SSPX View of the New Mass

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All of your protests do no erase your opening statement which places the Society outside of the Church-- in your own words.
In the quote I listed above, the Catholic Church is shown to be in a continual state of sacrilege. (The Mass is the perpetual Sacrifice of Calvary and the Mass to day is sacriligious). The SSPX could help others understand their relationship to the Catholic Church better if they would no constantly paint themselves in apposition to the Catholic Church. I am a firm believer that Catholics here need to exercise a little benefit of the doubt when it comes to the SSPX, but by the same token, the SSPX has no business making some of the divisive and intolerant statements that they do.

I guess if the SSPX wants more respect and understanding, if they want Catholics to give them the benefit of the doubt, then they themselves should “do unto others as they would have others do unto them.”
 
If the Pope ruled that all had to follow his example then yes you are right, but as he has not seen fit to do so you are wrong.

Nice try though.
Pope Paul VI ruled against CITH and Pope John Paul II ruled against altar girls.

Your welcome.
 
P.S. The whole discussion of whether the SSPX is in or out of the Church misses the point altogether. No one can point to any heresy or doctrinally unsound teaching of the SSPX so instead it is claimed that they are outside of the Church. But outside for what reason? For teaching the same things that the Church always taught before the council? Or for celebrating the mass of all time instead of a mass invented in the 1960’s? Just ask yourself what has the SSPX done so wrong?
On this point you have to be very careful not to confuse people. Let’s break it down into small pieces
  1. Archbishop Lefebvre did violate Church law when he ordained four bishops. The Society and the Archbishop claim that they were in a state of emergency and they claim fear. Pope John Paul II responded that these canons did not apply in this situation. The pope is the final arbitre when it comes to deciding what canons apply and which ones do not. He is the “senior justice” if you will.
  2. When Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunications of the bishops, he was very explicit that there are doctrinal issues with the Society. I have no idea which ones. His letter did not go into detail. However, if a pope says that there are doctrinal issues between the Society and the Church, then you have to accept that. What may not be an issue to the Society, is obviously an issue to the pope. He is the boss.
  3. It may be true that the Society has not taught anything that we can say is heresy. Sometimes a doctrinal issue is not about what you teach. It can be about what you reject. But we have not been told what those issues are. We’re speculating here to say that they are these and those issues. I’m not sure where is the benefit to such speculation.
My suggestion, out of kindness and respect to both the Society and the Holy Father is to stop the speculating and wait. Why do you folks need to know right now?

Sometimes, it’s OK to move on with our lives and let the Vatican sort things out.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Pope Paul VI ruled against CITH and Pope John Paul II ruled against altar girls.

Your welcome.
Pope John Paul II never ruled against altar girls, he may have said no in his diocese but he did not make it a discipline for the whole Latin Church.

Pope Benedict has allowed both to continue.

Your welcome.
 
Pope John Paul II never ruled against altar girls, he may have said no in his diocese but he did not make it a discipline for the whole Latin Church.

Pope Benedict has allowed both to continue.

Your welcome.
Would this be better: Pope Paul VI ruled against CITH, Pope John Paul II strongly advised against altar girls, Pope Benedict XVI only distributes Holy Communion to those who kneel before the Blessed Sacrament. Pope Benedict XVI also said the ‘spirit of Vatican II’ the justification for changes like CITH and altar girls was misinterpreted.

You are most welcome.
 
To tell you the truth, I am very mixed up on the whole issue. I love the old rite of the Church and want the authentic teaching of the apostles. I however am lost in this battle of modernists and traditionalists. Its hard to discern who is telling the truth so when I side with the Pope…I am told that I am still wrong. But even if I wanted the traditional rite and teaching of the Church, it is not available to me through any means for there is no Mass in my area and I am not aware of the books that clearly articulate the Faith as taught by the Apostoles and the Church until the Council of Vatican II.
A book titled This Is The Faith is a good start, and was written before all the fuss, so it’s not biased.
 
Pope John Paul II never ruled against altar girls, he may have said no in his diocese but he did not make it a discipline for the whole Latin Church.

Pope Benedict has allowed both to continue.
He would need the cooperation of bishops to stop it. That would be hard to get.

But then he would need their cooperation to assign the canonical status to the SSPX as well. This will also be hard to get.
 
He would need the cooperation of bishops to stop it. That would be hard to get.
PV any talk of disobedience must remain focused on the SSPX, not on the other clergy. They get a free ticket. You know that 😉
 
He would need the cooperation of bishops to stop it. That would be hard to get.

