SSPX update?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Faithdancer
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That’s what I wonder too. Is there something in the position of the Vatican and the CDF that states that if reconciled the SSPX must celebrate the OF Mass? Nothing I’ve read about it to date would indicate that.
One cannot outlaw what is ordinary, unless it is deemed no longer ordinary by the one whom holds the keys. The SSPX and other groups can say anything they want about refusing to celebrate the OF, but if push comes to shove, they can’t outright wholesale reject to celebrate the Ordinary Form.

In most cases people would take a pastoral approach and not push the issue. For example, the FSSP and other such groups are usually left to their own devices. However the obedience to Rome is still there, and the FSSP and ICK and others will celebrate the OF if required for whatever reason.

That obedience is a stumbling block for the SSPX, I think. I’m under the impression they want to be totally exempt from the ordinary.
 
A stupid question, perhaps :o :

could not the SSPX “accept” the OF, but celebrate in their chapels the EF only? IOW, the OF not for themselves, but for whoever else wanted the OF? Would this not solve the problem? What am I missing?:o
The Holy Father told them that they must accept that the Ordinary Form of the mass is valid and licit. The SSPX agrees that it’s valid, but refuses to accept that it’s licit. The stumbling block is not whether or not they celebrate it. That would be an internal issue if they become a prelature. But no Catholic is allowed to say that the Ordinary Form of the mass is bad. Bishop Fellay has gone down on record as saying that the Society believes that the OF is “bad”. Those are his exact words.

In essence, the Society is then saying that every priest from Venerable Paul VI to Pope Benedict XVI has been celebrating a bad mass and haa been supporting it. To make it short and not so sweet. their statement is saying that the Magisterium has approved, promoted and participated in an illegal form of the mass. That’s quite an indictment of the Magisterium.

The other issue is the CCC. The Holy Father has told them that they must assent to the CCC. No Catholic is exempt from this assent. The Society will assent to the Catechism of Trent and the Catechism of Pius X. The CCC is based on the Catechism of Trent. The Catechism of Pius X was never the official catechism of the Catholic Church. This does not mean that it was a bad catechism. It simply means what it says. Pope Pius did not write and publish it with the intent of making it the official catechism of the Church. Whereas, Pope John Paul and Cardinal Ratzinger did write and publish the CCC with the intent of making it the official catechism of the Catholic Church and commanded that all catechisms in the future should use the CCC as their resource. That’s in the decree written by Bl. John Paul. The Society has said that it will not give assent to the CCC, because “it contains the same errors as the Council documents.”

The other stumbling block is that the Pope told Bishop Fellay that the SSPX must accept that the documents of Vatican II are free of all error and that they are part of the tradition of the Church. Even though Vatican II was a pastoral council, it does not cease to be an essential part of the Church’s teaching Magisterium; because in the end, pastoral care is the work of the Church.

Bishop Fellay said that the documents on religious freedom and ecumenism are contrary to what the Church has taught in the past. Pope Benedict’s response is that it is the pope who decides what is and what is not part of tradition, what is and what is not contrary to the faith of the Church. This raised the next stumbling block.

The Pope sent a message to Bishop Fellay that said that the SSPX must accept, de fide, that only the pope can determine what is or is not tradition. They accept that only the pope can determine this, but they argue that in this case the pope is mistaken and they are right. This response is a tad confusing.

The issues have nothing to do with the bishops and the local dioceses. That was settled when they were offered the prelature. The prelature is totally dependent on the pope, just as is the Opus Dei Prelature. There are some stumbling blocks with the prelature. The pope a) appoints the bishop whom he delegates to govern the prelature; b) even though the prelature can write its constitutions and statutes, the pope can revise them, overrule them or write them himself; and c) no prelature can open a house in any diocese without the permission of the local bishop. However, the pope made a concession to them, which Bishop Fellay mentions in this talk. Any chapel that is three years or older can stay open without further permission. Bishop Fellay also said that the Holy Father said that in those places where there is no physical chapel, but where they have been celebrating the mass for the people for three years or longer, even though it may be a motel room or auditorium, these can be considered chapels. The next step would be to build one.

If I’m understanding this correctly, this is the same as when a new parish is established. The parish building may not exist, but the people and the parish staff do exist. It’s a matter of putting up a permanent building in the proper geographical area.

