SSPX update?

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I’m not sure if you are referring to me here, but since I have been posting recently on this thread, I will respond from my point-of-view. I am not defending the SSPX from the Church. I am trying to point out to other posters on CAF that the situation is not as clear as it appears.
FYI - I do not know to which posters you wish to point this out, but the position of the SSPX and the Catholic Church is crystal clear to me. The justifications may vary, but the positions are clear. Sense I do not view the justifications as relevant to the position, they are irrelevant to me.
 
FYI - I do not know to which posters you wish to point this out, but the position of the SSPX and the Catholic Church is crystal clear to me. The justifications may vary, but the positions are clear. Sense I do not view the justifications as relevant to the position, they are irrelevant to me.
Newt makes the best point so far in this thread. If you choose to receive sacraments in a Society chapel, the position of the SSPX and the Catholic Church must be crystal clear to you or you will have no peace of soul. Likewise, the justification for holding that position is only relevant to that soul and is between that soul and Our Lord. Dont waste your time seeking affirmation from others.
 
Newt makes the best point so far in this thread. If you choose to receive sacraments in a Society chapel, the position of the SSPX and the Catholic Church must be crystal clear to you or you will have no peace of soul. Likewise, the justification for holding that position is only relevant to that soul and is between that soul and Our Lord. Dont waste your time seeking affirmation from others.
I am glad you posted this. I gave only my opinion. The last thing I would ever do is use this standard to judge another. Such this are, as they say, above my pay grade.
 
Time to go to work, planning out youth ministry catechism. Trust me when I say that my cathechetical efforts will always “err” on the side of conservative, orthodox Catholicism. No kid who comes out of youth group or Confirmation classes I teach will be confused about Catholic teachings on abortion, same sex “marriage,” experimentations/innovations in the Mass, etc. etc. They will be taught respect for the EF Mass, whether or not they’ve ever attended one (very few have). They will also be taught to have respect and tolerance for those who are currently not in full communion with Rome but are otherwise devoutly Catholic. And they will understand how to read and reference the Bible via chapter and verse, not page number (my current issue with some kids!).
I hope they will also be taught respect for the OF as well as the importance of obedience. I hope they will be taught about tolerance for those that on the other end of the spectrum then, as well. I hope they will be taught that none of this really comes down to personal preference, but comes down to recognizing the authority granted to the Supreme Pontiff by our Lord. I also hope that they will be taught not to be so worried about what everyone else is doing, but instead, spend their time focusing on their own actions, charity, and salvation.

At least, that is where I try to focus my children in Catechisms and the Youth Groups I teach. I try to get them to spend their time thinking introspectively about their own sins, not others. I try to focus them on loving God and loving their neighbor. The type of Mass they prefer to attend, so long as it is in accordance with the Church, is the LEAST of my concerns with our youth.
 
Thank you for your apology. Don’t ever apologize to me. Our constitutions say
**
“Let every brother remember that he is less than the garbage that is vomited from the mouth of a dog. He was put on earth to clean up the vomit. His only claim to dignity is a gift of grace, not of his own merit or worthiness. Therefore, he is the servant of all and master over his sinfulness and nothing more.”**

As superior general, I have a moral duty to try to live this in order to lead my brothers and others to the humility of the Crucified Christ.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Wait: I thought Franciscans didn’t know who Grace is… 😃
 
I hope they will also be taught respect for the OF as well as the importance of obedience. I hope they will be taught about tolerance for those that on the other end of the spectrum then, as well.
Since the Novus Ordo is the only Mass with which they are familiar (with few exceptions) I don’t see any issue there.

Not sure what you mean by “the other end of the spectrum.”
 
