SSPX Update - Redux

[Thomas_Casey]

RECESS

Let’s pull the conversation back to the middle, because it’s all over the place. Please refrain from passing judgment on the SSPX and from speaking about each other.

You can certainly say what you think about a point, without being judgmental about the individual.

Thanks

 

[Mike30]

Hey I’vegot an idea. Why Don t all of us,who by the way have absolutely no stake in the situation simply back out,stop with the self serving and usually catty comments they need to tale their shoes off and come inside, too many flies and cold air coming in give me a break, and simply wait for what the Vatican and the society figure out. Whatever happens is their business. Not ours. I doubt there are any SSPX. Priests or Bishops here and I know there is no one who represents the Magesterium or the Holy Father either just give it a rest.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Well

By that logic we shouldn’t discuss anything that doesn’t directly concern us. .

The forums would be dead in a week

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I agree with this completely. However, I cannot help but wonder that if the things which have taken place over the last 50 years in terms of people leaving the Faith, the crisis in seminary formation, clerical abuse scandals and cover-up, liturgical abuse, poor catechesis, rampant dismissal of Church teaching on moral issues, etc. do not constitute something of an emergency, I cannot see what would.

But the thing is, this sort of stuff is happening across all religious bodies. The crises is in the world in general, not just in the Church and not soley and only caused by Vatican II. The crises was brewing before the Council. Even if the Council had never happened, we would see rampant dismissal of Church teaching, people leaving the faith, even the clergy sex abuse scandals since many of the priests involved were already ordained in 1962 (or in seminary).

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

But the thing is, this sort of stuff is happening across all religious bodies. The crises is in the world in general, not just in the Church and not soley and only caused by Vatican II. The crises was brewing before the Council. Even if the Council had never happened, we would see rampant dismissal of Church teaching, people leaving the faith, even the clergy sex abuse scandals since many of the priests involved were already ordained in 1962 (or in seminary).

Almost as if the 20th Century was indeed the 100 years for Satan to do his worst.

 

[jwinch2]

But the thing is, this sort of stuff is happening across all religious bodies. The crises is in the world in general, not just in the Church and not soley and only caused by Vatican II. The crises was brewing before the Council. Even if the Council had never happened, we would see rampant dismissal of Church teaching, people leaving the faith, even the clergy sex abuse scandals since many of the priests involved were already ordained in 1962 (or in seminary).

Fair points. I already addressed them, and agreed with you to a large extent, above. My frustration is less that it happened, though that is frustrating, but rather in the response, or in some cases, lack of one.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10309211&postcount=627

 

[Julia_Mae]

I agree with this completely. However, I cannot help but wonder that if the things which have taken place over the last 50 years in terms of people leaving the Faith, the crisis in seminary formation, clerical abuse scandals and cover-up, liturgical abuse, poor catechesis, rampant dismissal of Church teaching on moral issues, etc. do not constitute something of an emergency, I cannot see what would.

Well, the drop-off in church attendance and abandoning the Faith started in 1957 and actually leveled off a bit after Vat2 for a few years. This paralleled the drop off in church attendance and leaving churches in every other Christian denomination until the giant televangelist churches hit the scene. They were the only ones reporting growth, but they are more like a fad than a faith.

There has been sex-abuse run rampant in the Church for almost a thousand years, so finally having something hit the fan is a bit of a relief. I’d rather have the publicity than the continuing action and cover ups.

Liturgical abuse is a matter of opinion, and hardly demonstrably “run rampant” and is hardly a worldwide phenomena, anyway.

You cannot blame poor catechesis on Vat 2, as most of the cradle Catholics I knew and heard about never read Scripture, thought the Bible was in alphabetical order and never heard the word “transubstantiation.” Catholics were notoriously ignorant of anything catechetical before Vat 2 except for whatever they had to memorize as children to get through catechism class. Most of which they promptly forgot.

So I don’t think any of these things constitute any sort of crisis. You want to see crisis in the Church, start reading forum threads continually started by people who seem to believe they are the liturgical police, the SSPX which is causing blatant scandal and divisiveness with public condemnations of the Popes and the church council and flaunting their disobedience, and characters getting funding from elements in the church like Michael Voris who can’t manage to ever be supportive in any way of the Pope he claims to respect.

You know what the real crisis involves? The souls of the people who have separated themselves from the Church Jesus founded, have abandoned any pretense of caring what the occupant of the Chair of Peter says and have decided they should sit at the head of the table and make pronouncements and who raised the sin of fideism to an art form.

