SSPX update?

[kbf1970060]

sspx.org/sspx_and_rome/bishop_fellay_econe_sermon_11-9-2012.htm

Bishop Fellay’s response of 2012 NOV 09 as to why conditions given to SSPX are impossible.

 

[kbf1970060]

In his interview with the National Catholic Register as reported early last month, Archbishop Muller (sorry, can’t type the umlaut) states: “The SSPX is not the only breakaway group in the Church. There are worse ones on the opposite side, too. These movements are worse because they are often denying essentials of Christianity.”

I’m curious if anyone knows, specifically, to what groups “on the left,” so to speak, Archbishop Muller is referring? …

It is incorrect to frame those whom are on the “opposite side” as “on the left”: the opposite side making denials of Christian essentials would be those whom reject Jesus being born of The Virgin Mary; those whom reject The Eucharist; those whom reject papal infallibility as defined by The Vatican Council, which to be specific would mean Masons, Fundamentalist Christians, Protestants, Anglicans, Lutherans, Quakers, etc…

 

[Dee_S]

It is incorrect to frame those whom are on the “opposite side” as “on the left”: the opposite side making denials of Christian essentials would be those whom reject Jesus being born of The Virgin Mary; those whom reject The Eucharist; those whom reject papal infallibility as defined by The Vatican Council, which to be specific would mean Masons, Fundamentalist Christians, Protestants, Anglicans, Lutherans, Quakers, etc…

Sorry. It is not possible to agree with your interpretation of how ‘left’ & ‘right’ are applied.

The terms 'left & ‘right’ are correctly applied in the instance of the position in regard to the Magisterium of the Church taken by the LCWR (left) and the SSPX (right). If you take it that the Church and It’s teachings/dogmas are in the middle, hypothetically speaking, then these erroneous denials or lack of full understanding of dogma - regale the organizations in question opposite.

How far they (the opposite organizations) drift and the dangers and/or penalties they expose themselves to are found in the Canon Law of the Church.

This extract is from part 2 of an interview given by Archbishop Mueller on just these two organizations:

"But it is important to remember that at no time in the history of the Church has a group or a movement in one country ever been successful when it has taken an attitude against Rome, when it has been “anti-Rome.” Setting oneself up against “Rome” has never brought authentic reform or renewal to the Church. Only through a renewed commitment to the full teaching of Christ and his Church, and through a renewed spirit of collaboration with the Holy Father and the bishops in communion with him, will there be renewal and new life in the Catholic Church and a new evangelization of our society. Preaching the Gospel of Christ to a weary world so desperately in need of its liberating truth — this must be our priority."

Read more: ncregister.com/daily-news/archbishop-mueller-on-the-sspx-and-his-controversial-writings/#ixzz2DOq6jX4d

 

[JReducation]

sspx.org/sspx_and_rome/bishop_fellay_econe_sermon_11-9-2012.htm

Bishop Fellay’s response of 2012 NOV 09 as to why conditions given to SSPX are impossible.

In fairness, I have to say that I understand Bishop Fellay’s frustration. There are too many people making comments who should not be doing so. It has always stunned me that people feel the need to comment on everything. Someday, human beings will learn that silence is truly golden and learn to keep their mouths shut.

However, in fairness to the bishops and cardinals at the Vatican, they’re not the only ones who suffer from this ailment. All we have to do is look at this forum and see the number of people who feel that they have to make a comment about what is the right thing to do or the wrong thing do to, even when no one has asked them for their opinions.

We need to learn to state the facts dispassionately and reserve our opinions about the fact to ourselves unless they are asked of us. It’s funny, because I just had this conversation with one of our brothers. He seems to have the need to express an opinion on everything that happens in the Church and a need to know about everything that happens in the Church. As I told him, “Your opinion is not important. The Holy Father does not care what you and I think. He cares about what you and I do. Let’s limit ourselves to doing what he wants us to do and allow him to tell us what opinions we should have and not have.”