I think we need to be nuanced here, which you may be by using “tradition” with a lower-case t, but I still think a clarification is in order. The Popes do not get to decide what is Sacred Tradition anymore than they get to decide what is Sacred Scripture. The office of the Papacy is to defend, interpret, and transmit Sacred Tradition, not change it. By its very definition, Tradition cannot be changed. What Our Lord taught the Apostles is not subject to change.
Hi :(, just in case you are unaware, this is very much the ‘party line’ of the SSPX and is their repeated defense to justify and hold their “untenable” position. Here are some extracts from the Letter of Pope Paul VI to Archbishop Lefebvre in 1976, that make the point more clearly than we can:

“What is indeed at issue is the question - which must truly be called fundamental - of your clearly proclaimed refusal to recognize in its whole, the authority of the Second Vatican Council and that of the Pope. This refusal is accompanied by an action that is oriented towards propagating and organizing what must indeed, unfortunately, be called a rebellion. This is the essential issue, and it is truly un-tenable.”

“In regard to the Pope, every Catholic admits that the words of Jesus to Peter determine also the charge of Peter’s legitimate successors: “. . . whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven” (Mt. 16:19);…“The pastors of every rank and of every rite and the faithful, each separately and all together, are bound by the duty of hierarchical subordination and of true obedience, not only in questions of faith and morals, but also in those that touch upon the discipline and government of the church throughout the entire world. Thus, by preserving the unity of communion and of profession of faith with the Roman pontiff, the church is a single flock under one pastor.** Such is the doctrine of Catholic truth, from which no one can separate himself without danger for his faith and his salvation”** (Dogmatic Constitution Pastor Aeternus, Ch. 3, DZ 3060).”

“Each bishop is indeed an authentic teacher for preaching to the people entrusted to him that faith which must guide their thoughts and conduct and dispel the errors that menace the flock. But, by their nature,** “the charges of teaching and governing . . . cannot be exercised except in hierarchical communion with the head of the college and with its members” (Constitution Lumen Gentium, 21; cf. also 25).* A fortiori*, a single bishop without a canonical mission does not have in actu expedite ad agendum, the faculty of deciding in general what the rule of faith is or of determining what tradition is.”

“In practice you are claiming that you alone are the judge of what tradition embraces.”**

“You say that you are subject to the church and faithful to tradition by the sole fact that you obey certain norms of the past that were decreed by the predecessor of him to whom God has today conferred the powers given to Peter. That is to say, on this point also, the concept of “tradition” that you invoke is distorted.

“Tradition is not a rigid and dead notion, a fact of a certain static sort which at a given moment of history blocks the life of this active organism which is the church, that is, the mystical body of Christ.** It is up to the Pope and to councils to exercise judgment in order to discern in the traditions of the church that which cannot be renounced without infidelity to the Lord and to the Holy Spirit - the deposit of faith - and that which, on the contrary, can and must be adapted to facilitate the prayer and the mission of the church throughout a variety of times and places, in order better to translate the divine message into the language of today and better to communicate it, without an unwarranted surrender of principles.”**

**“Hence tradition is inseparable from the living magisterium of the church, just as it is inseparable from sacred scripture. “Sacred tradition, sacred scripture and the magisterium of the church . . . are so linked and joined together that one of these realities cannot exist without the others, and that all of them together, each in its own way, effectively contribute under the action of the Holy Spirit to the salvation of souls” **(Constitution Dei Verbum, 10).”

“With the special assistance of the Holy Spirit, the popes and the ecumenical councils have acted in this common way**…Nothing that was decreed in this Council, or in the reforms that we enacted in order to put the Council into effect, is opposed to what the 2,000-year-old tradition of the church considers as fundamental and immutable. We are the guarantor of this, not in virtue of Our personal qualities but in virtue of the charge which the Lord has conferred upon Us as legitimate successor of Peter**,…”

“You say moreover that you do not always see how to reconcile certain texts of the Council, or certain dispositions which We have enacted in order to put the Council into practice, with the wholesome tradition of the church…It is not the place, in this letter, to deal with each of these problems… Absolutely secure counsellors, theologians and spiritual directors would be able to help you even more, with God’s enlightenment, and We are ready to facilitate this fraternal assistance for you”

“But how can an interior personal difficulty - a spiritual drama which We respect - permit you to set yourself up publicly as a judge of what has been legitimately adopted, practically with unanimity, and knowingly to lead a portion of the faithful into your refusal?”
 