The stumbling blocks are greater than the EF. Basically, they’re being asked to do what the rest of us have to do. By the rest of us, I mean other religious orders, religious congregations, secular orders, societies of apostolic life and secular institutes. To be recognized being in full communion with the Church, the leadership has had to agree to these points in the name of their members and the faithful who follow them.

For example, when our community was given permission to separate from the larger Franciscan community, I, as superior, had to state that we believe and we agree with everything that the Catholic Church teaches, everything that the Holy See commands, everything that the local bishop orders and everything that has been handed down to us from St. Francis. You have to swear to this in the name of your community. The community members are not asked. The superior makes this decision for them. They accept it, leave or are dismissed.

My situation was easier. First, we do believe and agree with all the above. Second, we were only seven at the time. Third, the laity whom we serve are not allowed to have a voice in how we serve them, nor do we allow our men to share with the laity everything that we decide internally. The lay faithful whom we serve accept what we have to offer or not. It’s their choice. If they accept what we have to offer, they must also support the apostolate.
 
From what I read on another site, there are many lay faithful who have posted that Bishop Fellay owes them explanations and that he cannot make agreements with Rome without informing them. By them, they include the laity as well as the priests, brothers and seminarians of the SSPX. In most institutes, neither the laity nor the people in formation are part of the dialogue. The plan is given to them when it’s completed. My opinion is that the more people involved, the more complex the situation. I can’t see how it is humanly possible to get that many people to agree on such important issues.

At some point, someone is going to have to invoke their authority and impose a decision on the whole and let the chips fall where they may. What other option is there? I can’t see one.

Have a blessed New Year!

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
A stupid question, perhaps :o :

could not the SSPX “accept” the OF, but celebrate in their chapels the EF only? IOW, the OF not for themselves, but for whoever else wanted the OF? Would this not solve the problem? What am I missing?:o
Because Rome has set a flat-out requirement that all Roman Church priests must be willing to celebrate the Ordinary Form. There is also a concomitant expectation that they should be trained properly to celebrate it - which the majority of the SSPX are not.

This applies to priests trained in the Mozarabic, Bragan, Ambrosian, Dominican, and Dalmatian Rites, and to the Anglican Use. And the ICK and FSSP. Even Russian Greek Catholic priests (who are almost all part of Roman dioceses) are expected to concelebrate in the Roman Rite OF when diocesan functions are held - even tho when so doing, such Russian Greek Catholic Priests can be expected to vest in their Byzantine Rite vestments!
 
Because Rome has set a flat-out requirement that all Roman Church priests must be willing to celebrate the Ordinary Form. There is also a concomitant expectation that they should be trained properly to celebrate it - which the majority of the SSPX are not.I don’t know what was in the original deal which was offered to the SSPX, and whether or not the Pope would strictly require this of them. Does anyone else know?

This applies to priests trained in the Mozarabic, Bragan, Ambrosian, Dominican, and Dalmatian Rites, and to the Anglican Use. And the ICK and FSSP. Even Russian Greek Catholic priests (who are almost all part of Roman dioceses) are expected to concelebrate in the Roman Rite OF when diocesan functions are held - even tho when so doing, such Russian Greek Catholic Priests can be expected to vest in their Byzantine Rite vestments!
There was one such priest at the ginormous rite of healing last year at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels (LA) he was the only priest sporting a beard, too. To say he stood out among the 15 or 20 concelebrants there is an understatement. I didn’t get a chance to talk to him and find out where he was from, unfortunately.
 
I tried listening to Bp. Fellay’s speech as suggested a few posts back. I found it rambling and incoherent and didn’t have the patience to finish it. One of the commenters on Fr. Z’s blog parsed the audio and concluded that the talk pretty much guarantees that dialogue has broken down and that the SSPX will be declared schismatic.
 
I tried listening to Bp. Fellay’s speech as suggested a few posts back. I found it rambling and incoherent and didn’t have the patience to finish it. One of the commenters on Fr. Z’s blog parsed the audio and concluded that the talk pretty much guarantees that dialogue has broken down and that the SSPX will be declared schismatic.
I disagree completely. I listened to it and thought it was interesting to see how they view the situation. I came away from it thinking Fellay is not understanding how political the situation is. Almost as if he does not understand how things work. But I also came away from it with hope for the situation.
It is silly to speculate who will and won’t be declared schismatic. We have no idea. And it sounds like neither does the SSPX. To say the SSPX will or wont be declared schismatic is just noise from those who have no idea themselves how things work.
 