I think we need to be more blunt with more people or this kind of confusion and frustration is going to continue.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[godismyfather]

It is wrong for us to seperate ourselves from the pope and the vatican. Any one such as Protestants and others before who tried this, they have seperated themselves from true god. All Catholics should come together and we should stop this immature fight, we just make ourselves weak and more volunerable to all evil attacks! I rather stick to Vatican the pope and his teachings! It is too dangerous to act in such a childish way! [BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Dee_S]

In fairness, I have to say that I understand Bishop Fellay’s frustration. There are too many people making comments who should not be doing so. It has always stunned me that people feel the need to comment on everything. Someday, human beings will learn that silence is truly golden and learn to keep their mouths shut.

I think we need to be more blunt with more people or this kind of confusion and frustration is going to continue.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Not too sure what yr aiming at here Br JR I like it that this thread exists to share and discuss the subject from all perspectives.

Bishop Fellay is currently delivering a blend of the Nov 1 and Nov 11 sermons while he confers Confirmations in various parts of the world. His claim about hearing conflicting opinions from people within the Vatican - are just that.

If one takes a look at, (not only my previous posts which attempt to chronologically table the sequence of events) the information available from CNS as well as the official communiques from Rome and Ecclesia Dei, it is not difficult to conclude that Bishop Fellay’s claims are factually without foundation. Why he has succumbed to a particular type of confusion in this regard - is up for speculation.

The fact that in his interview on the General Chapter of the SSPX of July 16, Bishop Fellay outspokenly challenged and cast a slur on Archbishop Mueller - is/was not a good sign:
**DICI: What are your thoughts on the appointment of Archbishop Mueller as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith? **

       Bishop Fellay: It is           nobody’s secret that the former bishop of Regensburg, where our           seminary of Zaitzkofen is located, does not like us. After the           courageous action of Benedict XVI on our behalf, in 2009, he refused           to cooperate and treated us like as if we were lepers! He is the one who           stated that our seminary should be closed and that our students should           go to the seminaries of their dioceses of origin, adding bluntly that           “*the four bishops of the SSPX           should resign*”! (*cf*.           interview with *Zeit           Online*, 8 May 2009).

"For us what is more important and more alarming is his leading role at the head of the Congregation for the Faith, which must defend the Faith with the proper mission of fighting doctrinal errors and heresy. Numerous writings of Bishop Mueller on the real transubstantiation of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, on the dogma of Our Lady’s virginity, on the need of conversion of non-Catholics to the Catholic Church… are questionable, to say the least! There is no doubt that these texts would have been in the past the object of an intervention of the Holy Office, which now is the very Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith presided by him. "
sspx.org/superior_generals_news/bishop_fellay_2012_general_chapter_interview_7-16-2012.htm

Include the other fact that he permits articles on SSPX websites that denigrate the good Archbishop…it kind of sets the scene for what is taking place right now.
“While the bishop might have good intentions, we cannot ignore the fact that many of his public statements have been irreconcilable with traditional Catholic teaching.”
Very controversial statements might be found in his works as denounced by the SSPX German District.
sspx.org/miscellaneous/mulling_over_archbishop_mueller_7-9-2012.htm

Further to this - his denial that he asked Rome for more time to consider their official reply
“Not long ago, we had a position statement from the President of * Ecclesia Dei*, who is at the same time the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, asserting that the discussions with the Society were over.(The Archbishop did not say “they were over”, he said that “there would be no more talks”) And last Saturday, a new declaration from the * Ecclesia Dei* says: “No, we must allow them some time; it is understandable that after thirty years of debate they should need a certain amount of time; we do see that they have an ardent desire to be reconciled.” I have the impression that they have it more than we do. And we wonder: what is happening?” Bishop Fellay

• is simply refuted by the Declaration from Ecclesia Dei of October 29 where it is stated that he asked for more time.
  “The Pontifical Commission ‘Ecclesia Dei’ takes this occasion to announce that, in its most recent official communication (6 September 2012),** the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X has indicated that additional time for reflection and study is needed on their part** as they prepare their response to the Holy See’s latest initiatives.”
  visnews-en.blogspot.com/2012/10/declaration-of-pontifical-commission_29.html