The Magisterium, do not “make” Tradition (with capital T). Yet, the Magisterium is the supreme interpreter of it with authority that we believe came from Christ himself.

Thus, case someone argue something is of Tradition or not and what its implication and meaning, the voice of the Magisterium should settle the whole thing down because the authority vested by Christ. All other interpretation must submit to this authority.

Well, SSPX challanged the Magisterium in this regard.
The consequences is obvious from Catholic framework:
Either the Magisterium is vacant (which assume the Pope and the whole body of Bishops in communion with him are somehow invalid/not exist/no longer Catholic), or the whole business of Magisterium is a big big big lie (which make the Protestants right, the Catholic Church a liar, or the gate of Hell does prevail).

Yet formal SSPX stance is confusing. While maintaining the current Magisterium is exist (the Pope is true Pope, the Bishops are true Bishops in communion with him), and will give everything to maintain that the Catholic Church teaching as true (the Church is not a liar), but feel content to reject the Magisterium interpretation of Tradition (which should be the last word for every Catholic).

This position is inconsistent at best, “untenable” as Pope Paul VI said.
 
Since the Novus Ordo is the only Mass with which they are familiar (with few exceptions) I don’t see any issue there.

Not sure what you mean by “the other end of the spectrum.”
Totally off topic I know, but I love your new religious description of “Sabretooth Catholic.” Made me smile 🙂 Can I use that sometime?
 
Totally off topic I know, but I love your new religious description of “Sabretooth Catholic.” Made me smile 🙂 Can I use that sometime?
Ha ha sure. I believe that “dire wolf Catholic” and Tyrannosaurus Catholic are also available…
 
Hi :(, just in case you are unaware, this is very much the ‘party line’ of the SSPX and is their repeated defense to justify and hold their “untenable” position. Here are some extracts from the Letter of Pope Paul VI to Archbishop Lefebvre in 1976, that make the point more clearly than we can:
Nothing I said contradicts what Pope Paul VI says. I’m not making any point as concerns Vatican II. I was simply saying that the Pope cannot change Sacred Tradition. It is immutable. Pope Paul VI agrees with me. From the letter you quoted:
“It is up to the Pope and to councils to exercise judgment in order to discern in the traditions of the church that which cannot be renounced without infidelity to the Lord and to the Holy Spirit - the deposit of faith - and that which, on the contrary, can and must be adapted to facilitate the prayer and the mission of the church throughout a variety of times and places, in order better to translate the divine message into the language of today and better to communicate it, without an unwarranted surrender of principles.”
See – there is Sacred Tradition which cannot be renounced. It is unchangeable and immutable. That was my point, and only my point. I am not an SSPX partisan. But I am also not blind to what was done to the Church in the name of or in the “spirit” of the Council. And I am also not blind to some deep problems that are in my diocese, especially involving orthodox teaching and proper liturgy. That was also my point.
  • PAX
 
The Magisterium, do not “make” Tradition (with capital T). Yet, the Magisterium is the supreme interpreter of it with authority that we believe came from Christ himself.

Thus, case someone argue something is of Tradition or not and what its implication and meaning, the voice of the Magisterium should settle the whole thing down because the authority vested by Christ. All other interpretation must submit to this authority.

Well, SSPX challanged the Magisterium in this regard.
The consequences is obvious from Catholic framework:
Either the Magisterium is vacant (which assume the Pope and the whole body of Bishops in communion with him are somehow invalid/not exist/no longer Catholic), or the whole business of Magisterium is a big big big lie (which make the Protestants right, the Catholic Church a liar, or the gate of Hell does prevail).

Yet formal SSPX stance is confusing. While maintaining the current Magisterium is exist (the Pope is true Pope, the Bishops are true Bishops in communion with him), and will give everything to maintain that the Catholic Church teaching as true (the Church is not a liar), but feel content to reject the Magisterium interpretation of Tradition (which should be the last word for every Catholic).