The SSPX isn’t going to “save” the Church, and neither are the way out liberal elements who run off and ordain women. You want to know who the “real Catholics” are, look around the forum at folks who spend most of their time in prayer threads and in groups supporting each other and attending Mass without feeling like they have to attack every priest who THEY think might be breaking some rule or other.

The so-called crisis has been manufactured by those who wish to place themselves in authority instead of practicing the obedience they are vowed to. And this arrogant self-righteousness that is becoming some sort of honor badge of “true Catholic” is the very thing that will bring them all low.

Jesus Christ likes folks who sit at the end of the table. Maybe on the floor. And He doesn’t care a whit what language the Mass is said in.

 

[Melchior_1]

Well, the drop-off in church attendance and abandoning the Faith started in 1957 and actually leveled off a bit after Vat2 for a few years. This paralleled the drop off in church attendance and leaving churches in every other Christian denomination until the giant televangelist churches hit the scene. They were the only ones reporting growth, but they are more like a fad than a faith.

There has been sex-abuse run rampant in the Church for almost a thousand years, so finally having something hit the fan is a bit of a relief. I’d rather have the publicity than the continuing action and cover ups.

Liturgical abuse is a matter of opinion, and hardly demonstrably “run rampant” and is hardly a worldwide phenomena, anyway.

You cannot blame poor catechesis on Vat 2, as most of the cradle Catholics I knew and heard about never read Scripture, thought the Bible was in alphabetical order and never heard the word “transubstantiation.” Catholics were notoriously ignorant of anything catechetical before Vat 2 except for whatever they had to memorize as children to get through catechism class. Most of which they promptly forgot.

So I don’t think any of these things constitute any sort of crisis. You want to see crisis in the Church, start reading forum threads continually started by people who seem to believe they are the liturgical police, the SSPX which is causing blatant scandal and divisiveness with public condemnations of the Popes and the church council and flaunting their disobedience, and characters getting funding from elements in the church like Michael Voris who can’t manage to ever be supportive in any way of the Pope he claims to respect.

You know what the real crisis involves? The souls of the people who have separated themselves from the Church Jesus founded, have abandoned any pretense of caring what the occupant of the Chair of Peter says and have decided they should sit at the head of the table and make pronouncements and who raised the sin of fideism to an art form.

The SSPX isn’t going to “save” the Church, and neither are the way out liberal elements who run off and ordain women. You want to know who the “real Catholics” are, look around the forum at folks who spend most of their time in prayer threads and in groups supporting each other and attending Mass without feeling like they have to attack every priest who THEY think might be breaking some rule or other.

The so-called crisis has been manufactured by those who wish to place themselves in authority instead of practicing the obedience they are vowed to. And this arrogant self-righteousness that is becoming some sort of honor badge of “true Catholic” is the very thing that will bring them all low.

Jesus Christ likes folks who sit at the end of the table. Maybe on the floor. And He doesn’t care a whit what language the Mass is said in.

Well Julia, you just saved me a boatload of typing. Thank you for posting this, I agree 100%.

 

[jwinch2]

This paralleled the drop off in church attendance and leaving churches in every other Christian denomination until the giant televangelist churches hit the scene. They were the only ones reporting growth, but they are more like a fad than a faith.

I am hardly happy to hear that we have dropped off in attendance in the same manner as churches who do not have the grace which comes from the sacraments.

There has been sex-abuse run rampant in the Church for almost a thousand years, so finally having something hit the fan is a bit of a relief. I’d rather have the publicity than the continuing action and cover ups.

I agree its better to get it out in the open so that it can be addressed and move on.

Liturgical abuse is a matter of opinion, and hardly demonstrably “run rampant” and is hardly a worldwide phenomena, anyway.

Liturgical abuse is not a matter of opinion, not remotely so. There are things which are objectively right and things which are objectively wrong in the liturgy. Are there things which people think are abuses which are not? Of course. However, that does not change the objectivity of what is correct and proper in the liturgy. Furthermore, if it were not a widespread issue, which it is, the Vatican would not be taking steps such as this: zenit.org/article-36355?l=english

You cannot blame poor catechesis on Vat 2, as most of the cradle Catholics I knew and heard about never read Scripture, thought the Bible was in alphabetical order and never heard the word “transubstantiation.”

I didn’t blame it on VII. In fact, if you look at my follow on post, you will see that I specifically state that many of these issues were already there, under the surface, well before the council took place.

