SSPX VS Eastern Catholics

[maria29]

**I am curious for those who do go to SSPX “masses” or Churches and if these services are considered illicit…Is it better to go to a Eastern Catholic service such as the Melkites or the Byzantine rite? I have found the beauty and the reverence of their masses amazing. As well I am not judged because I do not wear a head covering.

Or do you not consider these churches in line and part of the Catholic Church? I am just interested in hearing other peoples thoughts about it**

 

[Deacon_Ed]

I am curious for those who do go to SSPX “masses” or Churches and if these services are considered illicit…Is it better to go to a Eastern Catholic service such as the Melkites or the Byzantine rite? I have found the beauty and the reverence of their masses amazing. As well I am not judged because I do not wear a head covering.

Maria29,

Just a small correction. Melkites are Byzantine Rite. Were you thinking of the Ruthenians who call themselves “Byzantine Catholics”? Also, our liturgies are not called the “Mass” but, rather, the Divine Liturgy. The term “Mass” is used for some Eastern Catholic Liturgies, but not for any of the 14 Churches that follow the Byzantine Rite.

Deacon Ed

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

**I am curious for those who do go to SSPX “masses” or Churches and if these services are considered illicit…Is it better to go to a Eastern Catholic service such as the Melkites or the Byzantine rite? I have found the beauty and the reverence of their masses amazing. As well I am not judged because I do not wear a head covering.

Or do you not consider these churches in line and part of the Catholic Church? I am just interested in hearing other peoples thoughts about it**

Why should they abandon the Latin Rite at the expense of Paul VI?

(but yes there are some who have gone East rather than in ‘schism’ )

And why is the SSPX Mass in quotations?

Does it seem different than the regular Mass for you?

Also…St. Paul was very critical of head coverings as well.

You will find that the FSSP as well as the entire Catholic Church before Vatican II was equally critical concerning head coverings.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

You will find that the FSSP as well as the entire Catholic Church before Vatican II was equally critical concerning head coverings.

Not so, Missa. I sing in the choir with a 78 year old German war bride, been a good Catholic all of her life. She told me last weekend that women did not cover their heads at Mass in Germany, that it was something she had to get used to when she came to the US.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

Not so, Missa. I sing in the choir with a 78 year old German war bride, been a good Catholic all of her life. She told me last weekend that women did not cover their heads at Mass in Germany, that it was something she had to get used to when she came to the US.

Well thats something Germany needs to address.

If it is a custom overthere…thats okay but questionable.

Women need to have their heads covered.

So saith St. Paul.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Well thats something Germany needs to address.

If it is a custom overthere…thats okay but questionable.

Women need to have their heads covered.

So saith St. Paul.

The Church stated that it was a disciplinary matter, not a matter of faith and morals. The Church is 2000 years old and you’re, what? Hmmm, I think I’ll go with the legitimate authority of the Church.

 

[parvenu74]

Well thats something Germany needs to address.

Then again, if it’s a local custom that goes back to time immemorial, they get a local indult to continue as they are. Then again, where in Germany was this? In Bavaria where the Catholic Faith is and always was strong, or in the north (where the protestants have been dominant for 500 years)?

 

[dumspirospero]

Kirk…in all fairness, it is not like Germany set the standard during those years for the rest of the world to follow…they were too busy starting world wars and committing widespread murder to worry about head coverings at Church etc…and no I am not a racist…I am part German…and Irish too…but I can’t let my heritage influence my way of thinking…what they did was wrong.

Not so, Missa. I sing in the choir with a 78 year old German war bride, been a good Catholic all of her life. She told me last weekend that women did not cover their heads at Mass in Germany, that it was something she had to get used to when she came to the US.

 

[LRThunder]

**I am curious for those who do go to SSPX “masses” or Churches and if these services are considered illicit…Is it better to go to a Eastern Catholic service such as the Melkites or the Byzantine rite? I have found the beauty and the reverence of their masses amazing. As well I am not judged because I do not wear a head covering.

Or do you not consider these churches in line and part of the Catholic Church? I am just interested in hearing other peoples thoughts about it**

To answer your question, Eastern Catholic Churches are in communion with Rome, so it is definitely permissible to go to them. The SSPX is in schism, so it’s not permissible, or recommended to attend them.

If you’re wanting to attend Tridentine Latin Mass, then try to find a parish that has FSSP priests. They celebrate the TLM and they’re in full communion with Rome.

 

[dumspirospero]

How come that argument only works in favor of liberals and modernists…it seems like as soon as a traditionalist uses that same argument, it is considered null and void…Kirk…please keep in mind that I have known you a long time on these boards and I am not in any way calling you a liberal or modernists…because I know you are not…I am just asking you an objective question, hoping someone with your intellect can answer it for me. God Bless

The Church stated that it was a disciplinary matter, not a matter of faith and morals. .

 

[Cristiano]

Not so, Missa. I sing in the choir with a 78 year old German war bride, been a good Catholic all of her life. She told me last weekend that women did not cover their heads at Mass in Germany, that it was something she had to get used to when she came to the US.