 

[godismyfather]

Thank you for writing back. I may be new here but I have been reading a lot about this subject. It all started from the second Vatican Council. If you only like Pope Jean Paul the second then he too was with the Vatican council. All and every post I see by any one of your groups is all your expressions against the vatican. Vatican will stand and will continue its responsabilities till the end and nothing will defeat it you want it or not! I consider myself Cathoic period. I do not say I belong to this catholic but not that group of catholics. I like this pope and this vatican but not that pope …I am catholic and there is nothing that can seperate me from my leader and my Vatican. No one is perfect and there has been priests and religious people who failed their jobs but Vatican is the main and the head leader of all of us. Jean Paul the second when he was alive you too showed him some problems. Vatican has to invite every one and you are not exluded but please do not betray your leader over some disagreements. We are all together and we all have to work hard to gether to become stronger in this troublesome world. You can not continue to persecute the pope and the vatican so much. We need the house of St Peter for the correct guidance. We should all come together. It sadden so many ordinary good catholics to see so many of good people, god loving wonderful people like you fighting with each other like this. There are so many who want to see us fight with each other and be destroyed. I know you have done so many good things and you are very right on so many issues and subjects but stil we have to stick to gether. Thank you for your reply. I will pray that the holy spirit guide us all to our Lord. We are not different from each other. God bless

 

[SuperTrad]

This makes no sense. *Christ *said that the Church - lead by the Holy Spirit - could not err and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. How does the Bishop believe that the Pope is truly going to say that the Mass, which the Pope declared as the Ordinary Form is bad, or that Vatican II, which has brought forth truly wonderful things, is in error??

The Church with a capital C cannot err. But wide swathes of its membership can go badly astray. There’s a weird sense that “anything after 1970 is infallible (except when we don’t want it to be)”.

If ‘The Church’ can do no wrong, then we wouldn’t have had heresies. I tell you now, creeping infallibility is very dangerous and will be used as another stick to beat the Church with.

There are legitimate criticisms of modern(ist) sections of Church. The greatest rebuke to them is its current state. Perhaps it will only be when their own parish closes or they have mass every other Sunday that the cheerleaders for the New Springtime will admit that we went badly wrong somewhere.

 

[godismyfather]

You blame Vatican and our pope repeadetely for committing sins right? But do you know how many Franciscans priests, nuns monks have broken the laws and have committed mortal sins? examples: in Medugorjia, the priest who have promoted the visioners, he slept with a nun and have empregnanted a nun and he had to leave the church. I have heard of Secular Franciscans, if you blame the vatican and our pope for cooporating with Obama and our hospitals are turning secular because of our pope ( I read it on one of your posts here) Then how come we have secular Franciscan priests then? Pope have recently wrote a letter to Obama cricizing him about his totalitarian power over catholics, wanting to control the catholic hospitals and schools etc…
I have heard it was a franciscan priest, he was an ex FBI agent, an esoteric who practiced witchcrafts and astrology,…why can not you look into francicsan friars and see how many laws have not they broken so far?! When it comes to breaking the laws of god, I think Vatican is less guilty then the rest of us here! Committement and loyality to pope and the house of god is not a sin but faithfulness to a group of friends is, it is considered more like a cult

 

[Aramis]

In fairness, I have to say that I understand Bishop Fellay’s frustration.

If he is writing sermons about the relationship with Rome, and doing so in frustration, it speaks ill of his homiletics instruction.

sspx.org/sspx_and_rome/bishop_fellay_econe_sermon_11-9-2012.htm certainly looks like a course being charted toward schism. It certainly seems to indicate a rejection of the magisterium. It’s very apparently an outright rejection of unity with Rome on Rome’s terms.

He’s clearly placed the SSPX above the council, if the text is accurate.

