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Neil_Anthony
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Which is better for TLM, FSSP or SSPX?
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historybrat
Guest
I don’t know that one is better than the other. But I voted for the FSSP because they are fully in communion with Rome, have the support of the pope, and work within the church change what is wrong instead of attacking her from without.
I know some people will disagree, but I don’t think the SSPX meets those requirements. I think the FSSP is more likely to appeal to a broader base because of those requirements. I’ve read many of the discussion threads here, the SSPX webiste, a variety of books and articles about the SSPX, and I’m still not 100% sure on them. I think many other Catholics feel the same, and for the SSPX its going to be hard to justify themselves when you have organizations like the FSSP which can do what the SSPX does but with the support of Rome. So until the SSPX comes back into full communion with Rome, I think there is little they can do to help spread the TLM. (However, I will give them credit in some places for having kept the TLM going)
Historybrat
I know some people will disagree, but I don’t think the SSPX meets those requirements. I think the FSSP is more likely to appeal to a broader base because of those requirements. I’ve read many of the discussion threads here, the SSPX webiste, a variety of books and articles about the SSPX, and I’m still not 100% sure on them. I think many other Catholics feel the same, and for the SSPX its going to be hard to justify themselves when you have organizations like the FSSP which can do what the SSPX does but with the support of Rome. So until the SSPX comes back into full communion with Rome, I think there is little they can do to help spread the TLM. (However, I will give them credit in some places for having kept the TLM going)
Historybrat
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mikellie
Guest
I, too, voted for FSSP.
SSPX is problematic because it is in schism (even if many of its priests and members have good intentions). I looked at this group closely and worry that SSPX will always be outside of the Church. Once groups like these get autonomy, it’s very hard to get them back into communion with Rome.
Also, many of the adherents are not older people familiar with pre-Vatican II. My understanding is that many are younger families.
I also worry because some people argue for SSPX and/or the TLM in general because they want something different. The appeal may be that it is transgressive.
I am very concerned about the liberal influences within our Church, but I don’t know that SSPX is in good position to counter them. I am also concerned that our Church pays more attention to “progressives” than to “traditionalists”.
Bottom line, most priests today don’t know the TLM and are having to be trained in our diocese.
(I’d take FSSP over the Oblates of St. Francis DeSales any day of the week. They are very liberal and have speakers like Megan McKenna give pseudo-homilies. I’m not sure why we can’t work something out for SSPX.)
SSPX is problematic because it is in schism (even if many of its priests and members have good intentions). I looked at this group closely and worry that SSPX will always be outside of the Church. Once groups like these get autonomy, it’s very hard to get them back into communion with Rome.
Also, many of the adherents are not older people familiar with pre-Vatican II. My understanding is that many are younger families.
I also worry because some people argue for SSPX and/or the TLM in general because they want something different. The appeal may be that it is transgressive.
I am very concerned about the liberal influences within our Church, but I don’t know that SSPX is in good position to counter them. I am also concerned that our Church pays more attention to “progressives” than to “traditionalists”.
Bottom line, most priests today don’t know the TLM and are having to be trained in our diocese.
(I’d take FSSP over the Oblates of St. Francis DeSales any day of the week. They are very liberal and have speakers like Megan McKenna give pseudo-homilies. I’m not sure why we can’t work something out for SSPX.)
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BobP123
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We need all orders that produce TLM priests.
I don’t understand the need to make a game out of this.
I don’t understand the need to make a game out of this.
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Pious_Mat
Guest
Although I greatly appreciate what the SSPX has done to preserve Sacred Tradition, I have little regard for Catholics who, even after the Summorum Pontificum, refuse to make any concessions to the Holy Father. Logically, there are two options for them to justify their anti-VII positions–declare the Holy See vacant, or try and disprove the Infallibility of the Pope. They do niether–instead they take the passive-aggressive stance of disobeying the Pope, and then saying they have no problem with him. This is the same tactic that pro-choice, pro-gay marriage “Catholics”.
You can rant and rave and give me all the pamphlets in the world, if a priest who isn’t 100% faithful to the Pope, I don’t want anything to do with you, no matter how many beliefs we have in common.
You can rant and rave and give me all the pamphlets in the world, if a priest who isn’t 100% faithful to the Pope, I don’t want anything to do with you, no matter how many beliefs we have in common.
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Walking_Home
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I agree. I don’t think we need another SSPX bashing thread to start up.
