too far, in fact 25 years too long - would be an understatement.

To isolate the point at which the balance tipped, the real problem started in 1988 - when Archbishop Lefebvre illicitly consecrated the four SSPX bishops - this in direct defiance of the appeals of the Holy Father who was carrying out urgent discussions with him at the time. Protocols had been signed (involving then Cardinal Ratzinger), and all was thought to be well, when suddenly Msg Lefebvre took it into his head that Rome was trying to trick or trap him, (he even proposes that he thought they would try and kidnap him to stop him consecrating his own choice of bishops)and went ahead and did the cosecrations at speed.

The Church reacted as swiftly and Pope John Paul II immediately established Ecclesia Dei and issued an encyclical of the same name -
"The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei is a commission of the Catholic Church established by Pope John Paul II’s motu proprio Ecclesia Dei of 2 July 1988 for the care of those former followers of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre who broke with him as a result of his consecration of four priests of his Society of St. Pius X as bishops on 30 June 1988, an act that the Holy See deemed illicit and schismatic.[1]

It has the additional tasks of trying to return to full communion with the Holy See those traditionalist Catholics who are in a state of separation, of whom the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) is foremost, and of helping to satisfy just aspirations of people unconnected with these groups who want to keep alive the pre-1970 Roman Rite liturgy."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Commission_Ecclesia_Dei

What has occurred from then on…is history. Tragically they are caught in something of a time-warp without realising it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Commission_Ecclesia_Dei

 

[roadsend]

I guess I fall into that “schizophrenic” divide; I am not an affiliate of SSPX in any way, and I will never advocate in any shape or form disobedience or disrespect to the Holy Father.

That being said, I can certainly sympathize with the SSPX members that aren’t antisemites, since they were steadfast in protecting the reverence of the Holy Mass at a time when the faith was practically being desecrated by all of the misinformation that followed Vatican II.

(At least a dozen people in this thread have already said the same thing, so I don’t claim to be introducing anything new; just add me to the headcount.)

Better make it a dozen +1+1, and I would suspect a whole bunch more.

 

[Aramis]

What are the allied groups?

from www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X/Vocations/

Priestly and Religious Communities for Men

• Benedictine Monks (Brazil) - 1 monastery: The Monastery of the Holy Cross
• Benedictine Monks (USA) - 1 monastery
• Dominican Brothers - 1 house: FRIARY OF LA HAYE AUX BONSHOMMES
• Capuchins - 1 monastery (Morgon, France)
• Society of the Transfiguration (Merigny, France)
• The Helpers of Christ the King - Maison St. Joseph (Caussade, France)
• Redemptorist Fathers - Monastery of the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary (Eastchurch, England)

Religious Communities for Women

• Carmelites -
  Carmel de Sacré Coeur (Quiévrain, Belgium) &
  Carmel of the Holy Trinity (WA, U.S.A.)
• Benedictines -
  Monastère Notre-Dame de Toute Confiance(Virlet, France)
  Monastery of the Sacred Heart of Jesus(BRASIL)
  Dominican Teaching Sisters of the Holy Name of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary (Brignolles)
  The foundation of Post Falls, (ID, U.S.A.)
• Dominicans Contemplative Sisters - Monastère Saint-Joseph (Avrillé, France)
• Poor Clares of the Traditional Observance (Morgon, France)
• Franciscan Sisters of the strict observance
  Monastere S. Francis at Le Trevoux (France)
  Monastere N. D. des Fontaines at Morlaix (France)
• Dominicans Teaching Sisters of Brignolles
  Cours Saint Dominique Saint-Pré du Coeur Immaculé (La Celle, France)
• Dominicans Teaching Sisters of Fanjeaux
  Cours Saint Dominique de Cammazou (Fanjeaux, France)
• Dominican Sisters of Wanganui, New Zealand
• Franciscan Teaching Sisters of Christ the King, Kansas City
• The Disciples of the Cenacle (Roma, Italy)
• Transfiguration Sisters - Maison des Soeurs (Mérigny, France)
• Sisters of Le Rafflay (Château-Thébaud, France)
• Precious Blood Sisters (Häusern, Germany)
• Consoling Sisters of the Sacred Heart (Vigne, Italy)
• The Sisters of the Helpers of Christ the King - Maison St. Joseph (Caussade, France)
• The Franciscan Sisters of the Perpetual Help of Mary (Mexico)

Plus their internal subgroups

• Society of St. Pius X (Priestly)
• Society of St. Pius X Brothers
• The Sisters of the SSPX
• The Oblates of the SSPX

And their Eastern “equivalent” group, for whom the SSPX have done ordinations.