This position is inconsistent at best, “untenable” as Pope Paul VI said.
In reply EcceAgnusDei - I get your point all round. And I like the way Alfonsus puts it in a nutshell. I don’t make the effort to post here to ‘score’ off others or be contentious, believe it or not:rolleyes:, I just hope that the information I post is helpful to those who may be in need of it. It is untenable to think of the many sincere souls who are duped into believing that they are serving God and the Church better by being in a manner of speaking “outside of it” and feel that their salvation is in jeopardy within the Church.

It looks like the CDF is making certain facts known bit by bit…

Reading** Vatican II as break with tradition is heresy, prefect says**
Code:
By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Traditionalist and progressive camps that see the Second Vatican Council as breaking with the truth both espouse a “heretical interpretation” of the council and its aims, said the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

What Pope Benedict XVI has termed “the hermeneutic of reform, of renewal in continuity” is the “only possible interpretation according to the principles of Catholic theology,” Archbishop Gerhard Muller said in remarks published Nov. 29.

“Outside this sole orthodox interpretation unfortunately exists a heretical interpretation, that is, a hermeneutic of rupture, (found) both on the progressive front and on the traditionalist” side, the archbishop said.

What the two camps have in common, he said, is their rejection of the council: “the progressives in their wanting to leave it behind, as if it were a season to abandon in order to get to another church, and the traditionalists in their not wanting to get there,” seeing the council as a Catholic “winter.”

A “council presided over by the successor of Peter as head of the visible church” is the “highest expression” of the Magisterium, he said, to be regarded as part of “an indissoluble whole,” along with Scripture and 2,000 years of tradition.
 
A “council presided over by the successor of Peter as head of the visible church” is the “highest expression” of the Magisterium, he said, to be regarded as part of “an indissoluble whole,” along with Scripture and 2,000 years of tradition.
I believe that Archbishop Lefebvre would agree with the Cardinals statement. In February of 1966, the Archbishop informed his colleagues in the Coetus (which was an organization of 200+ of the most conservative council fathers) that he proposed to publish a “combative, multilingual interepiscopal bulletin of information and analysis which will help the bishops to take practical measures against progressivism and in favor of a sound interpretation of the Council”. He was encouraged in this effort by Cardinals Ottaviani and Siri. During the council meetings, where the Archbishop thought the council was flawed, he lodged a formal intervention, which was the appropriate protocol, and these interventions are part of the record.
 
I believe that Archbishop Lefebvre would agree with the Cardinals statement. In February of 1966, the Archbishop informed his colleagues in the Coetus (which was an organization of 200+ of the most conservative council fathers) that he proposed to publish a “combative, multilingual interepiscopal bulletin of information and analysis which will help the bishops to take practical measures against progressivism and in favor of a sound interpretation of the Council”. He was encouraged in this effort by Cardinals Ottaviani and Siri. During the council meetings, where the Archbishop thought the council was flawed, he lodged a formal intervention, which was the appropriate protocol, and these interventions are part of the record.
It’s a shame he didn’t stay within the Church. One can only imagine what good he might have accomplished.
 
It is untenable to think of the many sincere souls who are duped into believing that they are serving God and the Church better by being in a manner of speaking “outside of it” and feel that their salvation is in jeopardy within the Church.
Dee,

I find your statement about being ‘duped’ VERY offensive to me and also as it pertains to at least four current Bishops. Agree with them or not, you should show the same respect to them as you would show to any of the successors of the Apostles and Princes of the Church.
 