But then he would need their cooperation to assign the canonical status to the SSPX as well. This will also be hard to get.
Actually, the Holy Father does not need the cooperation or agreement of the bishops to give the Society canonical status. Once he gives it, they must accept it. Not to accept it is called suppression. No bishop has the authority to suppress what is canonically established.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Actually, the Holy Father does not need the cooperation or agreement of the bishops to give the Society canonical status. Once he gives it, they must accept it. Not to accept it is called suppression. No bishop has the authority to suppress what is canonically established.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Just as he would not need the bishops to make a change in the Code of Canon Law.
 
In the quote I listed above, the Catholic Church is shown to be in a continual state of sacrilege. (The Mass is the perpetual Sacrifice of Calvary and the Mass to day is sacriligious). The SSPX could help others understand their relationship to the Catholic Church better if they would no constantly paint themselves in apposition to the Catholic Church. I am a firm believer that Catholics here need to exercise a little benefit of the doubt when it comes to the SSPX, but by the same token, the SSPX has no business making some of the divisive and intolerant statements that they do.

I guess if the SSPX wants more respect and understanding, if they want Catholics to give them the benefit of the doubt, then they themselves should “do unto others as they would have others do unto them.”
Very difficult to tell someone that who was subjected to a female baptist preacher preaching during the Mass. To someone who heard a priest defending his homosexual relationship (prior to entering the seminary, one hopes) from the Sanctuary. To someone who heard in another Sermon that it doesn’t matter if Mary was assumed into heaven or not. To someone whose prayer was interrupted on a regular basis during the Agnus Dei by an overly zealous usher who insisted that I pass along the sign of peace. To someone who was told in the Confessional that onanism is not a sin, and the Church ought to reconsider the teaching. To someone who sat through all verses and choruses of “The Cat’s in the Cradle” sung solo by the Priest in lieu of a homily on Father’s Day.

These occurred in several different Parishes over the last two or three years of my life in the Diocesan Churches in Texas, Florida and South Carolina. Certainly not confined to a single Priest, Parish, Diocese, or even geographical area. Of course, I also did encounter some very Holy and Reverant Priests along the way, and was grateful. Until my job transferred me again. How many of the Faithful, I wonder, well-intentioned and sincere, were mislead by these same men.

There are no problems. Everything’s fine. No danger whatsoever of losing the Faith.
 
Very difficult to tell someone that who was subjected to a female baptist preacher preaching during the Mass.
It is not difficult. Anecdotes do not make theology and extreme anectdotes make for bad decisions. The crazy stuff you describe is *not *what is being called sacrilege. The Mass itself, properly done, is being called a sacrilege. According to this SSPX statement, those that attend are objectively sinning just for attending Mass. This is as crazy the other way as the stuff you describe. The SSPX simply must discontinue this condemnation of others in areas that excede what the Church teaches.
 
It is not difficult. Anecdotes do not make theology and extreme anectdotes make for bad decisions. The crazy stuff you describe is *not *what is being called sacrilege. The Mass itself, properly done, is being called a sacrilege. According to this SSPX statement, those that attend are objectively sinning just for attending Mass. This is as crazy the other way as the stuff you describe. The SSPX simply must discontinue this condemnation of others in areas that excede what the Church teaches.
And what changed about 40 years ago which opened the doors to such crazy stuff?

The SSPX must simply continue to teach the Faith our grand parents were taught and received.

And your take on the objective sin is incorrect. It is to those who see the differences and dilutions of the Faith in the New Mass but celebrate it anyway who are sinning against what they know to be truth. The rank and file who don’t see or don’t know the difference are not. It is not to them that that writing is addressed.
 
Just as he would not need the bishops to make a change in the Code of Canon Law.
BINGO! 👍

That’s why Canon Lawyers will tell you that using Canon Law to fight the pope is like throwing pillows in a nuclear war. The man who made the law can interpret it and change it without the consent of the governed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Actually, the Holy Father does not need the cooperation or agreement of the bishops to give the Society canonical status. Once he gives it, they must accept it. Not to accept it is called suppression. No bishop has the authority to suppress what is canonically established.
I guess I was making a judgement based on the threatened schism by some bishops prior to the 2007 SP.
 
The Mass itself, properly done, is being called a sacrilege.
I have heard this from a few SSPX attendees as well as non-SSPX attendees of the EF. Yet, what’s strange is that most of them wouldn’t hesitate to go to a NO priest for confession. Go figure.
 