So I don’t think any of these things constitute any sort of crisis.

I disagree, and so do many others. Either everyone who feels that way is completely crazy, or you are wrong.

You want to see crisis in the Church, start reading forum threads continually started by people who seem to believe they are the liturgical police, the SSPX which is causing blatant scandal and divisiveness with public condemnations of the Popes and the church council and flaunting their disobedience, and characters getting funding from elements in the church like Michael Voris who can’t manage to ever be supportive in any way of the Pope he claims to respect.

I am no supporter of the SSPX or Voris.

You know what the real crisis involves? The souls of the people who have separated themselves from the Church Jesus founded, have abandoned any pretense of caring what the occupant of the Chair of Peter says and have decided they should sit at the head of the table and make pronouncements and who raised the sin of fideism to an art form.

Agreed, that is certainly a crisis. However, that does not make it the only one.

The SSPX isn’t going to “save” the Church, and neither are the way out liberal elements who run off and ordain women.

Agreed. I don’t think the SSPX is going to save much of anything. In fact, I think they will continue to splinter and fraction over the years, particular if part of them do reconcile with the Holy See, or once Bishop Fellay passes on.

You want to know who the “real Catholics” are, look around the forum at folks who spend most of their time in prayer threads and in groups supporting each other and attending Mass without feeling like they have to attack every priest who THEY think might be breaking some rule or other.

There are many “real Catholics” as you describe it. It is hardly wrong to be concerned that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is being celebrated correctly and reverently. Should people pray more? Of course, me first among them. However, to suggest that the people on this forum who particulate in the prayer thread rather than dialogue in other fashions are the "real Catholics’ is insulting and entirely incorrect. There are many Catholics who go out of their way to pray for and support people, to include their priests, who also see things which concern them from time to time and, since few in their parish care one way or the other, see CAF as an outlet where they can express their situation or get a question answered. Could things be handled more charitably at times? Of course. That doesn’t change the fact that using this forum in that manner is a worthwhile and acceptable activity.

The so-called crisis has been manufactured by those who wish to place themselves in authority instead of practicing the obedience they are vowed to.

And therein lies the problem. When you dismiss people’s concerns which they believe are real as a “so-called crisis” or as being “manufactured” then you have immediately shut down any potential for common understanding or dialogue. Its real to them, or they would not be bringing it up. Telling them its not real isn’t going to fix anything. In fact, dismissing the concerns of people out of hand contributes greatly to people becoming disillusioned and joining groups such as the SSPX.

And this arrogant self-righteousness that is becoming some sort of honor badge of “true Catholic” is the very thing that will bring them all low.

I’m not sure who the “they” you are speaking of here is, but since you responded to me when saying it, I assume that I am included. To clear things up, I hardly consider myself better than anyone else. I am a lowly sinner, hence my very frequent attendance at the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Jesus Christ likes folks who sit at the end of the table. Maybe on the floor. And He doesn’t care a whit what language the Mass is said in.

Personally, I prefer English, since I actually understand it. But that’s just me.

 

[Moore11]

Julia Mae;10309634]Well, the drop-off in church attendance and abandoning the Faith started in 1957 and actually leveled off a bit after Vat2 for a few years. This paralleled the drop off in church attendance and leaving churches in every other Christian denomination until the giant televangelist churches hit the scene. They were the only ones reporting growth, but they are more like a fad than a faith.

This is a valid point

There has been sex-abuse run rampant in the Church for almost a thousand years, so finally having something hit the fan is a bit of a relief. I’d rather have the publicity than the continuing action and cover ups.

Why just a thousand? 1500 years ago there was no sexual abuse in the entirety of the faith?

Liturgical abuse is a matter of opinion, and hardly demonstrably “run rampant” and is hardly a worldwide phenomena, anyway.

You could not be more wrong on this. Liturgical abuse is rampant where I live. It is very much the norm. That is not opinion. Abuses are not opinons. I am glad that you do not experience abuses. I wish I could say the same.

You cannot blame poor catechesis on Vat 2, as most of the cradle Catholics I knew and heard about never read Scripture, thought the Bible was in alphabetical order and never heard the word “transubstantiation.” Catholics were notoriously ignorant of anything catechetical before Vat 2 except for whatever they had to memorize as children to get through catechism class. Most of which they promptly forgot.

Absolutley!!! I would ad that they still are ignorant.