• Societatis Sacerdotalis St. Joseph Kuntsepha (SSJK) - (Ukraine)

That’s just the groups EASILY found…

As I’ve said before - the only thing that shows that they are not a schismatic church already is the refusal to claim Ordinary Jurisdiction.

 

[EphelDuath]

I had no idea just how much influence the SSPX had. No wonder the Holy See doesn’t just excommunicate them and be done with the matter.

 

[Dee_S]

I had no idea just how much influence the SSPX had. No wonder the Holy See doesn’t just excommunicate them and be done with the matter.

“Influence” would not be the word I would use. What springs instantly to mind is rampant disobedience. It seems more like they have been busy bees setting up a parallel Church. All they are missing in this structure is a Pope and a few cardinals

 

[numealinesimpet]

The pope is one of those people. Hence, there is, canonically, no state of emergency, and the SSPX are in error.

The argument employed by the SSPX and others is that this would settle the matter if it were a disciplinary or administrative issue, which is created by the Pope. But a State of Emergency is an objective issue, like the noon temperature in a particular district. The Pope may comment on this, but he does not create it. If, to give an example, the road were blocked by heavy snow and a family cannot get to Mass, this situation will not change if the Pope issues a statement “No, it’s all right - you can go”. If a family are unable to avail of Catholic formation for their family via the ‘mainstream’ structures, it is not going against the Church to avail of the emergency provisions provided by the SSPX. This is not meant in any disrespectful way at all: it is the reason why the SSPX & the Religious Orders sympathetic to them continue to operate on the emergency provisions. These provisions do exist, as they must in any system of Law.

 

[choliks]

The argument employed by the SSPX and others is that this would settle the matter if it were a disciplinary or administrative issue, which is created by the Pope. But a State of Emergency is an objective issue, like the noon temperature in a particular district. The Pope may comment on this, but he does not create it. If, to give an example, the road were blocked by heavy snow and a family cannot get to Mass, this situation will not change if the Pope issues a statement “No, it’s all right - you can go”. If a family are unable to avail of Catholic formation for their family via the ‘mainstream’ structures, it is not going against the Church to avail of the emergency provisions provided by the SSPX. This is not meant in any disrespectful way at all: it is the reason why the SSPX & the Religious Orders sympathetic to them continue to operate on the emergency provisions. These provisions do exist, as they must in any system of Law.

But where is the emergency?

 

[JReducation]

I have never gotten the sense that the Vatican believes that the grass is green and fertile everywhere. The Vatican obviously knows that there are problems that need to be addressed.

The key here would be the use of the term “emergency”. In many people’s mind, if there is something being done, albeit however slowly it goes, there is no need for a separate body. On the contrary, such energy and enthusiasm can be put to good use on the inside.

Are there problems? Yes.

Are they being addressed? Yes, albeit more quickly in some places than others, which is always going to be the case.

Is no one in the mainstream doing anything about these problems? There are many people and groups working on them.

Is there an emergency? It’s a matter of dispute. It seems that the term can be defined in different ways by different people. From the perspective of the last five popes, there are problems, but there is not an emergency that justifies a break.

The interesting situation is that the word “emergency” seems to be more vague than we previously thought.

 

[Dee_S]

‘Provisions’ always exist in law, but not the one’s claimed in canon law by the SSPX.

“The SSPX bishops do not claim “ordinary” jurisdiction over the Society’s adherents, which would make the latter subject to them, not to the local diocesan bishops,[21] and would amount to an obvious challenge to the Holy See’s authority act of schism. Instead they say they possess an "extraordinary" jurisdiction.”

“This is of specific importance in Catholic canon law in relation to the sacraments of confession and marriage.”

Their claim of extraordinary jurisdiction is **not **accepted by the Church…

"To absolve sins validly, a priest must be given the faculty to do so,[22] a faculty that, normally, only the local bishop can give.[23] Similarly, in normal circumstances a marriage can be contracted validly only in the presence of the local bishop or the parish priest or of a priest or deacon delegated by one of these."

