SSPX Update - Redux

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The argument employed by the SSPX and others is that this would settle the matter if it were a disciplinary or administrative issue, which is created by the Pope. But a State of Emergency is an objective issue, like the noon temperature in a particular district.
This seems a rather illogical position. Even an outside observer would note that there is just a small number who think there is an “emergency” making it a pretty darn subjective opinion, not that they are th first that can not understand the difference between fact an their own opinion.
 
If, to give an example, the road were blocked by heavy snow and a family cannot get to Mass, this situation will not change if the Pope issues a statement “No, it’s all right - you can go”. If a family are unable to avail of Catholic formation for their family via the ‘mainstream’ structures, it is not going against the Church to avail of the emergency provisions provided by the SSPX.
Your analogy doesn’t work at all. What’s really happening is SSPX says there was a blizzard and the roads are impassable, and the Pope says that it was a few flurries and the roads are fine. Try that with your manager at work.

His Holiness, the Pope, is the only one who can declare the emergency. If he says there is no emergency, then there is no emergency and SSPX is in direct disobedience. Just like couples who decide to use artificial birth control or receive Holy Communion after divorce and remarriage without annulment. You can* think* you have a good reason, but you don’t.
These provisions do exist, as they must in any system of Law.
Every system of law has judges, and the Pope is the finally judge.
 
This seems a rather illogical position. Even an outside observer would note that there is just a small number who think there is an “emergency” making it a pretty darn subjective opinion, not that they are th first that can not understand the difference between fact an their own opinion.
:tiphat:

I post more extracts from this letter, as for me, the origins are of immense interest in that nothing seems to have changed in the attitude of the SSPX at all in the last 27 years - as seen by the recent last minute back-tracking by Bishop Fellay, which has happened countless times over these years.

How disappointing for the Holy Father & all involved, thousands of hours, immense efforts, 2 years of talks etc etc. and Bishop Fellay does not even have the courtesy to send an official reply. Surely that speaks volumes in itself:confused:

Not that those who suffer the abuses that do take place here and there in the Church don’t have my immense sympathy, they do, and our family has had their share - to the point we really are fed up. Last week we had to endure the youth group crooning the old Beatles song “Let it be” during communion of all times! Maybe not an abuse as such, but certainly inappropriate.🤷

"When We received you in audience on last September 11 at Castelgandolfo, We let you freely express your position and your desires, even though the various aspects of your case were already well known to Us personally.

The memory that We still have of your zeal for the faith and the apostolate, as well as of the good you have accomplished in the past at the service of the church, made Us and still makes Us hope that you will once again become an edifying subject in full ecclesial communion.

After the particularly serious actions that you have performed, We have once more asked you to reflect before God concerning your duty.

We have waited a month. The attitude to which your words and acts publicly testify does not seem to have changed.

It is true that We have before Us your letter of September 16, in which you affirm:
**“A common point unites us; the ardent desire to see the cessation of all the abuses that disfigure the church. How I wish to collaborate in this salutary work, with Your Holiness and under Your authority, so that the church may recover her true countenance.” **

“How must these few words to which your response is limited - and which in themselves are positive - be interpreted? You speak as if you have forgotten your scandalous words and gestures against ecclesial communion - words and gestures that you have never retracted.”

“You do not manifest repentance, even for the cause of your suspension a divines. You do not explicitly express your acceptance if the authority of the Second Vatican Council and of the Holy See - and this constitutes the basis of the problem - and you continue in those personal works of yours which the legitimate authority has expressly ordered you to suspend.”

"But in your interpretations of the facts and in the particular role that you assign yourself, as well as in the way in which you accomplish this role, there is something that misleads the people of God and deceives souls of good will who are justly desirous of fidelity and of spiritual and apostolic progress. "
(This letter was sent to Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre one month after he visited the Pope on September 11, 1976. The archbishop had rejected parts of the Vatican II decrees and some of the subsequent post-conciliar enactments of the Holy See and had been the object of widespread publicity as he celebrated Tridentine Masses in various parts of Europe. In June, 1976, the archbishop had defied a direct order from the Pope not to ordain seminarians at the seminary he founded in Econe, Switzerland. In this letter, the Pope told the archbishop that while pluralism in the church is legitimate, it must be a licit pluralism rooted in obedience.

