SSPX update?

[Dee_S]

Dee, that was a very interesting exercise. Seeing his words intertwined like that makes you begin to wonder which position is what he really thinks. It may be that in the sermon he was trying to ‘rally the troops’, but it doesn’t seem like that train of thought is the best way to get them to the place he was trying to take the bishops in his letter this summer.

Sigh. Let’s all keep praying…

I agree, not the best way:thumbsup: and I sigh in unison…:banghead: well, not quite, but will keep on praying

 

[JReducation]

seeing as I have no habit to put on or off, this “anonymous human being”:tanning: (are dark glasses anon enough?) can say with candid generalization -

“:egyptian:They must all be:choocho: hyper-active”:takeoff:

They must be part of the Geritol generation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Faithdancer]

Me too. Perhaps it is a strategy he is using to restore confidence in the faithful that their ‘mission’ has not changed - before he takes the next step. Bearing in mind that St Nicholas du Chardonnet where this sermon of November 16 took place, has the largest and most fervent congregation in their organization. In fact this church was seized by force by the SSPX in 1977.

"In 1977, eleven years before the Ecône Consecrations, members of the Society of St. Pius X led by François Ducaud-Bourget expelled the parish priest and his assistants and occupied the church.[2]
Shortly afterwards, the city of Paris gave an eviction order. In 1978, the Court of Cassation confirmed that the occupation was illegal but the order of eviction was never implemented.[3] On February 20, 1987, the Conseil d’État ruled that the disturbance to public order resulting from an expulsion would be higher than that resulting from the illegal occupation. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Nicolas-du-Chardonnet#cite_note-4

“It is now the society’s only church in the city of Paris itself (others exist in the Île de France) and although it is not their official French headquarters[7] it is seen as their de facto national centre.
On a typical Sunday there are about six Masses sung back to back, with almost no interruption”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Nicolas-du-Chardonnet
(sorry, i’m feeling lazy so it’s wikiagain)
/

Dee, I have read that St. Nicholas du Chardonnet was in rigor mortis at the time the SSPX occupied it, it had a handful of parishioners, one weekly Mass and was in danger of closure. Such closure might have resulted in the property being seized by the French government, with the property being sold off to secular interests or used for other, non-religious purposes, under the 1905 Loi de Séparation des Eglises et de L’Etat.

“Seized by force,” LOL! What were their weapons- the 1962 missals?? I suppose they could deliver blunt force trauma, especially when wielded by that elderly priest who led the battle…
Well anyway, if it says so in Wikipedia it must be true!

 

[TimothyH]

God has a plan. Right now, his plan is that I walk the dog while I pray Matins.

Amen."

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

How irresponsible of you.

I prefer to pace back and forth between my kitchen and living room, muttering about Martin Luther and cursing the reformation. Every once in a while I go outside and shake my fist at the geese flying south.

Or is it north?

-Tim-

 

[Justin_Swanton]

I can’t help but think that there is a need to make some distinctions here to arrive at the truth. What troubles me the most about this sermon is the the blanket condemnation of things that absolutely require nuancing.

Let me do this in two parts to keep to maximum post length.

Accept that “the Magisterium is the judge of the apostolic Tradition,” in other words that it is indeed the Magisterium that tells us what belongs to Tradition. That is de fide, an article of faith. Obviously, in this context, the Pope is utilizing it so as to oblige us to accept the innovations."

As it stands this does not make sense. The Magisterium is the Church’s official teaching organism. By its nature it cannot impose anything erroneous on Catholics as Bishop Fellay implies by noting that it is ‘of Faith’ (I’m not overly impressed by this translation, by the way). If the ‘innovations’ are of a nature that a Catholic could not accept them in conscience, then the Magisterium would not impose them, end of story.

“You blame all the current evils on the authorities even though they are trying to extricate the Church from them (eg

the condemnation of the hermeneutic of continuity) … and are thus not all obstinate in heresy. That is clearly false. Hence when it comes to the crucial question of making an accord, we do not come to the same conclusion as you.”

“Church history shows that we only recover gradually from heresies and crises, so it is not realistic to wait until everything is sorted out. If we refuse to work in this field, we fall foul of the parable of the wheat and the cockle in which Our Lord warns us that there would always be internal conflict.”

All true enough.

