P
poche
Guest
Let us pray for apositive result
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J
JReducation
Guest
Today, on the Feast of St. Therese, let us commend the SSPX to her intercession. Theres was a faithful daughter of the Church, always obedient and trusting in God’s care. The best lesson that she has for all of us is her simple way. We do not need to reform the Church or the world. We can earn heaven for us and for souls by doing the simple things with great love.
Let us pray that all will put aside their grandiose desires to change the world and the Church and take charge of the little things before them, but with great love and humility.
Such actions changes hearts and restores faith.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
Let us pray that all will put aside their grandiose desires to change the world and the Church and take charge of the little things before them, but with great love and humility.
Such actions changes hearts and restores faith.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
C
Cristiano
Guest
Sometimes I wonder if the SSPX has to go through what the Jews went through when they were wondering across the desert for forty years. Maybe only a future generation of SSPX priests and bishops will come back into full communion after all the older generations are dead.
J
JReducation
Guest
No, God forbid that there be a future generation of bishops. If they ordain another bishop without a papal mandate, they’re history.
Pray that these will be their last bishops.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
C
Cristiano
Guest
I completely agree that the ordination of new bishops will spell disaster; however, I am afraid that it will happen and it will happen whether the SSPX will split in smaller groups or not. I am afraid but confident the Williamson will ordain one more bishop any way, just to ensure his way of thinking. If that happens within the SSPX then the damage could be more limited than having a completely independent bishop outside the SSPX. Today I am not very optimistic about the whole speedy resolution, I hope that tomorrow I will feel differently.No, God forbid that there be a future generation of bishops. If they ordain another bishop without a papal mandate, they’re history.
Pray that these will be their last bishops.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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Faithdancer
Guest
I am not well versed in canon law- my graduate effort is in Scripture, which is relatively straightforward(!)- and will have to spend some time digesting the the posts here. However, I share in this general good will directed toward a complete reconciliation. I’ve been planning on attending an SSPX Chapel in my area soon, I just have to make sure I attend a diocesan Mass the same day to fulfill my Sunday obligation (we also have one parish that offers the TLM in our diocese, btw).
I’m wondering, though, what can be done, if anything, on a grass roots level to enhance the effort toward reconciliation?
I’m wondering, though, what can be done, if anything, on a grass roots level to enhance the effort toward reconciliation?
J
JReducation
Guest
Of course it is. I’ll give you an example. There is a chapel (a little big for a chapel) near where I live. I’ve been there twice, once for a funeral and once for a First Holy Communion. Both times I received a horrible welcome from the laity there. The first time, I thought I was not going to be allowed in, because I had my tab in my pocket rather than inside my collar. The second time I wore my habit instead of a collar, but I arrived late. I had to take the bus.
However, the second time, the priest who celebrated the First Communion mass preached a very beautiful homily. After mass I reach out to him and mentioned how much I liked his homily. That led to a longer conversation and I invited him to visit our community house. Long story short, I met him again at a soccer game and this time, we were within walking distance of our community house and I invited him again. He came over. Since then, he has been over several times and we have a good relationship.
This is what is needed, kindness, friendliness and finding things that we have in common. For example, Father and I love soccer. We disagree on the spelling of the letter “A”. But we love soccer. We also enjoy systematic theology. It turns out that he’s well versed in St. Thomas, but knows zero, nothing, nada about St. Bonaventure. I, on the other hand, had a lot of Thomas in every course and four years of Bonaventure. He’s interested in Bonnie.
If you find something that you have in common with a person from that community, that’s the place to start. St. Francis always said that one begins with the heart, not the head. The head will follow where the heart leads.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
F
Faithdancer
Guest
After reading your story I’m more curious than ever to visit a Chapel. Of course, I won’t be wearing a collar or a habit- it sounds like that may have startled the SSPX congregation?Of course it is. I’ll give you an example. There is a chapel (a little big for a chapel) near where I live. I’ve been there twice, once for a funeral and once for a First Holy Communion. Both times I received a horrible welcome from the laity there. The first time, I thought I was not going to be allowed in, because I had my tab in my pocket rather than inside my collar. The second time I wore my habit instead of a collar, but I arrived late. I had to take the bus.