I tried listening to Bp. Fellay’s speech as suggested a few posts back. I found it rambling and incoherent and didn’t have the patience to finish it. One of the commenters on Fr. Z’s blog parsed the audio and concluded that the talk pretty much guarantees that dialogue has broken down and that the SSPX will be declared schismatic.
I disagree completely. I listened to it and thought it was interesting to see how they view the situation. I came away from it thinking Fellay is not understanding how political the situation is. Almost as if he does not understand how things work. But I also came away from it with hope for the situation.
It is silly to speculate who will and won’t be declared schismatic. We have no idea. And it sounds like neither does the SSPX. To say the SSPX will or wont be declared schismatic is just noise from those who have no idea themselves how things work.
There does not have to be a paper trail for a group to be in schism, look at the SSPV. The Vatican has said nothing. The law speaks for itself.

In the case of the SSPX, the Holy Father cleverly and I believe deliberately threw in a requirement that was not originally part of the preamble. If that requirement is not met, there is an automatic schism.

Bishop Fellay himself said that the first condition that the Holy Father communicated to him via a private memo (which I don’t understand why Bishop Fellay is sharing with the faithful) is that the SSPX acknowledge that only the pope can decide what is and what is not consistent with Tradition. Bishop Fellay also said that this is “De fide”.

We all agree that this is de fide. No one but the Holy Father can define Tradition. If the SSPX says that the Holy Father’s position on Vatican II is mistaken and that it (the Society) cannot accept the Holy Father’s statement that “Vatican II is error free and part of tradition”, then it is refusing to accept what is de fide a papal prerogative. That may be enough to constitute a break with the papacy.

The more I think about it, the more I believe that this condition was thrown in there very deliberately. I believe that in his love and desire to bring the Society into full communion with the Holy See, , he’s providing a mechanism for them to concede and not lose face.

We must pray that they will use the open window.

PS. I too had to skip through the video. We had heard much of it before in bits and pieces.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
The more I think about it, the more I believe that this condition was thrown in there very deliberately. I believe that in his love and desire to bring the Society into full communion with the Holy See, , he’s providing a mechanism for them to concede and not lose face.

We must pray that they will use the open window.

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Can you expand on this a little bit?
 
The more I reflect on the previous link the more it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Especially the comments about the Jews, Pope Paul the VI, the Masons and Communists.

After thinking about it more I must admit it was an odd speech.
 
Can you expand on this a little bit?
If I felt as they feel about Vatican II, but I also know that it is true that the Holy Father has the final word on what is and is not tradition, then I have no choice but to admit what I know to be true or be unfaithful to my conscience, to God and to the Church.

In this case, I have to admit that if the Holy Father says that Vatican II is part of tradition, is error free, and that there is simply a need for proper understanding of the Council’s determinations. Then the Holy Father has done me a favor by “checkmating” me.

It’s hard to explain, but that’s a rough exposition of what I’m thinking.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
If I felt as they feel about Vatican II, but I also know that it is true that the Holy Father has the final word on what is and is not tradition, then I have no choice but to admit what I know to be true or be unfaithful to my conscience, to God and to the Church.

In this case, I have to admit that if the Holy Father says that Vatican II is part of tradition, is error free, and that there is simply a need for proper understanding of the Council’s determinations. Then the Holy Father has done me a favor by “checkmating” me.

It’s hard to explain, but that’s a rough exposition of what I’m thinking.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
I think I see what you are saying. My mind is more cynical than that.😉

I think we could see a recognition/reconciliation based on a cynical view of the political nature of the negotiations. The Vatican and the Pope could be trying to satisfy both sides by talking about VII in terms that some who do not agree with the SSPX would like. All the while getting ready to regularize the SSPX. No doubt if they are or are not regularized there will be unhappy people. So what better way than to release a bunch of statements supporting VII in light of Tradition to subdue the outcry and conclusions that people will draw if the Pope were to take in the SSPX.