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lak611
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You forgot about Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. They are in full communion in the Church also, and they offer the TLM.
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BobP123
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As well as the Cantius order. And all the priests who are studying to say the TLM on their own.
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Neil_Anthony
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I’m sorry if the way I phrased it, it seemed like I was making a game of it. I guess what I’m really wondering, and should have asked directly, is why, when there are groups like FSSP and latin masses available, why would people still belong to SSPX?
Although, looking at the poll tells me that its only a small percentage, so I feel better about it now.
Although, looking at the poll tells me that its only a small percentage, so I feel better about it now.
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Dempsey1919
Guest
The FSSP because they are in communion with Rome and are orthodox in their beliefs.
I am grateful to the SSPX because without them, we probably wouldn’t have the Tridentine Mass now. They trained Priests and celebrated this Mass in times when it was almost completely abolished in the Church.
However, I can’t see them being reconciled with Rome now. They have spent too long away from the Church and are used to total independence now. They are like the Old Catholics who left the Church after Vatican I. While I sympathise with them, they were wrong for disobeying the Pope.
I am grateful to the SSPX because without them, we probably wouldn’t have the Tridentine Mass now. They trained Priests and celebrated this Mass in times when it was almost completely abolished in the Church.
However, I can’t see them being reconciled with Rome now. They have spent too long away from the Church and are used to total independence now. They are like the Old Catholics who left the Church after Vatican I. While I sympathise with them, they were wrong for disobeying the Pope.
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SemperFidelis
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I agree. I am supportive of any group that are non-sedevacantists and support the TLM. ICRSS, FSSP, SSPX, Canons Regular of St. John Cantius, Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem, etc. You can find a whole group of Traditional Societies here:
thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com
Just scroll down the page a little and check out the right side. They are all good in my opinion.
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SemperFidelis
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You probably won’t find too many SSPX’ers on this board, but there are plently out there (Almost 720 Churches, and over one million people).
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Sure
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The New Liturgical Movement website is AWESOME. They have great resources on the OF and EF of the Mass.
One note to Semper’s post, they do NOT list the SSPX as one of the traditional orders or societies because they only list orders and societies that are in union with the Church.
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SemperFidelis
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I know that, but I still have great respect for them regardless. There is no reason we should show more respect for pagans than the SSPX. That site is awesome though.
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Sure
Guest
They have 103 churches/chapels in the US and get what maybe 500 people per Mass? That gives them maybe 51,500 people in the US. So, they are about 0.0797% of the Catholic population in the US. That means that 99.92% of US Catholics are NOT in the SSPX.
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Sure
Guest
I totally agree that we should not show more respect for pagans than the SSPX, after all, pagans are not Catholic. And I agree on that site. I frequent that site more than any other (even this one) and, yet there are still some on these fora who think of me as a modernist.
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parvenu74
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And all 100% of that 0.797% believes in some pretty controversial things, like the True Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. How many of the 99.92% believe in that (I think the latest polls show that only about half of American Catholics believe in the True Presence)? Or how about “Outside the Church there is no salvation?” If you reject that you’re out of the Church and cannot be saved. And how about the teaching authority of the Church and the authority of the Pope? If the SSPX rejected that last part they wouldn’t be constantly in discussions with Rome to get their canonical standing straightened out. Just look at the reaction of “regular bishops” to Summorum Pontificum. Some of them are openly saying that the Pope has no authority over them in their dioceses (check out Father Z’s blog for more scoop on this point… he’s got a running catalog of what the various bishops are saying and doing)! Who is rejecting the authority of Rome now?
I’m not saying the SSPX is the only hope for the Church – they don’t even say as much – but they are far from being the pariahs they are frequently made out to be.
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SemperFidelis
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Very good points. Thanks for your insight.
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parvenu74
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Oh but such threads are so fashionable here… and the moderators never shut them down, either!
(Take it easy, Jean Anthony – I’m only kidding…)
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historybrat
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I too have a lot of respect for the clergy and laity of the SSPX. It has been my experience that they tend to be strong in their beliefs and of course those beliefs are orthodox. I would hate to see this thread become a SSPX bashing thread. However, I do think it is possible, difficult of course, but possible to have a respectful dialog. I do wonder why they will not come back into full communion with the church? On their website they claim to totally support the pope, but I’ve read articles by SSPX clergy who claim Rome has no authority over them. This doesn’t match up in my mind. That’s why I voted for the FSSP. I have a clearer picture of them and they are in complete communion.
Historybrat
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