However, the second time, the priest who celebrated the First Communion mass preached a very beautiful homily. After mass I reach out to him and mentioned how much I liked his homily. That led to a longer conversation and I invited him to visit our community house. Long story short, I met him again at a soccer game and this time, we were within walking distance of our community house and I invited him again. He came over. Since then, he has been over several times and we have a good relationship.
This is what is needed, kindness, friendliness and finding things that we have in common. For example, Father and I love soccer. We disagree on the spelling of the letter “A”. But we love soccer. We also enjoy systematic theology. It turns out that he’s well versed in St. Thomas, but knows zero, nothing, nada about St. Bonaventure. I, on the other hand, had a lot of Thomas in every course and four years of Bonaventure. He’s interested in Bonnie.
If you find something that you have in common with a person from that community, that’s the place to start. St. Francis always said that one begins with the heart, not the head. The head will follow where the heart leads.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
Well, I’ll see what reception I get and report back. As technically a diocesan employee- I’m a parish youth ministry coordinator, hired and paid by the diocese- I don’t want to jeopardize my position in any way, but I don’t think that attending SSPX masses would do so, as long as I don’t get a rebellious spirit and always fulfill my obligations to our parishioners, the diocese and the Magisterium. Parenthetically I’m actually more worried about getting a “Protestant spirit” in some of the masses I’ve attended in Southern California.btw I looked over your community’s website and I can only say I wish there were something like it out here, particularly something that emphasizes traditional or “orthodox” Catholicism. I do love the Franciscan spirituality, all spiritualities actually, but in our general area there doesn’t seem to be anything for celibate men over 40 or 50 who want a deeper commitment than a once a month secular association.
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Nancita2009
Guest
Please explain in a simple way, what is going on with SSPX. My mom wanted me to go with her to a SSPX church in Ft. Worth, TX . I mentioned to her that I “heard” they weren’t valid, but she explained that there is so much liturgical abuse (i agree) everywhere, that this is the only place she feels like she has been to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. HELP!!
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Cider
Guest
From the Vatican Oct 17th 2012
press.catholica.va/news_services/bulletin/news/29911.php?index=29911&lang=en#TESTO%20IN%20LINGUA%20INGLESE
The Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” takes this occasion to announce that, in its most recent official communication (6 September 2012), the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X has indicated that additional time for reflection and study is needed on their part as they prepare their response to the Holy See’s latest initiatives.
The current stage in the ongoing discussions between the Holy See and the Priestly Fraternity follows three years of doctrinal and theological dialogues during which a joint commission met eight times to study and discuss, among other matters, some disputed issues in the interpretation of certain documents of Vatican Council II. Once these doctrinal dialogues were concluded, it became possible to proceed to a phase of discussion more directly focused on the greatly desired reconciliation of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X with the See of Peter.
Other critical steps in this positive process of gradual reintegration had already been taken by the Holy See in 2007 with the extension of the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite to the Universal Church by the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum and in 2009 with the lifting of the excommunications. Just a few months ago, a culminating point along this difficult path was reached when, on 13 June 2012, the Pontifical Commission presented to the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X a doctrinal declaration together with a proposal for the canonical normalization of its status within the Catholic Church.
At the present time, the Holy See is awaiting the official response of the superiors of the Priestly Fraternity to these two documents. After thirty years of separation, it is understandable that time is needed to absorb the significance of these recent developments. As Our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI seeks to foster and preserve the unity of the Church by realizing the long hoped-for reconciliation of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X with the See of Peter – a dramatic manifestation of the munus Petrinum in action – patience, serenity, perseverance and trust are needed.
[01402-02.01] [Original text: English]
press.catholica.va/news_services/bulletin/news/29911.php?index=29911&lang=en#TESTO%20IN%20LINGUA%20INGLESE
The Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” takes this occasion to announce that, in its most recent official communication (6 September 2012), the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X has indicated that additional time for reflection and study is needed on their part as they prepare their response to the Holy See’s latest initiatives.
The current stage in the ongoing discussions between the Holy See and the Priestly Fraternity follows three years of doctrinal and theological dialogues during which a joint commission met eight times to study and discuss, among other matters, some disputed issues in the interpretation of certain documents of Vatican Council II. Once these doctrinal dialogues were concluded, it became possible to proceed to a phase of discussion more directly focused on the greatly desired reconciliation of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X with the See of Peter.