"To overcome this difficulty, the Society says[25] that absolution and marriage under its auspices are valid, on the grounds of its interpretation of canon 144 §1 of the Code of Canon Law, which states: “In common error, whether of fact or of law, and in positive and probable doubt, whether of law or of fact, the Church supplies executive power of governance for both the external and the internal forum”, and canon 844 §2, which declares that, “whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ’s faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.” "

…and as a result their marriages and confessions are invalid.

"The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei has stated that, in accordance with canon 144 someone who confesses to an SSPX priest while genuinely not knowing that the priest does not have the required faculty will be validly absolved, but that, with this exception, the sacraments of Penance and Matrimony in which SSPX priests are involved are invalid.[26]"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_situation_of_the_Society_of_St._Pius_X

 

[Dee_S]

I have never gotten the sense that the Vatican believes that the grass is green and fertile everywhere. The Vatican obviously knows that there are problems that need to be addressed.

The key here would be the use of the term “emergency”. In many people’s mind, if there is something being done, albeit however slowly it goes, there is no need for a separate body. On the contrary, such energy and enthusiasm can be put to good use on the inside.

Are there problems? Yes.

Are they being addressed? Yes, albeit more quickly in some places than others, which is always going to be the case.

Is no one in the mainstream doing anything about these problems? There are many people and groups working on them.

Is there an emergency? It’s a matter of dispute. It seems that the term can be defined in different ways by different people. From the perspective of the last five popes, there are problems, but there is not an emergency that justifies a break.

The interesting situation is that the word “emergency” seems to be more vague than we previously thought.

To be picky, just wanted to clarify our terminology here. The SSPX claim “extraordinary” jurisdiction to be able to minister the Sacraments to the faithful who are with or approach them - as a result of their interpretation of the crisis in the Church.

That there is a crisis these years past, is not in dispute, it’s just how and who’s job it is to sort it out! The SSPX et al. resist papal appeals to come back into full communion where they will be able to work and apply their energies to solving the crisis.

**"But it remains true that some priests and members of the faithful mask with the name “Conciliar” those personal interpretations and erroneous practices that are injurious, even scandalous, and at times sacrilegious.

But these abuses cannot be attributed either to the Council itself or to the reform that have legitimately issued therefrom, but rather to a lack of authentic fidelity in their regard.

You want to convince the faithful that the proximate cause of the crisis is more than a wrong interpretation of the Council and that it flows from the Council itself."**

**"Moreover, you act as if you had a particular role in this regard. But the mission of discerning and remedying the abuses is first of all Ours; it is the mission of all the bishops who work together with Us.
**
**Indeed We do not cease to raise Our voice against these excesses: Our discourse to the consistory of last May 21 repeated this in clear terms. ****
**
**More than anyone else We hear the suffering of distressed Christians, and We respond to the cry of the faithful longing for faith and the spiritual life. ****
**
This is not the place to remind you, brother, of all the acts of Our pontificate that testify to Our constant concern to ensure for the church fidelity to the true tradition, and to enable her with God’s grace to face the present and future."
**Letter of Pope Paul VI to Archbishop Lefevbre
**jloughnan.tripod.com/pvi2lefebvre.htm



Freiburg, Germany, Sep 24, 2011 / 07:17 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- ** “The real crisis facing the Church in the western world is a crisis of faith,” **Pope Benedict XVI told gathering of lay Catholics Sept. 24.

Using Catholicism in Germany as an example, the Pope said that while the German Church was “superbly organized” it was perhaps lacking in a “corresponding spiritual strength, the strength of faith in a living God.”
“We must honestly admit that we have more than enough by way of structure but not enough by way of Spirit. I would add: the real crisis facing the Church in the western world is a crisis of faith.”

To tackle these problems at their root, the Pope explained, he had created the Pontifical Council for New Evangelization. Established last year, it has a particular mission to re-evangelize those traditionally Christian countries that have seen a decline in belief and practice in recent years. The Pope stressed, however, that without a renewal in faith “all structural reform will remain ineffective.”