So I don’t think any of these things constitute any sort of crisis. You want to see crisis in the Church, start reading forum threads continually started by people who seem to believe they are the liturgical police, the SSPX which is causing blatant scandal and divisiveness with public condemnations of the Popes and the church council and flaunting their disobedience, and characters getting funding from elements in the church like Michael Voris who can’t manage to ever be supportive in any way of the Pope he claims to respect.

I dont think you are grasping what a crisis is or how the majority of people practice or dont practice their faith.

You know what the real crisis involves? The souls of the people who have separated themselves from the Church Jesus founded, have abandoned any pretense of caring what the occupant of the Chair of Peter says and have decided they should sit at the head of the table and make pronouncements and who raised the sin of fideism to an art form.

Yes, absolutely. But I think the same could be said for any Catholic who puts themselves above Peter at any time. On issues such as ABC, or any other secular lie we as Catholics have bought into and make our “Church” and in my experience those people far outnumber the SSPX.

The SSPX isn’t going to “save” the Church, and neither are the way out liberal elements who run off and ordain women. You want to know who the “real Catholics” are, look around the forum at folks who spend most of their time in prayer threads and in groups supporting each other and attending Mass without feeling like they have to attack every priest who THEY think might be breaking some rule or other.

I agree.

The so-called crisis has been manufactured by those who wish to place themselves in authority instead of practicing the obedience they are vowed to. And this arrogant self-righteousness that is becoming some sort of honor badge of “true Catholic” is the very thing that will bring them all low.

So called? you are wrong.
Are you a true Catholic? If the SSPX were like you would they be on the right path?

Jesus Christ likes folks who sit at the end of the table. Maybe on the floor. And He doesn’t care a whit what language the Mass is said in.

It is good you know what your Jesus thinks of the EF, OF situation and place settings.

I am a split personality about your post. On one hand you say a lot of true things. Your post also got me thinking.
I don’t believe for a minute that VII had ANYTHING to do with the real and present crisis in the Church and our world. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves. What I do think is that VII has not HELPED the Crisis of our time. In short. Every problem we see or in your view “conjour up” would still be an issue if VII had never been. Or had been convened in the year 2000. The 1960s brought huge changes to our world and Church that we are only beginning to see today. VII just happens to be a scapegoat. And no problem was ever solved by going after the scapegoat.

On the other hand, being too dismissive of the state of the World and Church is a folly in the opposite direction. The “Move along nothing to see here” approach will not solve anything either.
Putting a head in the sand does nothing to win souls or keep the faith.

In my opinion the real Catholics are the ones who watch all the abuse, all the fluff, all the problems, listen to all the namby pamby no substance things going on and are STILL obedient. Real Catholics like me, who sit every Sunday because there is no where else to go, who are obedient to a Bishop who we may not agree with at all. We are silent because we are obedient because we do not put ourselves above our paygrade. I realize that Jesus is at the Mass we are at no matter what. And those like me who long for a more reverent awakening of faith.
My Bishop has directed that we not attend the SSPX even for love of the EF. I will be obedient. He is my Bishop. In a year or so we will have another Bishop and I will obey him as well. No matter what.
I would love to go to the EF, I love it, I long for it. I can’t. If the SSPX were to be regularized I could. end of story.

 

[Aramis]

Wow. And of course we have no idea how many of these oblates there are and we don’t know how many of the laity affiliate themselves by only attending SSPX chapels and becoming part of the SSPX culture. Thanks for going to the trouble to post this list.

So, they don’t want to be a separate church, they want to become the Church. Or maybe more correctly convert the Church to all SSPX all the time. They just need enough Cardinals in their corner to elect a sympathetic Pope. No wonder Benedict XVI has been churning out Cardinals, lately.

Most of those monasteries and convents number under 2 dozen souls in their membership. Which is not unreasonably small, either… but it’s not like some of the mainstream Franciscan and Dominican friaries don’t measure in the hundreds each.

 

[Aramis]

Re: State of Emergency

Canon law says there has to be a state of emergency for extraordinary faculties. The one that applies for confession most often is immediate danger of death.

Older versions of Canon law imply a state of emergency to axiomatically require an inability to make contact with the Pope in a reasonable time.

There was a state of emergency in the Ukraine and Russia under Stalin, and in China under Mao. Contact with Rome was nearly impossible, so bishops were allowed to ordain successors. That state of emergency never affected France.

The SSPX are not persecuted by civil authority.
The SSPX are not unable to contact Rome.
The SSPX are not confronted with a comatose pope.
The SSPX are not confronted with a manifest heretic in the papal miter.