"And above all we are being asked to accept that “the Council is an integral part of this Tradition.” In other words that the Council is “Tradition”, is traditional. For forty years we have said the opposite, not because it suits us but, according to these memorable words said so many times by our venerable founder: “We cannot help but see” - facts show it to us – that this council, it has the firm will of doing something new. And this does not consist of any kind of novelty, of some superficial novelty, but of a profound novelty in opposition to, in contradiction with, what the Church has always taught and even condemned. We are not in this combat for so many years just to suit ourselves, opposed to these novelties, the conciliar reforms that are destroying the Church and creating a ruin. And here we are told: the condition is the accept that ‘the council is a integral part of Tradition.”

“Likewise you lack realism, just as the liberals make the Council a superdogma, you are making the Council a superheresy. Archbishop Lefebvre made distinctions about liberal Catholics, and if you do not make them, your caricature of reality could lead to a true schism."

The problem here is that the SSPX does not know what to make of the Council. The argument “Vat II was just a pastoral council as it didn’t define any new dogmas and so Catholics are to obliged by Faith to accept it” is a worn-out old sock. The council has the same status as other Ecumenical councils and large parts of it are doctrinal even if no new dogma was promulgated. A council spokesman (I’ll dig up the source) stated that the context of the texts would make it clear which parts of the Council documents were doctrinal, requiring assent, and which were not.

Parts of Vat II are problematic, which means they need interpretation and clarification in the light of Tradition, or the Church’s constant teaching on the topics in question. Some parts of the Council are not dogmatic and ***can ***be criticised, even corrected. All this has already been done. One is obliged neither to accept every word from the council at face value without discussion, nor to reject it outright. Basic stuff this.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

And the second half.

Finally another condition that, this time, concerns the Mass. We are required to accept the validity of the new mass, but not just the validity. We also have to accept its liceity. One speaks of validity when one asks: “does the thing exist?” A validly celebrated mass means Our Lord is there. One makes abstraction of the circumstances in which this mass is said. In this way a black mass is valid. It is horrendous, a terrible sacrilege, but unfortunately, there are priests who consecrate what is termed a black mass. This mass is valid. When considering this shocking example you understand clearly that it is not permitted, that it is not licit because it is bad. Licit means permitted because it is good. As for us, we have seen the ravages of this new mass, we have seen how it was created, for what purpose it was created, which is ecumenism. And we see the results, the loss of the Faith, churches emptied, and we say: it is bad. This is the answer I gave Rome. Usually we don’t even speak of liceity; we simply speak of the mass as being bad. That suffices. "

“Do you still believe that the Church is the Church and that the Pope is Pope? Can Christ still speak through him? If he expresses a legitimate desire or decision, should we not obey, and will not God help us? "

The blue and black passages actually talk about different things, but let that pass.

Comparing the New Mass to a black mass shows that the bishop does not actually have personal knowledge of the New Mass (or OF, terms don’t matter). If one looks at the text and rubics of the OF as they are printed in the Missal there is nothing that would oblige a Catholic in conscience to stay away: no heresy, no sacrilege, no disrespect for Our Lord or the sacred Mysteries.

As celebrated in many places, however, the OF can be another matter entirely (this said with all respect to Br JREducation). The trouble with the OF is that from its inception it has been linked with wild liturgical abuses and continues to be linked with them, as if the two by their nature go hand in hand. Liturgically, the OF is great deal more flexible than the EF where every last gesture is carefully prescribed, and so it is open to all sorts of adaptations, but that does not mean it must necessarily be ‘bad’. In my teens I went to an OF Mass sung in Latin at Harare cathedral, celebrated by a conservative Jesuit priest. It was actually the then Fr Williamson (yes, ***that ***bishop) who encouraged us to go to it, there being no Tridentine Mass available. It all depends on how it is celebrated.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

“Seized by force,” LOL! What were their weapons- the 1962 missals?? I suppose they could deliver blunt force trauma, especially when wielded by that elderly priest who led the battle…

There was a large crowd who met at the nearby Maubert Mutualite building, finalised their plans then entered St Nicolas in time for the morning Mass. The parish priest was surprised to see such a large turnout as his usual congregation was about a dozen or so. After Mass the dozen left whilst the rest stayed. The priest, looking in from the vestry, got wind of what was up and locked the door. He refused to come out. Eventually (if my memory is correct) the door was broken open and the priest was, um…escorted out the church. He immediately went into the neighbouring presbytery building which was not taken over.