He concluded by praying that God “always point out to us how together we can be lights in the world and can show our fellow men the path to the source at which they can quench their profound thirst for life.”
catholicnewsagency.com/news/church-in-west-suffering-crisis-of-faith-says-pope/

 

[Julia_Mae]

If, to give an example, the road were blocked by heavy snow and a family cannot get to Mass, this situation will not change if the Pope issues a statement “No, it’s all right - you can go”. If a family are unable to avail of Catholic formation for their family via the ‘mainstream’ structures, it is not going against the Church to avail of the emergency provisions provided by the SSPX. This is not meant in any disrespectful way at all: .

Really? You are comparing blizzard blocking a road to people taking it upon themselves to ignore the Pope and decide the “formation” available to them through their Diocese is not Catholic? How is this not disrespectful? Once the Pope suspended the faculties of all the SSPX priests, how is anyone continuing to attend SSPX Mass not declaring themselves exempt from Papal jurisdiction?

I’m honestly not trying to be contentious, I really cannot understand what you are saying.

 

[Julia_Mae]

The interesting situation is that the word “emergency” seems to be more vague than we previously thought.

And that the Pope and Magisterium don’t get to decide when it exists.

 

[Julia_Mae]

from www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X/Vocations/

Priestly and Religious Communities for Men

• Benedictine Monks (Brazil) - 1 monastery: The Monastery of the Holy Cross
• Benedictine Monks (USA) - 1 monastery
• Dominican Brothers - 1 house: FRIARY OF LA HAYE AUX BONSHOMMES
• Capuchins - 1 monastery (Morgon, France)
• Society of the Transfiguration (Merigny, France)
• The Helpers of Christ the King - Maison St. Joseph (Caussade, France)
• Redemptorist Fathers - Monastery of the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary (Eastchurch, England)

Religious Communities for Women

• Carmelites -
  Carmel de Sacré Coeur (Quiévrain, Belgium) &
  Carmel of the Holy Trinity (WA, U.S.A.)
• Benedictines -
  Monastère Notre-Dame de Toute Confiance(Virlet, France)
  Monastery of the Sacred Heart of Jesus(BRASIL)
  Dominican Teaching Sisters of the Holy Name of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary (Brignolles)
  The foundation of Post Falls, (ID, U.S.A.)
• Dominicans Contemplative Sisters - Monastère Saint-Joseph (Avrillé, France)
• Poor Clares of the Traditional Observance (Morgon, France)
• Franciscan Sisters of the strict observance
  Monastere S. Francis at Le Trevoux (France)
  Monastere N. D. des Fontaines at Morlaix (France)
• Dominicans Teaching Sisters of Brignolles
  Cours Saint Dominique Saint-Pré du Coeur Immaculé (La Celle, France)
• Dominicans Teaching Sisters of Fanjeaux
  Cours Saint Dominique de Cammazou (Fanjeaux, France)
• Dominican Sisters of Wanganui, New Zealand
• Franciscan Teaching Sisters of Christ the King, Kansas City
• The Disciples of the Cenacle (Roma, Italy)
• Transfiguration Sisters - Maison des Soeurs (Mérigny, France)
• Sisters of Le Rafflay (Château-Thébaud, France)
• Precious Blood Sisters (Häusern, Germany)
• Consoling Sisters of the Sacred Heart (Vigne, Italy)
• The Sisters of the Helpers of Christ the King - Maison St. Joseph (Caussade, France)
• The Franciscan Sisters of the Perpetual Help of Mary (Mexico)

Plus their internal subgroups

• Society of St. Pius X (Priestly)
• Society of St. Pius X Brothers
• The Sisters of the SSPX
• The Oblates of the SSPX

And their Eastern “equivalent” group, for whom the SSPX have done ordinations.

• Societatis Sacerdotalis St. Joseph Kuntsepha (SSJK) - (Ukraine)

That’s just the groups EASILY found…

As I’ve said before - the only thing that shows that they are not a schismatic church already is the refusal to claim Ordinary Jurisdiction.

Wow. And of course we have no idea how many of these oblates there are and we don’t know how many of the laity affiliate themselves by only attending SSPX chapels and becoming part of the SSPX culture. Thanks for going to the trouble to post this list.

So, they don’t want to be a separate church, they want to become the Church. Or maybe more correctly convert the Church to all SSPX all the time. They just need enough Cardinals in their corner to elect a sympathetic Pope. No wonder Benedict XVI has been churning out Cardinals, lately.