Admittedly, I see it this way because I so dearly want the SSPX to be fully Catholic. And because I do believe a little of what the SSPX is saying about the negotiations. This could be the “dont panic” phase Fellay talked about.🤷
 
There was one such priest at the ginormous rite of healing last year at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels (LA) he was the only priest sporting a beard, too. To say he stood out among the 15 or 20 concelebrants there is an understatement. I didn’t get a chance to talk to him and find out where he was from, unfortunately.
He’s from St Andrew in El Segundo. standrewelsegundo.org/
A living example of the Unity of the Church in the mode of the 1st Millenium.
 
I think I see what you are saying. My mind is more cynical than that.😉

I think we could see a recognition/reconciliation based on a cynical view of the political nature of the negotiations. The Vatican and the Pope could be trying to satisfy both sides by talking about VII in terms that some who do not agree with the SSPX would like. All the while getting ready to regularize the SSPX. No doubt if they are or are not regularized there will be unhappy people. So what better way than to release a bunch of statements supporting VII in light of Tradition to subdue the outcry and conclusions that people will draw if the Pope were to take in the SSPX.

Admittedly, I see it this way because I so dearly want the SSPX to be fully Catholic. And because I do believe a little of what the SSPX is saying about the negotiations. This could be the “dont panic” phase Fellay talked about.🤷
Having been Cardinal Ratzinger’s student, many many years ago, I find it very hard to believe that the Holy Father plays political games. He’s a genius, a gentleman, a diplomat, a scholar, an artist, a holy man and a straight shooter. Just look at some of the strong things that he has said about the SSPX.

a. arrogant

b. misguided

c. ideologists

d. antisemitic

e. Lefebvrists

Then look at the positives

a. Faithful

b. Honest

c. Children of the Church

d. Good men

e. Confused

These are terms that please and displease people on the extremes of the continuum. The Holy Father has used them without too much concern about their pleasure or displeasure.

I believe this is why he and Bl. John Paul got along so well. Cardinal Ratzinger was the practical one and Bl. John Paul was the idealist. You need both in this world. They balance each other and they restrain each other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
I will pray daily for reconciliation, and for SSPX to become the second personal Prelature in the Roman Catholic Church.
SSPX leaders and members alike must stop their disobedience and vicious anti-Semitism or they will never be reconciled to Rome.

In order to be a prelature, they must be OBEDIENT. So far there is no obedience in evidence. SSPX must be the party to repent and compromise; not the Holy See.

By their fruits you shall know them. After 40+ years, what GOOD has SSPX done in the world and for the Church? Nada, zip, zilch. Nothing but infighting, ridiculous aspersions, hatred, conspiracy theories, resentment, and disobedience.

They peddle hatred for the Jews and that is a TERRIBLE thing. Fellay blames the Jews for the problems of SSPX. That batty Williamson is a rabid anti-Semite and a holocaust denier. He’s also a 9/11 conspiracy theorist and preaches this vile dog **** from the pulpit.

Until this vile and disobedient group tempers itself and submits, it belongs on the fringes.
 