Other critical steps in this positive process of gradual reintegration had already been taken by the Holy See in 2007 with the extension of the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite to the Universal Church by the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum and in 2009 with the lifting of the excommunications. Just a few months ago, a culminating point along this difficult path was reached when, on 13 June 2012, the Pontifical Commission presented to the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X a doctrinal declaration together with a proposal for the canonical normalization of its status within the Catholic Church.
At the present time, the Holy See is awaiting the official response of the superiors of the Priestly Fraternity to these two documents. After thirty years of separation, it is understandable that time is needed to absorb the significance of these recent developments. As Our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI seeks to foster and preserve the unity of the Church by realizing the long hoped-for reconciliation of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X with the See of Peter – a dramatic manifestation of the munus Petrinum in action – patience, serenity, perseverance and trust are needed.
[01402-02.01] [Original text: English]
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JM3
Guest
From what I understand, The SSPX Mass is valid, but illicit. We are not to support the SSPX in any way, so I would suggest going here: fssp.com/press/locations/diocese-of-forth-worth-texas/
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JReducation
Guest
Their celebration of the mass is valid. They are validly ordained priests. However, since all of them are suspended priests, they have no legal authority to celebrate the mass. This makes the celebration illegal or illicit.
Some people blow off the issue of liceity. That should not be the case. You can’t just blow off the law. There is only one law giver in the Church, that is Christ. The law which Christ gives resides in the heart of Peter. Therefore, whatever Peter says is the law is what we follow.
The law is not always protected by infallibility. It depends on what the law is discussing. Finances are one thing and morals are another. However, the law is protected by the authority given to Peter and the Apostles in communion with Peter to bind and unbind.
If Peter says that the SSPX has no canonical place in the Church, he has the authority to say this, even if taking away the canonical standings is not a good idea, the law is the law. The law is not about what is or is not a good idea. It’s about the authority of Peter to govern.
When Peter says that they have no canonical place and that their priests are suspended indefinitely until this problem is resolved, then any attempt to celebrate the sacraments is illegal, hence another layer of disobedience.
We cannot judge their conscience. Only God knows what they’re thinking and how sincere they are. We are to make our judgment using the law, not passing judgment on another person. That is never acceptable.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
Some people blow off the issue of liceity. That should not be the case. You can’t just blow off the law. There is only one law giver in the Church, that is Christ. The law which Christ gives resides in the heart of Peter. Therefore, whatever Peter says is the law is what we follow.
The law is not always protected by infallibility. It depends on what the law is discussing. Finances are one thing and morals are another. However, the law is protected by the authority given to Peter and the Apostles in communion with Peter to bind and unbind.
If Peter says that the SSPX has no canonical place in the Church, he has the authority to say this, even if taking away the canonical standings is not a good idea, the law is the law. The law is not about what is or is not a good idea. It’s about the authority of Peter to govern.
When Peter says that they have no canonical place and that their priests are suspended indefinitely until this problem is resolved, then any attempt to celebrate the sacraments is illegal, hence another layer of disobedience.
We cannot judge their conscience. Only God knows what they’re thinking and how sincere they are. We are to make our judgment using the law, not passing judgment on another person. That is never acceptable.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
J
JM3
Guest
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.htmlTherefore, whatever Peter says is the law is what we follow.
The law is not always protected by infallibility. It depends on what the law is discussing. Finances are one thing and morals are another. However, the law is protected by the authority given to Peter and the Apostles in communion with Peter to bind and unbind.
If Peter says that the SSPX has no canonical place in the Church, he has the authority to say this, even if taking away the canonical standings is not a good idea, the law is the law. The law is not about what is or is not a good idea. It’s about the authority of Peter to govern.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
Br. JR,
I have not found anything from Pope Benedict XVI, since the lifting of the excommunications, that would indicate a change to this quoted section. Am I correct in assuming that it is still ‘in force’?
M
Mike30
Guest
But what effect would attending such a Mass have on the laity? I would assume that the offending Priest would incur some form of canonical penalty for illegally celebrating such a Mass but would the laity as well?. That puzzles me. I am not referring to those who attend with a schismatic mentality but to the average person who goes through curiosity or unavailability of the Traditional Mass in their area, and we know there are still vast areas where it is unavailable, or for some other reasons such as when you attended…Their celebration of the mass is valid. They are validly ordained priests. However, since all of them are suspended priests, they have no legal authority to celebrate the mass. This makes the celebration illegal or illicit.