Therefor, the prior conditions that were judged by popes to be states of emergency don’t seem to apply.

 

[numealinesimpet]

But where is the emergency?

I would ask longtime followers of CAF to have patience if they have read this story before. I know personally two people who informed me of this event. One of them was close friends with the priest mentioned, and passed on the information with his permission. He was one of maybe three diocesan priests who declined the bishop’s request to attend this event. I had previously spoken to one of my informants, about the SSPX, and I cautioned her, ‘It is not a trivial decision to make: you have to know exactly what you are doing and why’. Likewise, I never raise the SSPX issue with my neighbours at our local mainstream parish, unless some incident sends them over the edge and they consider leaving the Church. (Many of them do know that our family go to the Old Latin Mass in town). More than a year after I spoke to the mother from Phoenix, she sent me an account of the Baseball Confirmation. The following week she and her family had begun attending the SSPX chapel.
I might add that the email I received from her was expressed in much stronger terms than this account on sites.google.com/site/catholictopics/the-church-since-vatican-ii/baseball-confirmation-of-phoenix-arizona-in-1998 .

I am not quoting this to prove a thesis that there is a universal, worldwide State of Emergency (or State of Necessity); but if I personally had had a family in Arizona at the time, I would have sent my child for Confirmation from an SSPX bishop with a clear conscience.

At the Mass following the Confirmation, the celebrant would have prayed for the Bishop of Arizona, he being the Local Ordinary, in the correct place in the Canon of the Mass, as well as for the Pope by name. (This is why most sedevacs will not attend SSPX Masses). The SSPX bishop does not claim or usurp jurisdiction; the SSPX position is that he provides an emergency service.

**The Baseball Confirmation of Phoenix, Arizona, 1998. **
The following true account is “compiled from various sources”. Let the reader be aware that some of these sources were Diocesan magazines up and down the USA, who reported the incident with approval.

In June 1998 the bishop in Phoenix, Arizona had all of that year’s candidates for confirmation come to the new baseball stadium to all be confirmed on the same day. He gave every priest in the diocese faculties to confirm during the service. He invited all attendees (including a special invitation to non-Catholics) to come to the ballpark wearing red shirts for the Holy Spirit. They then sang a song to the Holy Spirit to the tune of “Take me out to the Ballpark,” an American folksong sung by Barney the dinosaur to name one advocate of the song. During the Mass, many people were seen eating hot dogs and popcorn. The candidates for confirmation poured out of the bleacher seats to any priest anywhere and were confirmed. No ID was required from candidates to ascertain who was eligible for confirmation or to receive the Eucharist.

After the Confirmation, two boxes arrived at the rectory of a local church to a truly devout priest. A delivery man plopped the boxes on the counter and said, “These are for you. They are the consecrated hosts that weren’t used at the ballpark.” He opened the boxes and to his horror he found two large food service containers, generally used to hold about 10 gallons of ice cream, filled with consecrated hosts. The second box didn’t even have these. It was lined with butcher paper and thousands of consecrated hosts were tossed into the box. He immediately took the boxes to the sacristy and started to reserve the Blessed Sacrament in every ciborium and chalice he could find. He then scoured each container and box for Crumbs to consume. He counted 5000 hosts. Did the celebrants over-consecrate 5000 hosts? Or was it more? Did another parish receive a similar shipment?

The faithful of Arizona had two choices in 1998. They could take their child to the SSPX chapel where he would be confirmed according to the rites of the Catholic Church, specifically and infallibly ‘canonised’ at the Council of Trent and by Pope S. Pius V in perpetuity. Or they could take them to the Ballpark.

As Cdls Ottaviani and Bacci noted to Pope Paul VI in the document generally known as ‘The Ottaviani Intervention’ in 1969 [The Ottaviani Intervention]](http://www.fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html]) , the situation arising since the close of the Second Vatican Council (whose validity they never questioned) was giving rise to ‘an agonising crisis of conscience’.

 

[Dee_S]

Well

By that logic we shouldn’t discuss anything that doesn’t directly concern us. .

The forums would be dead in a week

:yyeess: . . . . . :curtsey:

 

[Dee_S]

**In my opinion the real Catholics are the ones who watch all the abuse, all the fluff, all the problems, listen to all the namby pamby no substance things going on and are STILL obedient. Real Catholics like me, who sit every Sunday because there is no where else to go, who are obedient to a Bishop who we may not agree with at all. We are silent because we are obedient because we do not put ourselves above our paygrade. I realize that Jesus is at the Mass we are at no matter what. And those like me who long for a more reverent awakening of faith.