About a dozen men sleep in St Nicholas each night to make sure the Conciliar side doesn’t try to pull the same fast one on them (as they have tried elsewhere - cf the Port Marly incident).

 

[Thomas_Casey]

NOTICE FROM MODERATOR

The Society of St. Pius X is not to be referred to as a cult, schismatic, heretical or any other label that is inconsistent with anything that has been said by the Sacred Congregation for the Faith and the Holy Father.

At the same time, there is to be no promotion or support for any position of the Society that is in conflict with the wishes of the Holy Father.

CAF is a Catholic apostolate. We can agree and disagree on many things; but there will be zero tolerance for any contradiction or opposition to the Holy Father and his wishes. You may express your opinion regarding his wishes. You may disagree. You MAY NOT promote disagreement. Such behavior is as much dissent as that which comes from the left. Neither is tolerated on this forum.

Violators will be suspended or banned without warning. Please make sure that others know this as well.

Thank You for your cooperation.

 

[Faithdancer]

There was a large crowd who met at the nearby Maubert Mutualite building, finalised their plans then entered St Nicolas in time for the morning Mass. The parish priest was surprised to see such a large turnout as his usual congregation was about a dozen or so. After Mass the dozen left whilst the rest stayed. The priest, looking in from the vestry, got wind of what was up and locked the door. He refused to come out. Eventually (if my memory is correct) the door was broken open and the priest was, um…escorted out the church. He immediately went into the neighbouring presbytery building which was not taken over.

About a dozen men sleep in St Nicholas each night to make sure the Conciliar side doesn’t try to pull the same fast one on them (as they have tried elsewhere - cf the Port Marly incident).

Well I’m glad no one was hurt in the fracas. I hope that the priest who had been vicar at that church found a suitable post elsewhere. And it’s unfortunate if he got his hopes up over the large turnout only to have them dashed.

 

[Faithdancer]

How irresponsible of you.

I prefer to pace back and forth between my kitchen and living room, muttering about Martin Luther and cursing the reformation. Every once in a while I go outside and shake my fist at the geese flying south.

Or is it north?

-Tim-

I think they are flying south from most parts of the northern hemisphere. Although I was at a lay Franciscan retreat in upstate NY last year around this time and a flock of geese landed on the pond at the hotel right in front of me. I thought they would have been long gone but they may have been confused by the unusually warm weather last year- it was in the 60’s in Syracuse for a few days in mid-November.

 

[Faithdancer]

Hey, how 'bout those 49ers?

 

[Justin_Swanton]

Well I’m glad no one was hurt in the fracas. I hope that the priest who had been vicar at that church found a suitable post elsewhere. And it’s unfortunate if he got his hopes up over the large turnout only to have them dashed.

No, it was quite a clean business. Not like Port Marly which got very ugly. It’s a church in Versailles, also with a poor OF attendance, that was occupied by Fr. Bruno de Blignieres, a traditional priest not part of the SSPX. The regular parish priest organised a ‘parish committee’ with a large proportion of young Moslems, and entered the church with some police during a Sunday Mass. A journalist in the corner managed to take photos. The whole thing was like mob action - fists and boots, one young girl got her leg broken. A real mess.

Fr Bruno is now in a regular situation with the Church, teaching in a school in France, I believe. The French government leaves the occupied churches to the SSPX, but will no longer tolerate that any new churches are occupied in this manner.

 

[Aramis]

As celebrated in many places, however, the OF can be another matter entirely (this said with all respect to Br JREducation). The trouble with the OF is that from its inception it has been linked with wild liturgical abuses and continues to be linked with them, as if the two by their nature go hand in hand. Liturgically, the OF is great deal more flexible than the EF where every last gesture is carefully prescribed, and so it is open to all sorts of adaptations, but that does not mean it must necessarily be ‘bad’. In my teens I went to an OF Mass sung in Latin at Harare cathedral, celebrated by a conservative Jesuit priest. It was actually the then Fr Williamson (yes, ***that ***bishop) who encouraged us to go to it, there being no Tridentine Mass available. It all depends on how it is celebrated.

Ask an older Dominican Friar about abuses of the 1962 missal. You’ll likely get an earful. Some older diocesan priests as well will note the abuses that were rampant.