The Pope said the archbishop, rather than practicing obedience, had propagated and organized a rebellion. This, he added, “is the essential issue” in the archbishop’s regard.

In this letter, the Pope outlined his conditions for rectifying matters, including a call for a declaration from the archbishop affirming adherence to Vatican II, a declaration that, among other things, retracts accusations or insinuations leveled against the Pope.

The text of the Pope’s letter has been taken from Origins, NC Documentary Service, December 16, 1976)
jloughnan.tripod.com/pvi2lefebvre.htm
 
:tiphat:

I post more extracts from this letter…
Can I ask a question which is prompted by curiosity not doubt - where did the text originally come from? We’ve spoken here before about making these things public, did the Pope do that? It says at your link that parts were omitted by someone else, so I just wanted to know what the original source was, if you know? Thanks.
 
from www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X/Vocations/

Priestly and Religious Communities for Men
  • Benedictine Monks (Brazil) - 1 monastery: The Monastery of the Holy Cross
  • Benedictine Monks (USA) - 1 monastery
  • Dominican Brothers - 1 house: FRIARY OF LA HAYE AUX BONSHOMMES
  • Capuchins - 1 monastery (Morgon, France)
  • Society of the Transfiguration (Merigny, France)
  • The Helpers of Christ the King - Maison St. Joseph (Caussade, France)
  • Redemptorist Fathers - Monastery of the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary (Eastchurch, England)
Religious Communities for Women
  • Carmelites -
    Carmel de Sacré Coeur (Quiévrain, Belgium) &
    Carmel of the Holy Trinity (WA, U.S.A.)
  • Benedictines -
    Monastère Notre-Dame de Toute Confiance(Virlet, France)
    Monastery of the Sacred Heart of Jesus(BRASIL)
    Dominican Teaching Sisters of the Holy Name of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary (Brignolles)
    The foundation of Post Falls, (ID, U.S.A.)
  • Dominicans Contemplative Sisters - Monastère Saint-Joseph (Avrillé, France)
  • Poor Clares of the Traditional Observance (Morgon, France)
  • Franciscan Sisters of the strict observance
    Monastere S. Francis at Le Trevoux (France)
    Monastere N. D. des Fontaines at Morlaix (France)
  • Dominicans Teaching Sisters of Brignolles
    Cours Saint Dominique Saint-Pré du Coeur Immaculé (La Celle, France)
  • Dominicans Teaching Sisters of Fanjeaux
    Cours Saint Dominique de Cammazou (Fanjeaux, France)
  • Dominican Sisters of Wanganui, New Zealand
  • Franciscan Teaching Sisters of Christ the King, Kansas City
  • The Disciples of the Cenacle (Roma, Italy)
  • Transfiguration Sisters - Maison des Soeurs (Mérigny, France)
  • Sisters of Le Rafflay (Château-Thébaud, France)
  • Precious Blood Sisters (Häusern, Germany)
  • Consoling Sisters of the Sacred Heart (Vigne, Italy)
  • The Sisters of the Helpers of Christ the King - Maison St. Joseph (Caussade, France)
  • The Franciscan Sisters of the Perpetual Help of Mary (Mexico)
Plus their internal subgroups
  • Society of St. Pius X (Priestly)
  • Society of St. Pius X Brothers
  • The Sisters of the SSPX
  • The Oblates of the SSPX
And their Eastern “equivalent” group, for whom the SSPX have done ordinations.
  • Societatis Sacerdotalis St. Joseph Kuntsepha (SSJK) - (Ukraine)
.
I wanted to add to Aramis post just some USA numbers:

SSPX has about 112 churches/chapels in 37 states
They have their own 3rd order and also affiliated with them are
**“Third Order Franciscans” **

And 6 Apostolates:
  • Archconfraternity of St. Stephen (altar serving guild for men and boys)
  • Holy Name Society (men’s confraternity from promoting devotion to the name of Our Savior)
  • Prayer Crusade for Priests (organization for praying for the sanctification of priests)
  • Heart of Mary Crusade (open to all, including families, for praying for the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary)
  • Altar and Rosary Society (a sodality for ladies which assists the priests through the care of the altar linens, vestments, and their prayers)
  • Eucharistic Crusade (youth organization for promoting holiness amongst children)
 
And that the Pope and Magisterium don’t get to decide when it exists.
Yes and no. The pope has the final word on whether what we call an emergency meets his criteria of emergency. There is no appeal beyond his position. This was the argument with Archbishop Lefbvre. The Magisterium said that his assessment of an emergency was incorrect. They could not reach an agreement. on how to respond to the different problems.
 