My Bishop has directed that we not attend the SSPX even for love of the EF. I will be obedient. He is my Bishop. In a year or so we will have another Bishop and I will obey him as well. No matter what.

I would love to go to the EF, I love it, I long for it. I can’t. If the SSPX were to be regularized I could. end of story.**

:clapping::tiphat::byzsoc::getholy:

 

[simple_soul]

*I so hope and pray that the SSPX and others who are of like mind will some day be able to work through and unite themselves with the Pope and his guidance. I know it seems dim right now but I do still have hope. A while back, I am not sure about the exact thread that it was on but a poster was talking about her own painful experience. In reading it I became very keenly aware of this pain inside of me that I had known for a long time and could never put my finger on it…I stayed up the majority of that night praying about it and going over my life trying to remember all my painful experiences…as I looked at each one I kept analyzing it and realizing the pain did not quite fit this very deep pain I was in…so I kept digging…as I kept digging I kept having flash-backs of a speech that the actor Al Pacino makes at the end of the movie “Sent of a Woman.” If you have never seen the movie here is a clip of it.youtube.com/watch?v=TPSzV4IbwSg Al Pacino’s character is a blind disable veteran and you really have to watch the movie to get the full story. Anyway the one part of that speech that kept coming to mind was this; “I’ve been around you know! There was a time when I could see and I have seen! Boys like these, younger than these, their arms torn off! Their legs ripped out! But there is nothing like the sight of an amputated spirit! There is no prosthetic for that!”
These words just kept coming to my mind and I had to ask myself why? For some reason those words, even when I had heard them so long ago, hit so close to home with me…
I believe the reason why those words resonated so much inside of me was because I felt like my spirit ha been amputated. It was like I had this big gapping wound in me that was left in its wake. I so believe this wound was inflicted when Jesus, my sole comfort, my joy, my strength, my very life and His Mother Mary, my comforter and mentor, had been taken away from me when my father had decided to stop taking us to church. …

Misguided as my father was I know he believed he was doing the right thing. I understand that he did what he did under the understanding that he was trying to protect me from what he perceived as evil. Little did he know that he had just amputated my very soul from Life Himself. My father had taken from me the only one whom I had decided to live for, Jesus. I had given myself to Him entirely at a young age. Having Jesus ripped from me like that under the understanding that it was to protect me caused a pain I did not grasp or comprehend . He Himself, ever since I could remember, was the only one I knew who kept me from suffocating and dying a slow spiritual agonizing death of fear. Jesus, my sole comfort, my joy, my strength, my very life and His Mother Mary, my comforter and mentor, had been taken away from me. It was like I was plunged into a suffocating downward spiral of chaos, confusion and fear and I could feel myself slowly dying from it.
I watched as he did this with every “legalized,” “reasoned,” objection he had with the Pope’s leadership and guidance.
I believe it was Jesus Himself though the Eucharist who eventually lead me back to Church and I am eternally grateful for that.

What I do believe He has shown me through all that I went through is that when we do not have Jesus in our lives we do become spiritually blind. We no longer see evil for evil and good for good. We start to see evil as good and good as evil. It all becomes so confusing and chaotic. We really do become spiritually blind and the only one who can heal us from this blindness is Jesus Christ Himself, through the Eucharist and other Sacraments through His Church. It is only He who can give sight to the spiritually blind. Something else I am learning is He will only heal our blindness according to our faith…so the greater our faith or desire is to see as Jesus Christ sees is, the more we will see as Jesus Christ sees,. and the more we see as Jesus Christ sees, the more we will come to understand and know what really is evil and what really is good…at times I feel like Al Pacino’s character, I’ve been around you know? There was a time I could see!"
Anyway, having been so close to Jesus and His Mother Mary and then having them ripped from me…and not knowing what had happened and then realizing they had never left my side and I had just seemingly taken them for granted…hurts really bad but at the same time fills me with great love, comfort, admiration peace and joy. The pain is that I did not really understand what a gift I had in them before they were ripped from me. Now I look at people and see how they too have a very special relationship with God and His Blessed Mother Mary but do not realize it. I believe I can also see how that in not realizing it they are not nourishing this relationship and are hurting from it too. *

 

[simple_soul]