I once asked Friar John Fearon, OP, of eternal memory, about liturgical abuses before Vatican II… almost half an hour later, he concluded with, “and that’s just the major ones.” He started the list with people simply showing up and “marking time at mass” without even paying attention. Priests ignoring or changing rubrics. Masses without sermons even on sundays. Priests rushing the latin to the point of unintelligibility. (Mind you, Friar John could say the daily Dominican Low Mass in 20 min or so - but every word was distinct. And that includes the reading and the homily, in his succinct but thought provoking manner.) Priests saying the mass when intoxicated. Priests having the deacon and subdeacon distribute communion while the celebrant retired to the throne.

The form of the mass doesn’t make liturgical abuse more or less likely, tho’ it might foster confusion about what is or is not an abuse… I’ve encountered a traditionalist who was scandalized by the Friar-celebrant being hooded until after the prayers at the foot of the altar, for example, not realizing what he was attending was the Dominican mass, not the 1962 Tridentine Missal.

Reverence for the Mass, and respect of the mass text and for the authority of the magisterium has a lot more impact on reducing liturgical abuses than which form of the mass is used.

 

[Faithdancer]

No, it was quite a clean business. Not like Port Marly which got very ugly. It’s a church in Versailles, also with a poor OF attendance, that was occupied by Fr. Bruno de Blignieres, a traditional priest not part of the SSPX. The regular parish priest organised a ‘parish committee’ with a large proportion of young Moslems, and entered the church with some police during a Sunday Mass. A journalist in the corner managed to take photos. The whole thing was like mob action - fists and boots, one young girl got her leg broken. A real mess.

Fr Bruno is now in a regular situation with the Church, teaching in a school in France, I believe. The French government leaves the occupied churches to the SSPX, but will no longer tolerate that any new churches are occupied in this manner.

It seems reasonable that any change of occupancy of a parish church for any reason should be accomplished amicably and with charity all around.

 

[Faithdancer]

Ask an older Dominican Friar about abuses of the 1962 missal. You’ll likely get an earful. Some older diocesan priests as well will note the abuses that were rampant.

I once asked Friar John Fearon, OP, of eternal memory, about liturgical abuses before Vatican II… almost half an hour later, he concluded with, “and that’s just the major ones.” He started the list with people simply showing up and “marking time at mass” without even paying attention. Priests ignoring or changing rubrics. Masses without sermons even on sundays. Priests rushing the latin to the point of unintelligibility. (Mind you, Friar John could say the daily Dominican Low Mass in 20 min or so - but every word was distinct. And that includes the reading and the homily, in his succinct but thought provoking manner.) Priests saying the mass when intoxicated. Priests having the deacon and subdeacon distribute communion while the celebrant retired to the throne.

The form of the mass doesn’t make liturgical abuse more or less likely, tho’ it might foster confusion about what is or is not an abuse… I’ve encountered a traditionalist who was scandalized by the Friar-celebrant being hooded until after the prayers at the foot of the altar, for example, not realizing what he was attending was the Dominican mass, not the 1962 Tridentine Missal.

Reverence for the Mass, and respect of the mass text and for the authority of the magisterium has a lot more impact on reducing liturgical abuses than which form of the mass is used.

Abuses are certainly never good, regardless of the language or rite, eh? Just goes to show that we’re all human, and charity is always a great thing!

 

[Faithdancer]

Happy Thanksgiving to all, by the way. Thanks for making this thread, imho, one of the more peaceful and chill of its kind- and that’s sayin’ a lot!

 

[Justin_Swanton]

It seems reasonable that any change of occupancy of a parish church for any reason should be accomplished amicably and with charity all around.

You don’t know French Catholics. Correction: you don’t know the French!

 

[Dee_S]

Well anyway, if it says so in Wikipedia it must be true!

If you say so…
http://theimprovorlando.com/ComicIm...5e991-1f7a-4bc3-90c2-0ca22ae5a207/320/510/Y/N

Wishing all our American friends here a very HAPPY THANKSGIVING…

Deckss.com is for sale | HugeDomains. . .ENJOY!*

 

[Faithdancer]

3.bp.blogspot.com/_HKvsXzsgZt4/SS7RT62jCMI/AAAAAAAAA8I/kNrdn0l6nBU/s320/funny-thanksgiving-eat-beef-joke.gif

 

[Moore11]

Hey, how 'bout those 49ers?

They should start Kaepernick but they wont because the coach has some sort of strange fascination with Smith. Though I guess kap got some first team reps.
49rs should start kap, Jets should start Tebow and Bears should start… getting ready for next year.