Some people blow off the issue of liceity. That should not be the case. You can’t just blow off the law. There is only one law giver in the Church, that is Christ. The law which Christ gives resides in the heart of Peter. Therefore, whatever Peter says is the law is what we follow.
The law is not always protected by infallibility. It depends on what the law is discussing. Finances are one thing and morals are another. However, the law is protected by the authority given to Peter and the Apostles in communion with Peter to bind and unbind.
If Peter says that the SSPX has no canonical place in the Church, he has the authority to say this, even if taking away the canonical standings is not a good idea, the law is the law. The law is not about what is or is not a good idea. It’s about the authority of Peter to govern.
When Peter says that they have no canonical place and that their priests are suspended indefinitely until this problem is resolved, then any attempt to celebrate the sacraments is illegal, hence another layer of disobedience.
We cannot judge their conscience. Only God knows what they’re thinking and how sincere they are. We are to make our judgment using the law, not passing judgment on another person. That is never acceptable.
Fraternally
Br. JR, FFV
I ask you specifically as you seem to speak with knowledge and logic as opposed to the raw emotionalism that so many on this forum flavor their answers concerning the SSPX with.
J
JReducation
Guest
This is still in force, because this is canon law. Any adherence to a schismatic mentality carries an automatic excommunication.
Roman Law, unlike English Law, is also very reasonable. In English Law, “ignorance of the law is no excuse.” The opposite is true in Roman Law. Ignorance of the law does mitigate culpability or even eliminate completely. That is to say that a person who does not know that law cannot incur an excommunication.
Secondly, the excommunication is the result of the schismatic mindset. This must be very clear. You cannot be excommunicated for attending mass, even in an Othodox Church. The mass is always sacred. You are excommunicated if you knowingly do what the Church prohibits, because you believe that you’re right and the Church is wrong. That’s a schismatic mindset. You’re setting yourself up against the Church as her equal or maybe as her judge.
The rule is quite simple. The suspended priest who knowingly celebrates the mass is objectively in a state of grave sin. I say objectively, because we can only speak about what can be seen. What is that? The priest is suspended. He is celebrating mass. The law says that a suspended priest may not celebrate a mass, especially not in public. Therefore, the priest is violating a very serious law. The sin is proportionate to the gravity of the law. This is what we can see. We cannot see what is in the heart and mind of the individual nor should anyone ever try to second-guess what is in another person’s hear and mind. Unfortunately, we do this a lot in Christianity.
In the case of the layperson in the pew, the law is similar. The mass is being celebrated illegally. We can see this. We are there knowing that it’s illegal.
Here is where the conditions will determine whether we are objectively sinning or not.
Condition A:
I don’t care about liceity. It’s not a big deal. As long as the mass is valid. OBJECTIVELY SINFUL
The TLM is a holier mass than the NO; therefore, I’m going. OBJECTIVELY SINFUL
The NO is Modernist or Protestant; therefore, I’m not going. If I can’t go to the TLM, I’d rather stay home. OBJECTIVELY SINFUL
Condition B:
I accept that the OF and the EF are both sacred and holy; but the EF nurtures my spiritual life in a way that the OF does not. NOT A SIN
If we had an EF mass in our diocese or within reasonable distance, I would attend that instead of the SSPX. NOT A SIN
I didn’t know that Father was sinning by celebrating the TLM. I’ve always been told that it’s valid. NOT A SIN
As you can see, the difference between condition A and condition B is the attitude. Whether you attend the EF at an FSSP church or an SSPX chapel, you are objectively sinning with any of those attitudes in Set A. The attitude is that you know better than the Church. The Church has said that both forms of the mass are equally holy and equally efficacious. The Church has said that the problems in the OF are not the form or that is looks more like a Protestant service than a TLM. The problem is that people get creative rather than follow the rubrics. You’ve added a layer that the Church has not added. You’ve made yourself out to be a parallel authority over the mass.
In Set B, there is room for doubt about the sinfulness. There is the absence of defiance. There does not seem to be a judgment against the OF. The judgment is about what nurtures me. This is going to be very personal. I’m a Franciscan, because Franciscan spirituality nurtures me more than Dominican spirituality. My being a Franciscan is not a statement against the Dominican school. I accept St. Dominic as my spiritual father and I accept the Dominican path as equally efficacious as the Franciscan path. This is what the person in Set B is saying.