Continued
*They are slowly dying that agonizing spiritual death because they are not opening themselves up to Him. I know if people can open themselves up to Jesus in the Eucharist He will heal them from this and their eyes will be opened too. but first they have to make it through the doors of His Church. But when they come to the doors of His Church to get out of the chaos and confusion it is filled with chaos and confusion. Bickering and arguing and then the disdain, contempt and scorn that they are shown because of their sinfulness or ignorance…and the contempt that is shown for the guidance of our Pope and Church leaders sends them running away. They are being turned away from the only one who can give them sight and help them with their confusion, ignorance, and sinfulness, Jesus Christ Himself…they do not realize, like I did not realize, that they are amputating themselves from the only one who can give them Life. To me, causing them to turn in this manner, is as Al Pacino said in that same clip, like sending them home with their tails between there legs and helping with the execution of their souls! Knowing this and with what I see posted here at CAF by some posters fills me with a great pain for them and a fear and anxiety that I do not have any words to describe. It is like I know there is a harvest that is ready and I am really fearful that it will spoil because of our sinfulness…and for the record I am refereeing to those who are like the SSPX seem to be. Regardless if you have the same philosophy or theology as they do.

when I first came to CAF I became very keenly aware of this pain inside of me. This pain reminding me of a pain I did not even really know I was suffering from and it took me the longest time to figure out what the root of that pain was. I believe that when my father stopped taking us to church he severed me from the only one whom I had found to live for. Jesus. In Him I had found a reason for living. I had given myself to Him and told Him I would do anything for Him and when my father stopped taking us, the family, to Church he took Him away from me. When I came to CAF and started to realize that even though I had suffered this severing He had never abandoned me and that not only had He not abandoned He was also protecting me from the pain that was inflicted upon me. When I started to realize how much had been ripped away from me and how hard it had been to get back to Him it awoke this pain in me like nothing I had ever experienced. I seemed to be reliving all the stories I remembered hearing growing up about how corrupt the Church was and how evil the rest of the world was. It was not really the memories that were causing me this pain but realizing these same things seemed to be holding back so many people from getting to Jesus, the only one who could save them. And as a Deacon said in a sermon a while back, only Jesus can give sight to the blind.
It is like all the arguing, bickering, legalized excuses and speculation of conspiracies of corruption and justifications is doing more harm than good in getting Jesus to these people. Seeing this woke up this pain I had suffered so long ago.
In reading the recent posts on this thread I wanted to share this with you all. I hope and pray it might help give some insight to some on how taking a stand with and being of like mind with the SSPX and trying to defend them and their cause might be doing more harm than good.

This whole thing also reminded me of the Message of Fatima and how it might apply to us. The part of the message that keeps going through my mind is: “Russia will spread her errors through out the world.”
I understand that this message has been interpreted to mean “Russia” as in the Socialist government that would spread it’s errors. But after following this thread and a few others here at CAF has lead me to believe that this message of Our Blessed Mother Mary at Fatima may have an even deeper meaning especially for us Catholics.

Please bear with me as I try to explain myself. One of the things that struck me was the timing of the apparitions. They took place in 1917.
Vatican I: 1869-1870
Vatican II : 1962-1965

I thought it was almost uncanny that the apparitions at Fatima took place almost right in the middle of these two Councils.
The other thing that struck me was how some had a very hard time accepting the Papal Infallibility that Vatican I did or was trying to define. Vatican II from what I understand confirmed this in some way.
This struggle is something that is still going on…the refusal to accept the Pope as the Authority on matters *

 

[simple_soul]

Continued
*concerning Faith and Morals and being the one to decide if we are or are not in a state of emergency is what I understand to be not accepting the authority or infallibility of the Pope that these Councils defined.
Finally that last thing is in looking at this was remembering what I had been told about the Russian Orthodox and why they were not Catholic. I had been told that one of the biggest issues they have is the subject of Papal Infallibility.
To me that spoke so many volumes. I now see the errors that Russia would be spreading as being central to this one issue. I understand that there are and have been many other issues but this one seems to be one that seems to have slipped through the cracks in some way. Not with the Popes or Magisterium, but more with the lay faithful. I know and understand that there may be other things out there that I have not taken into consideration, but from the way I see it now To me the whole Message of Fatima centered around trying to get rebellious and stubborn Catholics to start accepting Papal Infallibility in its entirety and looking to and accepting and trusting His guidance and leadership. Until we start doing this we will continue to keep the church fragmented and will continue to tear the Church apart like it was torn apart when the East and West split. To me the Message of Fatima is still ringing out loud and clear…we need to amend our ways we have to convert and move forward. There really are a lot of souls at stake.