Yes and no. The pope has the final word on whether what we call an emergency meets his criteria of emergency. There is no appeal beyond his position. This was the argument with Archbishop Lefbvre. The Magisterium said that his assessment of an emergency was incorrect. They could not reach an agreement. on how to respond to the different problems.
I was being facetious.
 
His Holiness, the Pope, is the only one who can declare the emergency. If he says there is no emergency, then there is no emergency and SSPX is in direct disobedience.
I agree with this completely. However, I cannot help but wonder that if the things which have taken place over the last 50 years in terms of people leaving the Faith, the crisis in seminary formation, clerical abuse scandals and cover-up, liturgical abuse, poor catechesis, rampant dismissal of Church teaching on moral issues, etc. do not constitute something of an emergency, I cannot see what would.
 
So, they don’t want to be a separate church, they want to become the Church. Or maybe more correctly convert the Church to all SSPX all the time. They just need enough Cardinals in their corner to elect a sympathetic Pope. No wonder Benedict XVI has been churning out Cardinals, lately.
Lets be charitable. I dont think you can assume these motives of the SSPX nor do I think BXVI even thinks of the SSPX when appointing Cardinals. In fact the Cardinals he is appointing are more in line with Traditionalists than Liberals. THAT is where he is changing the College.
 
In their minds and you’re not going to convince them otherwise.
What do you mean by this. Lets not bash the SSPX too much…
Your exact quotes could be used for the answer to this question.
Where does all this hatred for the SSPX come from?
“In their minds and you’re not going to convince them otherwise.”

I pray every day that they will be convinced otherwise and join in full communion. You should have that goal and hope too. And I pray that they are wrong about there being an emergency. But there is a serious problem. To deny that is a folly.
 
What do you mean by this. Lets not bash the SSPX too much…
Your exact quotes could be used for the answer to this question.
Where does all this hatred for the SSPX come from?
“In their minds and you’re not going to convince them otherwise.”

I pray every day that they will be convinced otherwise and join in full communion. You should have that goal and hope too. And I pray that they are wrong about there being an emergency. But there is a serious problem. To deny that is a folly.
Where do you deduce all that you have from my simple post? Please do not accuse me of things.

There are no problems today in the Church that we did not have in the past.

Have you read much Church history?

Perhaps Brother Jay can tell you what it was like during the time of St. Francis and St. Dominic.
 
Lets be charitable. I dont think you can assume these motives of the SSPX nor do I think BXVI even thinks of the SSPX when appointing Cardinals. In fact the Cardinals he is appointing are more in line with Traditionalists than Liberals. THAT is where he is changing the College.
There’s Traditonalists and traditionalists. That capital T is a subtle difference.
 
I agree with this completely. However, I cannot help but wonder that if the things which have taken place over the last 50 years in terms of people leaving the Faith, the crisis in seminary formation, clerical abuse scandals and cover-up, liturgical abuse, poor catechesis, rampant dismissal of Church teaching on moral issues, etc. do not constitute something of an emergency, I cannot see what would.
Could it be that there is a difference between “emergency” and “state of emergency”? Like in the Constitutional law? For example, the Lithuanian Constitution says:
Article 144
If the threat to constitutional order or public order arises, Seimas [the Parliament] can declare the state of emergency in the whole state or in the part of its territory. It can be up to six months long.
Between sessions of Seimas in the cases that cannot wait, the President of the Republic can make such decision, concurrently calling an extraordinary session of Seimas to discuss the decision. …]
The state of emergency is regulated by a law.
Article 145
If the martial law or state of emergency is declared, the rights and liberties described in Constitution’s articles 22, 24, 25, 32, 35 and 36 can be temporarily suspended.
[Translation is mine; it… is not necessarily perfectly accurate]
In short, a random policeman cannot declare that the right of speech is suspended just because he thinks that Seimas or President should have declared a state of emergency. And it doesn’t matter if he is right to think so.