In addition the person in Set B would be willing to attend a licit EF, if it were available. The person was told by the priest or some layperson whom he trusts, that the priests at the SSPX chapel are not really in trouble, because the Church’s action were invalid and unjust, as if the faithful (clergy or lay) have the authority to tell holder of the keys what he has and does not have a right to do with the law. The person is truly ignorant of the facts.
J
JReducation
Guest
Despite this, I would strongly caution those in group be against attending the mass at the SSPX chapel for a number of reasons.
To conclude, one can attend a mass at the SSPX chapel for very honorable reasons, provided that one is very attentive to the negatives so as to avoid contamination. The man who is inattentive to the dangers and walks through the fire is a fool. The wise man is attentive to the dangers and will get to the other side by walking around the fire.
Be like the wise man. If you must attend the EF at the SSPX chapel, avoid too much involvement with the angry members in that community. Walk around the fire.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
- When someone is violating the law, you don’t encourage them. That’s like the child who plays with the electric outlet and Mommy cheers because the child was so smart that he figured out how to take off the plastic covering. How smart is that? If something happens to the child, is the child solely at fault or does the mother share the fault?
- When one is in a group of very passionate people, whose passions have blinded them to the point that they elevate an Archbishop who died excommunicated to the point of veneration and they minimize or even demonize people like Bl. John XXIII, Bl. Teresa of Calcutta, and Bl. John Paul II, there is something seriously wrong in this group. The excommunicated is venerate and the beatified are downplayed. This group has become its own Congregation for the Causes of Saints. Until recently there was only one such congregation and it was ruled by the reigning pope.
- When one is in a group where there are so many people who are filled with hatred toward Rome, the Pontiff or those who run the Church: bishops, religious superiors, cardinals, etc, there is something wrong within that group.
To conclude, one can attend a mass at the SSPX chapel for very honorable reasons, provided that one is very attentive to the negatives so as to avoid contamination. The man who is inattentive to the dangers and walks through the fire is a fool. The wise man is attentive to the dangers and will get to the other side by walking around the fire.
Be like the wise man. If you must attend the EF at the SSPX chapel, avoid too much involvement with the angry members in that community. Walk around the fire.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
J
JM3
Guest
Thank you, Br. JR.Walk around the fire.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
L
Lormar
Guest
You have spoken the truth. That is exactly how it is. And I will add one more - you really have no idea how it messes up correct Catholic thinking. It is something that is imbibed just by being there for any extended period of time without even realizing it. It is a slippery slope. And one that is very hard to get back up without continuously sliding back.Despite this, I would strongly caution those in group be against attending the mass at the SSPX chapel for a number of reasons.
In all of these situations, there is a infectious bacteria. Things are growing beyond a love for the ancient form of the mass to a growing antagonism toward the institutional Church. Infections can be contagious.
- When someone is violating the law, you don’t encourage them. That’s like the child who plays with the electric outlet and Mommy cheers because the child was so smart that he figured out how to take off the plastic covering. How smart is that? If something happens to the child, is the child solely at fault or does the mother share the fault?
- When one is in a group of very passionate people, whose passions have blinded them to the point that they elevate an Archbishop who died excommunicated to the point of veneration and they minimize or even demonize people like Bl. John XXIII, Bl. Teresa of Calcutta, and Bl. John Paul II, there is something seriously wrong in this group. The excommunicated is venerate and the beatified are downplayed. This group has become its own Congregation for the Causes of Saints. Until recently there was only one such congregation and it was ruled by the reigning pope.
- When one is in a group where there are so many people who are filled with hatred toward Rome, the Pontiff or those who run the Church: bishops, religious superiors, cardinals, etc, there is something wrong within that group.
To conclude, one can attend a mass at the SSPX chapel for very honorable reasons, provided that one is very attentive to the negatives so as to avoid contamination. The man who is inattentive to the dangers and walks through the fire is a fool. The wise man is attentive to the dangers and will get to the other side by walking around the fire.
Be like the wise man. If you must attend the EF at the SSPX chapel, avoid too much involvement with the angry members in that community. Walk around the fire.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
I would avoid it them all together until they return to the Church. It’s too risky and no one is immune from contagion.
Let he who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
M
Mike30
Guest
Thank you Brother. The situation makes much more sense now than before. I think I can see why you were elevated to Superior
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Walking_Home
Guest
I most certainly agree.
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