 

[godismyfather]

Yes but how come some of you have chosen a new pope for yourselves? You should no longer be called Catholics if you do not belong to the vatican and do not accept the pope benedict then you shold no longer be called catholics! Do not you look like the protestants angelicans and so many other christians who have declared themselves seperated from the Vatican few centuries ago!???

 

[Dee_S]

The fact that in his interview on the General Chapter of the SSPX of July 16, Bishop Fellay outspokenly challenged and cast a slur on Archbishop Mueller - is/was not a good sign:

**DICI: What are your thoughts on the appointment of Archbishop Mueller as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith? **…

"For us what is more important and more alarming is his leading role at the head of the Congregation for the Faith, which must defend the Faith with the proper mission of fighting doctrinal errors and heresy. Numerous writings of Bishop Mueller on the real transubstantiation of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, on the dogma of Our Lady’s virginity, on the need of conversion of non-Catholics to the Catholic Church… are questionable, to say the least! There is no doubt that these texts would have been in the past the object of an intervention of the Holy Office, which now is the very Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith presided by him. "
sspx.org/superior_generals_news/bishop_fellay_2012_general_chapter_interview_7-16-2012.htm

Include the other fact that he permits articles on SSPX websites that denigrate the good Archbishop…it kind of sets the scene for what is taking place right now.
“While the bishop might have good intentions, we cannot ignore the fact that many of his public statements have been irreconcilable with traditional Catholic teaching.”
Very controversial statements might be found in his works as denounced by the SSPX German District.
sspx.org/miscellaneous/mulling_over_archbishop_mueller_7-9-2012.htm

This article from catholic sensibility highlights just how quickly reputations are made and lost & confusion sown. I agree with Br JR :thumbsup:that it is best for some to keep their mouths firmly closed, instead of adding their odd opinions into the mix, especially reporters who we should be able to depend on for the facts!

"From the Religion News Service, this transcribed interview of new CDF head Archbishop Müller with the Mittelbayerische Zeitung. (Cathcon, however, doesn’t provide links to the original. I would love to check the translation in a language I actually know.) They quiz him on the sticking points with conservatives: liberation theology, the SSPX, and the perception that he is a liberal. His response to the latter probe is hilarious, especially the Cathcon commentary:You have been declared, in respect of such words, to be among the liberals. Did that surprise you?
Oh well. Saint Thomas Aquinas says, “Deus maxime liberalis est – God is the Greatest Liberal”. (Cathcon- normally translated as “God therefore is in the highest degree liberal” to ensure that there is no conflation of the ideas of liberality with the practice of liberalism in any sense). In the original sense is liberalis is liberally and generously. ” In this sense, I love being a liberal.
(Cathcon- one waits for years for the Head of the CDF to quote St Thomas and he is now used in such a poor way)
I wish they’d let the man finish his thought before they interrupt him with commentary.
**Chuckle on this one, too:**The SSPX have just designated you again as a heretic, that is, as one who has fallen from the faith.
I must not give an answer to every stupidity. (Cathcon- imagine what the response had been if the SSPX had issued a press release calling the Archbishop dumb. Mutual respect is needed for dialogue, as the Vatican is only too quick to point out in other ecumenical dialogues).
Cathcon’s headline is “Head of CDF calls SSPX stupid …”
I should point out that what Archbishop Müller has done is to identify the designation as a heretic as a “stupidity.” Reading comprehension is not the strong suit of some Catholics.
catholicsensibility.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/archbishop-muller-on-liberals-stupidity/

 

[Faithdancer]

 

[Thomas_Casey]

MODERATOR NOTICE

Attacking a religious order, spreading gossip and scandal, and attacking other Catholics is not acceptable behavior. Some people have been suspended and bans will follow.

 

[Rich_C]

Originally Posted by Faithdancer
In his interview with the National Catholic Register as reported early last month, Archbishop Muller (sorry, can’t type the umlaut) states: “The SSPX is not the only breakaway group in the Church. There are worse ones on the opposite side, too. These movements are worse because they are often denying essentials of Christianity.”