Furthermore, not every “emergency” results in “state of emergency”. For example, a fire in a house does count as an “emergency”, but it is unlikely that “state of emergency” is going to be declared because of that.

Couldn’t it make sense if something like that was true in the Church as well?
 
Where do you deduce all that you have from my simple post? Please do not accuse me of things.

There are no problems today in the Church that we did not have in the past.

Have you read much Church history?

Perhaps Brother Jay can tell you what it was like during the time of St. Francis and St. Dominic.
I’m sorry your post seemed rather snide and cynical. If I misread it then I am sorry. I’ll try to do better next time. Either way it is great news that you did not mean it the way I read it. 👍

I am versed in Church history and secular history as well as biblical history. And while “there is nothing new under the sun.” It is not the rosiest time in history either. So let’s put aside that notion unless you or I have lived in 600BC or 1800AD Africa, or a Nazi war camp.

Things are bad. And that is part of what the human condition brings. It is also a part of living in a fallen state. lets just leave it at that.
 
Moore, that is not how I meant my post and I am sorry you took it that way. Maybe one day I will learn how to post in a clear and charitable manner so that the meaning of my post is not misunderstood. Say a prayer for me.
 
What do you mean by this. Lets not bash the SSPX too much…
Your exact quotes could be used for the answer to this question.
Where does all this hatred for the SSPX come from?
"In their minds and you’re not going to convince them otherwise."

I pray every day that they will be convinced otherwise and join in full communion. You should have that goal and hope too. And I pray that they are wrong about there being an emergency. But there is a serious problem. To deny that is a folly.
Have you ever been ‘in’ the SSPX? I just wonder why you are so quick to judge & condemn those who have? How would you know if what Lormar says (in bold above) is true or not? Anyway, the statement made is of such a general nature that it hardly qualifies as ‘bashing’ or ‘hatred’. Perhaps the truth hurts?
 
Moore, that is not how I meant my post and I am sorry you took it that way. Maybe one day I will learn how to post in a clear and charitable manner so that the meaning of my post is not misunderstood. Say a prayer for me.
You and me both, brother…😉
 
Couldn’t it make sense if something like that was true in the Church as well?
Perhaps.

Too often, here and elsewhere, I hear the response which goes something like “well this is hardly the worst crisis the Church has faced, its not nearly as bad as XYZ situation that happened a thousand years ago”. And, to be fair they might be right. However, that does not diminish the situation which faces the world at present and which has faced it in the last decades. It also does not diminish the fact that we are capable of assessing problems and delivering a targeted response in the world of today in a way that we were not a thousand years ago. Communicating with people does not take weeks and months and a world wide response to something or discussion about something, can happen in minutes by having a simple conference call. In short, it isn’t a thousand years ago and we need to stop viewing the severity of our problems and the manner in which we respond, through that lens.

To borrow your analogy, a single house on fire might not be a state of emergency for the entire community, but it sure as heck is one for the people who live there, and we need to recognize that. Secondly, if a house is on fire, you don’t sit around and talk about how that fire isn’t nearly as bad as the one we had 50 years ago, you get out there and put the darn thing out. You do that not only to help that situation as much as you can, but you also do it because if you don’t, it is likely to spread and engulf the whole neighborhood. In addition, you conduct an investigation to find out how the fire started so that it can be prevented in the future. Thirdly, if there are house fires cropping up all over the place, it is indicative of a larger problem and due diligence is needed to find out why and how to prevent it from continuing.

In addition, so that we are clear, unlike some who wish to go back to the times before the council and hit the reset button, I do not blame the problems the Church has faced totally on Vatican II or on the OF of the Mass. These problems were already there or they would have taken much longer to manifest though some would have us believe that it is the council and the Mass which has cause them. No, they were already there, just hidden under the surface where fewer people could see them.

And now, to address the other response that typically comes up with this argument which goes something like “well, it takes a long time for a council to really be understood and to be implemented properly”. Frankly, if we know that, and have known it for what would seem to be a very long time and still do not formulate a plan to mitigate this issue, then we need to take a serious look at our competence. Heck, at least start by ensuring that documents from the Vatican (council, encyclical, or otherwise), are written in a clear fashion and wait to release them until a plan is in place for proper implementation. Some issues will still creep up, that is impossible to prevent, but at least widespread problems can be minimized.
 
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