As always I hope and pray I am not just rambling here but actually have made some sense shared some food for thought if it did not make any sense just ignore it. *

 

[numealinesimpet]

On the question of Jurisdiction …
(ellipses mine) –

remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2010-1031-mccall-fellay.htm

At the … recent Angelus Press conference to celebrate the 40th Anniversary of the Founding of the Society of St. Pius X (October 15-17), His Excellency Bishop Bernard Fellay … set the context by describing the Vatican’s policy as a process of “contradictions.” He characterized the recent history of the relations as a process of saying one thing publicly but having to speak and act differently in practical application. He seemed to be preparing his listeners to expect this dynamic of contradiction to continue, at least for the foreseeable future… With specific references to the Society, Bishop Fellay explained that the Holy See has been pursuing a two-pronged policy – an official de jure policy contradicted by de facto actions. He noted how the official line is embodied in the document released by the Secretary of State after the 2009 decree nullifying the excommunication of the Society’s bishops. According to this unsigned document, the Society does not exist legally and enjoys “no legal standing in the Church”, with the SSPX priests exercising their ministry “illicitly.” Yet, the Holy Father speaks and takes concrete actions that run contrary to this, oftentimes even recognizing the legal and valid existence and ministry of the Society priests.
…
For the non-lawyers … our mothers and fathers applied this perennial truth through the principle “actions speak louder than words.” Now there has been no legal situation more hotly debated in recent decades than that of the legal standing in the Church of the Society priests and bishops. A quick internet search reveals that the technical legal position is debated by Catholics on virtually all sides of this issue. In such a case, the actions of the Supreme Legislator (the Pope) must be examined in order to guide a sound understanding of the current legal confusion surrounding the issue.

Bishop Fellay demonstrated the application of this “principle of action” in the case of the Society through several examples, most of which have never been previously publicized. First, he mentioned the issue of SSPX confessions. As most Catholics know, there are certain grave sins, the remittance of which is reserved to the Holy See alone. Under Church law if a priest hears the confession of a person who has committed one of these reserved sins, he is obligated to report the matter to the Holy See within thirty days to receive permission to absolve as well as guidance for the imposition of an appropriate penance. His Excellency indicated that from time to time Society priests have heard such confessions, and that, in every case, the required notification was sent to the Holy See. In each of these cases, the response received from the Vatican was that “all was good and licit” and that the permission for the SSPX priest to absolve was granted.
What inference are we to draw from this? Obviously, the Society priests can validly hear confessions. If the Society priests lacked any form of jurisdiction to hear confessions, the Holy See would have replied that the penitent needed to confess to a priest with legal jurisdiction to hear confessions. By definition, we are here dealing with grave matter and hence mortal sin (assuming all other conditions are present). Yet even still, the Holy See replied to the SSPX that “all is good and licit.” The Holy See is thus making a de facto recognition of SSPX jurisdiction to hear confessions, a position that the Society and a number of canonical experts have maintained for years in the face of what is obviously a difficult legal situation.

(cont’d)…

 

[numealinesimpet]

remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2010-1031-mccall-fellay.htm
The second example cited by Bishop Fellay related to those priests who leave the Society of St. Pius X after having received ordination from one of her bishops. According to Church law and practice, a priest who receives Holy Orders outside the Church (i.e., from a bishop who though validly possessing the episcopal powers has nevertheless separated himself from the Catholic Church) is prohibited (upon return to the Catholic Church) from ever exercising the priestly powers conferred at his illicit ordination.
He retains the indelible mark of the priesthood but is permanently forbidden to exercise the related powers.
Yet, Bishop Fellay explained, whenever a priest ordained by a Society bishop left the Society but wished to remain a priest, the Holy See allowed him to exercise priestly powers. Again, the legal conclusion is inescapable: The SSPX priests were not ordained “outside the Church”. Although His Excellency did not mention any names, we know from the case of the founders of the Fraternity of St. Peter, to the priests of the Institute of the Good Shepherd, to the priests of St. John Vianney in Compos, Brazil, to a long list of individual priests ordained by a SSPX bishop—that they all have been permitted to exercise their priestly power. They were not, therefore, ordained “outside the Church” in the eyes of the Holy See. (This is not the case with one or two isolated priests being granted an exceptional derogation from this norm, but rather the consistent practice of allowing all these priests to exercise their priestly functions.)

(cont’d)