If this translation is accurate, the Abp said “breakaway group *in *the Church.” All those groups you mentioned are outside the Church. If you read certain Catholic newspapers online that hold opinions conflicting with Rome, you’ll find articles about all kinds of self-described Catholic organizations spouting error boldly in their mission statement. I think these are the kind of groups to which +Muller is referring.

 

[Rich_C]

In his interview with the National Catholic Register as reported early last month, Archbishop Muller (sorry, can’t type the umlaut) states: “The SSPX is not the only breakaway group in the Church. There are worse ones on the opposite side, too. These movements are worse because they are often denying essentials of Christianity.”

My bold. It’s a small point, and I am no SSPXer, but it is very heartening to me to see Archbishop Muller give this evaluation of the situation.

On either side of the Church’s position, which I assume is wise (who am I to judge?), there are Catholics allied to the world who attack Her from the inside with all their might, and on the other hand, Catholics who cut off their nose to spite their face in an attempt to defeat the first group. I see the SSPX as part of the latter type, and I’m glad to read that the Church sees the first group as the real threat, even though it seems to do more to punish the latter.

 

[pnewton]

The greatest rebuke to them is its current state. Perhaps it will only be when their own parish closes or they have mass every other Sunday that the cheerleaders for the New Springtime will admit that we went badly wrong somewhere.

Hmm. But the Church is doing pretty well across the world and in my neck of the woods. The Springtime is aflourish. I don’t believe all this doom and gloom talk. I guess this is a pessimist/optimist thing. It is a good thing that Hope is a theological virtue and not Gloominess.

 

[Faithdancer]

Hmm. But the Church is doing pretty well across the world and in my neck of the woods. The Springtime is aflourish. I don’t believe all this doom and gloom talk. I guess this is a pessimist/optimist thing. It is a good thing that Hope is a theological virtue and not Gloominess.

pnewton, I know you didn’t just come out of a coma. How are the election results- Obama, same sex “marriage” a cause for great optimism? I’m not saying we should be pessimistic- we should always keep hope. But the fact that more than half of Catholic voters voted against the teachings of the Church might be a cause for concern.

 

[pnewton]

pnewton, I know you didn’t just come out of a coma. How are the election results- Obama, same sex “marriage” a cause for great optimism? I’m not saying we should be pessimistic- we should always keep hope. But the fact that more than half of Catholic voters voted against the teachings of the Church might be a cause for concern.

I was speaking of the Church, not our parochial issues. We forget here in the States that the Church is bigger than our country. The Church is above politics and can thrive even in an immoral environment such as America or the Roman Empire.

 

[Faithdancer]

My bold. It’s a small point, and I am no SSPXer, but it is very heartening to me to see Archbishop Muller give this evaluation of the situation.

On either side of the Church’s position, which I assume is wise (who am I to judge?), there are Catholics allied to the world who attack Her from the inside with all their might, and on the other hand, Catholics who cut off their nose to spite their face in an attempt to defeat the first group. I see the SSPX as part of the latter type, and I’m glad to read that the Church sees the first group as the real threat, even though it seems to do more to punish the latter.

He clearly says that the groups on the opposite side (of SSPX) are worse, and he says why, though without specific elaboration. Despite their issues, I don’t think anyone can say SSPX denies the fundamental dogmas of the sacraments, the Trinity, the hypostasis in Christ, the perpetual virginity of Mary, her Assumption, the filioque, etc. etc. Then of course their are the Church moral teachings on abortion, same sex “marriage,” euthanasia, etc which I would imagine SSPX would avidly support.

I’m not promoting SSPX here- just figuring why Archbishop Muller might see a greater threat coming from dissenters within the Church, on the left. I suspect, though he didn’t clarify, that it is obstinate dissent against or ignoring of the moral teachings of the Church that is the most urgent concern at present- though I’m just speculating.