Dee,

I find your statement about being ‘duped’ VERY offensive to me and also as it pertains to at least four current Bishops. Agree with them or not, you should show the same respect to them as you would show to any of the successors of the Apostles and Princes of the Church.
I’m very sorry that you do, as I had no intention to offend you personally. I only noticed now that you put your religion as catholic-SSPX:o. I was only summarizing in my own words what Pope Paul VI had said directly to Archbishop Lefebvre of 1976:

"In practice you put yourself forward as the defender and spokesman of the faithful and of priests “torn apart by what is happening in the church,” thus giving the sad impression that the Catholic faith and the essential values of tradition are not sufficiently respected and lived in a portion of the people of God, at least in certain countries. But in your interpretations of the facts and in the particular role that you assign yourself, as well as in the way in which you accomplish this role, there is something that misleads the people of God and deceives souls of good will who are justly desirous of fidelity and of spiritual and apostolic progress. "

Similar statements have been said by many more holy & elevated persons than myself over the last 40 years. More than once, the Vatican and the Holy Father have had to caution Bishop Fellay & the organization for their sayings & doings in public. After Cardinal Ratzinger in 2001 had got an undertaking from them to sign a protocol to begin the reconciliation process, they went away, then came back to the Vatican, to tell them that the New Mass was ‘evil’ etc and being rather rude in their speech and manner. (I’m not going to source this, as it will be available if one searches the internet).

Take a close look at these 5 conditions which were insisted on by Rome/Ecclesia Dei.

Conditions resulting from the 4 june 2008 meeting between Dario Card. Castrillon Hoyos and Bishop Bernard Fellay (my bold):


  1. *]A commitment to a proportioned response to the generosity of the Pope.
    *]A commitment to avoid any public speech which does not respect the person of the Holy Father and which can be negative for ecclesial charity.
    *]A commitment to avoid the pretense of a Magisterium superior to the Holy Father and to not put forward the Fraternity [SSPX] in opposition to the Church.
    *]A commitment to demonstrate the will to behave honestly in full ecclesial charity and in respect to the authority of the Vicar of Christ.
    *]A commitment to respect the date – fixed at the end of the month of June – to respond positively. This will be a required and necessary condition for the immediate preparation for adhesion to have full communion.

    Perhaps you are right in that when discussing the ‘faults’ of these four Bishops or rather their *modus operandi *in the organization of the SSPX, it is likely that one does fall into disrespect by relating what they actual say and do:confused: That too, is not intentional.

    Bishop Williamson in his letter of December 8, 2012 answers 5 questions put to him by one of the lay people as to why Bishop Fellay did and said what he did in favor of a reconciliation with Rome. His answers show Bishop Fellay up in a very bad light. In the extract below the SG stands for Superior General/Bishop Fellay:

    “In conclusion, had the SSPX’s crisis of this spring and summer made me wonder about the competence and honesty of the SG and his HQ, I fear that after this explanation of five quotes, I would still be wondering. May God be with them, because they have a daunting responsibility”
    Kyrie eleison.
 
See – there is Sacred Tradition which cannot be renounced. It is unchangeable and immutable. That was my point, and only my point. I am not an SSPX partisan… And I am also not blind to some deep problems that are in my diocese, especially involving orthodox teaching and proper liturgy. That was also my point.
  • PAX
One thing the Church has definitely not done is contradict the deposit of Sacred Tradition. However Tradition can be change, if by change one means clarify, or move from one state to another. One such change was the defining of Transubsantiation. Another was the elevation of the Immaculate Conception to dogma. Both were changes, as in, something was different after the event than before. Neither contradicted Vatican II.
 
Wishing all every blessing on the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1028&pictureid=14165
Pope Saint Pius X’s Prayer to Our Lady of Guadalupe
Our Lady of Guadalupe,
Mystical Rose,
make intercession for the holy Church,
protect the Sovereign Pontiff,
help all those who invoke thee in their necessities,
and since thou art the ever Virgin Mary
and Mother of the true God,
obtain for us from thy most holy Son
the grace of keeping our faith,
sweet hope in the midst of the bitterness of life,
burning charity
and the precious gift of final perseverance.

Amen
 
Dee,

I find your statement about being ‘duped’ VERY offensive to me and also as it pertains to at least four current Bishops. Agree with them or not, you should show the same respect to them as you would show to any of the successors of the Apostles and Princes of the Church.
I reserve to them all respect and esteem I give to Arius.
 
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