I would be careful in generalizing from just one person. I grew up in Italy and it was made very clear that women were supposed to cover their heads, and that everybody was supposed to dress in a dignified manner. I was a kid but I remember people talking about the “scandalous” attires showing up at Mass in the late 60’ early 70’s The subjective concept of dignified dressing could have changed with time, but head covering is quite a specific description to me.

 

[Genesis315]

How come that argument only works in favor of liberals and modernists…it seems like as soon as a traditionalist uses that same argument, it is considered null and void…

Can you provide an example? I’m just curious, I’ve never heard that complaint before.

 

[TNT]

Not so, Missa. I sing in the choir with a 78 year old German war bride, been a good Catholic all of her life. She told me last weekend that women did not cover their heads at Mass in Germany, that it was something she had to get used to when she came to the US.

Germany has a heavy Lutheran influence in its religious culture.
Lutherans also do not wear headcoverings.
It is an exception along with Switzerland I believe.
And speaking of the Man-Martin Luther, I like this quote in regard to Our holding to Headcovering:
“If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the Word of God; except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Him. Where the battle rages there the loyalty of the soldier is proved;”
M. Luther

 

[dumspirospero]

Was it a matter of faith and morals to strip the Churches…remove the altar rails…to change baptism to immersion…to remove the statues…the have women remove their head coverings…to say the Mass in the vernacular…etc…NO IT WAS NOT…so when a nostalgic, traditional Catholic argues why it has changed, they autmatically become Novus Ordo bashers and haters and they are lumped together with sedes…So why do we get exiled for only desiring to have the Mass and our Churches like they were prior to VII? Why do we get labled as Pope haters and schismatics? Why is it perfectly ok for the other side to claim it isn’t a matter of faith and morals, so they can do what they want…Well, if that is the case, then why does it take everything short of hair lipping the pope, just to get an indult within most diocese? Afterall…we are not trying to change the deposit of faith…which a lot of liberals and modernists seemed to be embraced for doing.

Can you provide an example? I’m just curious, I’ve never heard that complaint before.

 

[TNT]

  			Originally Posted by **JKirkLVNV** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1864025#post1864025) 				
  		*The Church stated that it was a disciplinary matter, not a matter of faith and morals. .*

And this makes a good point which is:
If I only do that which is required, what am I but a form of legalist.
I am required to attend Mass on Sunday. I am not required to attend Mass on the common weekday. Therefore let us all refrain from Mass on weekdays.
I am never required to pray the Rosary, therefore do not pray the Rosary.
No one is forced to wear headcovering, so it is a useless practice.
If Catholic practice were reduced to that which is required, there would be little left of the Catholic Faith.

 

[AJV]

Germany has a heavy Lutheran influence in its religious culture.
Lutherans also do not wear headcoverings.
It is an exception along with Switzerland I believe.
And speaking of the Man-Martin Luther, I like this quote in regard to Our holding to Headcovering:
“If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the Word of God; except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Him. Where the battle rages there the loyalty of the soldier is proved;”
M. Luther

Very interested TNT in the reference for the Lutheran headcovering issue.Veiling was mentioned in the Confession of Ausburg for example,and elsewhere like Luther’s Sermon on Jan 5 1525

 

[Jakub]

I attend where there is reverence and respect for the Lord…be it Orthodox, Eastern Catholic or a SSPX chapel…

I’m not there to glorify man or myself, nor to be entertained…

james

 

[Unfinished]

And this makes a good point which is:
If I only do that which is required, what am I but a form of legalist.
I am required to attend Mass on Sunday. I am not required to attend Mass on the common weekday. Therefore let us all refrain from Mass on weekdays.
I am never required to pray the Rosary, therefore do not pray the Rosary.
No one is forced to wear headcovering, so it is a useless practice.
If Catholic practice were reduced to that which is required, there would be little left of the Catholic Faith.

I suppose someone will come back with “If you want to wear a head covering, then wear one! No one is stopping you!”

Of course, 90% of Catholics only do the bare minimum, so we should set the bar high.

 

[Unfinished]

Was it a matter of faith and morals to strip the Churches…remove the altar rails…to change baptism to immersion…to remove the statues…the have women remove their head coverings…to say the Mass in the vernacular…etc…NO IT WAS NOT…so when a nostalgic, traditional Catholic argues why it has changed, they autmatically become Novus Ordo bashers and haters and they are lumped together with sedes…So why do we get exiled for only desiring to have the Mass and our Churches like they were prior to VII? Why do we get labled as Pope haters and schismatics? Why is it perfectly ok for the other side to claim it isn’t a matter of faith and morals, so they can do what they want…Well, if that is the case, then why does it take everything short of hair lipping the pope, just to get an indult within most diocese? Afterall…we are not trying to change the deposit of faith…which a lot of liberals and modernists seemed to be embraced for doing.

Someone said something on another thread a few days ago that really stuck with me. “We are like dogs at a table begging for scraps of our own tradition.”

 

[TNT]

Very interested TNT in the reference for the Lutheran headcovering issue.Veiling was mentioned in the Confession of Ausburg for example,and elsewhere like Luther’s Sermon on Jan 5 1525

I said Lutherans ie those who declare themselves Lutheran, NOT M. LUTHER in 1525ad. I never said M. LUTHER overthrew headcovings.

BTW:
Calvin also has a long (and insightfull) apologia for headcovering.