It is very unfortunate that the words: sacrilege, banal, liberal and modernist are often thrown around ever so lightly. We should be ashamed of ourselves for the anger and hatred that we generate amongst ourselves, because of our carelessness in speech.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
On this point you have to be very careful not to confuse people. Let’s break it down into small pieces
  1. Archbishop Lefebvre did violate Church law when he ordained four bishops. The Society and the Archbishop claim that they were in a state of emergency and they claim fear.
For newcomers to this debate, the canon law in question is in canons 1323, 1324 +1321. Find the complete text at vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
Can. 1323 The following are not subject to a penalty when they have violated a law or precept: … 4/ a person who acted coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or due to necessity or grave inconvenience unless the act is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;
num: Mgr Lefebvre explained that he was under grave fear, based on the situation of the Church at that time, that if he did not maintain the SSPX against the tidal wave of error that was engulfing the Church; then he, being not a private citizen but a Bishop charged with continuing the Apostolic Succession under pain of mortal sin, would be guilty of dereliction of duty. This fear may or may not have been justified (I personally believe it was) but, right or wrong, it was his honest opinion. Therefore he was, according to Canon Law, exempt from penalty.
7/ a person who without negligence thought that one of the circumstances mentioned in nn. 4 or 5 was present.
num: A very interesting paragraph. Look carefully, and you will see that **it endows a subjective opinion with the force of law. ** This kind of legislation is not normal jurisprudence for the very reason that it makes the law unenforceable. The SSPX and their sympathisers have reiterated this from the very beginning. This was not in the Old Code of Canon Law. Mgr Lefebvre (and others) opposed the New Code! But, loyal sons of the Church as they were, once it was promulgated in 1983 they accepted it! Now, in 1988, they were perfectly entitled to invoke it.
Can. 1324 §1. The perpetrator of a violation is not exempt from a penalty, but the penalty established by law or precept must be tempered or a penance employed in its place if the delict was committed:–
5/ by a person who was coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or due to necessity or grave inconvenience if the delict is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;
8/ by a person who thought in culpable error that one of the circumstances mentioned in ⇒ can. 1323, nn. 4 or 5 was present;
num: Mark well! Even if the accused ought to have known better, if he thought the matter was serious enough, he is indemnified against the ultimate penalty of excommunication, and some lesser penalty or a penance must, under the law, be substituted…
10/ by a person who acted without full imputability provided that the imputability was grave.
That was dealt with in the paragraph above. The SSPX are exempted from full imputability under the law and hence are released from the ‘normal’ penalty by this provision of Canon Law.
§3. In the circumstances mentioned in §1, ** the accused is not bound by a latae sententiae** penalty.
Well, that is precisely the penalty that was hurled against Mgr Lefebvre and the others in a newspaper article that ***did not have a Vatican protocol number *** and hence was not an official document carrying the force of law, but only the personal opinion of the author (who was not identified as the Pope).

There are about half a dozen reasons, therefore, why these alleged excommunications were null and void from the beginning.
Pope John Paul II responded that these canons did not apply in this situation.
But that is exactly what he did not do. In fact, to this very day no official Vatican document or source has answered the point made by the SSPX. What Pope John Paul II did was to ignore the objection. But no Court of Law on the planet would accept this.
Let me give an analogy. In Ireland, it is illegal to park where there is a double yellow line. Except on a Sunday, when parking laws do not apply.
Suppose I get a parking ticket for parking on a yellow line, and I protest that the alleged offence occurred on a Sunday. And suppose that, instead of the fine being rescinded without further ado, or without my being invited to Circuit Court to plead my case, the objection was ignored and I was simply told to pay up!

In fact, the one and only ***official *** action taken on the matter was Pope Benedict’s Motu Proprio that quietly lifted the decree of excommunication, without – let it be noted – requiring one single retraction from the SSPX. To me that speaks volumes.
 
And your take on the objective sin is incorrect. It is to those who see the differences and dilutions of the Faith in the New Mass but celebrate it anyway who are sinning against what they know to be truth. The rank and file who don’t see or don’t know the difference are not. It is not to them that that writing is addressed.
That is why I said objective sin. Still, we have the SSPX from one side of the mouth saying the Mass is valid and from the other side it is a sacrilege and their adherents better not attend under pain of sin. Why? The most cynical answer would be that it is a cultish manipulation to make sure their membership and money stay high. A less cynical answer eludes me.

In any case, the problem remains. Those that speak ill of the SSPX should not be exaggerating the problem and going beyond what the Church is saying. In short, they need to be more charitable to the SSPX and their position than the SSPX is being toward the Catholic Church.

I found the statement on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass simply appalling.
 
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