I think we need to slow down here.
SSPX leaders and members alike must stop their disobedience and vicious anti-Semitism or they will never be reconciled to Rome.
I agree that there is no room in the Church for antisemitism and disobedience must also stop. I think your tone is not going to help. I’m assuming that you’re not a priest of the SSPX and you’re probably a layman. Therefore, neither you (because your a layman), nor I because I’m a Franciscan, have the right to attempt to tell another institute what to do.
In order to be a prelature, they must be OBEDIENT. So far there is no obedience in evidence. SSPX must be the party to repent and compromise; not the Holy See.
We are all called to obedience and to repentance.
By their fruits you shall know them. After 40+ years, what GOOD has SSPX done in the world and for the Church? Nada, zip, zilch. Nothing but infighting, ridiculous aspersions, hatred, conspiracy theories, resentment, and disobedience.
OK, let’s assume that you’re right. Let’s look at what you have written. Can you honestly tell me that it is a loving statement devoid of condescension, rejection and judgment?
They peddle hatred for the Jews and that is a TERRIBLE thing.
Any kind of hatred is a terrible thing, be it hatred of Jews, gays, blacks, Muslims, Arabs, Protestants, Christians and other political ideologies. I would say that they are no more prejudice than the rest of us. They have a weakness. They have many people with very poor social skills who don’t know when to keep their mouths shut. But I don’t believe for a moment that they have a monopoly on bigotry and hatred.
Fellay blames the Jews for the problems of SSPX.
I have heard that he said this. I have not heard it. I’ll take it that people are telling the truth. However, as I always say, whenever you listen to me, remember that I’m only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand. It’s important to make sure that people understand what he means. If he truly means that Jews are guilty of the SSPX problems, that’s an interesting charge that has to be proven. If he meant something else and people misunderstood him, it may not be his fault. I can’t say what he means until I hear for myself.
That batty Williamson is a rabid anti-Semite and a holocaust denier. He’s also a 9/11 conspiracy theorist and preaches this vile dog **** from the pulpit.
I’m not going to say anything about the content of this statement. I will say this, as a religious myself, I find this very offensive. Whatever our sins may be, we religious and clergy still have a special place in the Church and that should be respected. Therefore, out of respect for the body of clergy and religious, I would refrain from this kind of sentence.
Vile is a very strong word. I would agree with disobedient. I have a problem with vile. Vile implies deliberately evil or substantially evil. I do not believe that the SSPX clergy is either evil by choice or by essence. I believe that it has done many things that have triggered major problems. That’s not the same as being evil.
As to belonging on the fringe, I’m going to disagree with you because I’m a Franciscan. When Jesus came to earth the first people who knew of his entrance into human history were people on the fringes of society: shepherds and gentiles from the East. Later he would build his church upon the faith of a dumb fisherman with a potty mouth. If we understand Christology, what see is that God is the God of the fringe.
If you want to say that they should be excluded, I would have to ask you, to whom should they go, if the Church turns her back on them?
The mother has a duty to discipline her children, but she does not have the right to abandon them.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
MODERATOR NOTICE
**
Virulent attacks on the SSPX, Jesuits, Franciscans, Opus Dei, the Little Rascals or the Little League, I don’t care which group, such attacks are not allowed on this forum.

I’m only leaving this up, because I want everyone to see exactly what I’m talking about.

I don’t want to see a repeat performance.**

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Does anyone have a problem with my statement?
 
😦 I have this latest update to offer but do so very sadly, as it looks to me like the SSPX will never, certainly in this generation, enter into full communion with the Church and all the efforts of our Holy Father have come to nothing, except a sorrow that all mother’s bear when their child is prodigal.

Bishop Fellay has for the past few months been travelling the globe giving sermons to his followers stating that it was due to being misled by vatican officials that he appeared to be betraying the SSPX position and that he personally had no intention of NOT holding the line…

"In an audio recording from a nearly two-hour talk Dec. 28 at Our Lady of Mount Carmel Academy in New Hamburg, Ont., Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior general of the society, claimed that top Vatican officials told him not to be discouraged by official statements from the Vatican, because they did not reflect Pope Benedict XVI’s true feelings.

The Vatican press office declined to comment Jan. 4 on the claims."

“Apparently speaking without a text, he also called the Jewish people “enemies of the Church,” saying Jewish leaders’ support of the Second Vatican Council “shows that Vatican II is their thing, not the Church’s.””

“Those most opposed to the Church granting canonical recognition to the traditionalist society have been “the enemies of the Church: the Jews, the Masons,” he said.”

There was no response Jan. 4 from the society’s Swiss headquarters to a Catholic News Service e-mail request for comment.
**
"The unofficial assurances were what kept him engaged in talks, he said, since the Vatican’s official demands, which carried the Pope’s approval, “would mean the end of our relation with Rome.”**
Code:
 "Fellay said Pope Benedict wrote to him, emphasizing that full recognition required the society accept the magisterium as the judge of what is tradition, accept the council as an integral part of tradition and accept that the modern Mass is valid and licit."
"Fellay said, “Even in the council there are some things we accept,” as well as reject, however, the group wishes to be free to say, “there are errors in the council” and that "the new Mass is evil."

“The group will not accept reconciliation if it means no longer being able to make such pronouncements, he said.”

catholicregister.org/news/international/item/15637-sspx-head-says-vatican-sent-mixed-messages-during-reconciliation-talks
 
Apparently speaking without a text, he also called the Jewish people “enemies of the Church,” saying Jewish leaders’ support of the Second Vatican Council “shows that Vatican II is their thing, not the Church’s.”
Wow. Just… Wow.

I have trouble believing that Bp. Fellay would say such; it is the kind of thing I’ve come to expect from Bp. Williamson.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top