SSPX vs. FSSP

[Sure]

And all 100% of that 0.797% believes in some pretty controversial things, like the True Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. How many of the 99.92% believe in that (I think the latest polls show that only about half of American Catholics believe in the True Presence)? Or how about “Outside the Church there is no salvation?” If you reject that you’re out of the Church and cannot be saved. And how about the teaching authority of the Church and the authority of the Pope? If the SSPX rejected that last part they wouldn’t be constantly in discussions with Rome to get their canonical standing straightened out. Just look at the reaction of “regular bishops” to Summorum Pontificum. Some of them are openly saying that the Pope has no authority over them in their dioceses (check out Father Z’s blog for more scoop on this point… he’s got a running catalog of what the various bishops are saying and doing)! Who is rejecting the authority of Rome now?

I’m not saying the SSPX is the only hope for the Church – they don’t even say as much – but they are far from being the pariahs they are frequently made out to be.

You’re right, we shouldn’t get too off topic here. You say that the SSPX is always in discussion with Rome, yet on their website they claim to be fully in union with Rome. If they’re in union, then why do they have to have discussions about it???

Also, the bishops who deny the Pope’s authority when it comes to SP are out of line and should be corrected and reprimanded if needed.

 

[Jo_Benedict]

Oh but such threads are so fashionable here… and the moderators never shut them down, either!

(Take it easy, Jean Anthony – I’m only kidding…)

Please keep in mind that discussion of moderator actions is not allowed on the public boards. Neither is it allowed to poke at the moderators, publicly or privately.

For the record though, Jean Anthony is now the moderator of the Philosophy sub-forum. I am the moderator of Traditional Catholicism.

 

[Melanie01]

Welll…am I the token attendee to a SPPX chapel then on the board…hehehe it would be like being a token Mick on the Baptist Board of America…but is it scarier?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Welll…am I the token attendee to a SPPX chapel then on the board…hehehe it would be like being a token Mick on the Baptist Board of America…but is it scarier?

Just curious Melanie, in your area is there also an ‘extraordinary form’ mass available? Are the people at the SSPX mass more orthodox in general?

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

And all 100% of that 0.797% believes in some pretty controversial things, like the True Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. How many of the 99.92% believe in that (I think the latest polls show that only about half of American Catholics believe in the True Presence)?

With as many polls as we have today, I’v always thought it would be interesting to have a poll of Traditional Latin-Mass-only-Catholics, and compare the results with Novus Ordo Churches.

If you polled Traditional Catholics you would probably find close to 100% who held to the Church teaching with respect to the True Presence, purgatory, the Mass as a sacrifice, abortion, contraception, male only Priesthood, etc… You would probably also find a very high percent who believed in the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation. I’d say you’d be hard pressed to find any in the Novus Ordo who believed that.

It makes you wonder, how did the Traditional Latin-Mass-only-Catholics manage to keep the faith during the last 40 years of apostasy, while the polls show that the average Catholic in the Novus Ordo Church did not?

It’s interesting, at La Sallette (an approved apparition) Mary said the Church would be in exclipse. Here’s a question: During an eclipse, where is the light? It is on the fringes.

Thankfully, with the election of our new Pope, there are signs tha things are beginning to move back in the right direction. Hopefully in the coming years everyone will be a Traditional Catholic again, like they were for the first 1965 years.

And for my two cents on the SSPX and FSSP. I am thankful for both of them. I think they both play an important part in Divine Providence.

What some people may not know is that at the level of the Priests, the SSPX and FSSP are good friends, in constant communication, and on the same side. They are on the same team and working for the same goals - the restoration of the Mass and the Faith that goes along with it.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Many within the Church have no problems with embracing Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims as friends…but these same people hate the SSPX. I can’t understand how they can slander these Catholics and praise the followers of other religions. It makes no sense to me.

It should be remembered that the SSPX are indeed Catholic in their beliefs and practices. They just disagree with some aspects of the modern Church. Remember that there is a hierarchy of beliefs and that the SSPX believes in 99.9% of these.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Remember that there is a hierarchy of beliefs and that the SSPX believes in 99.9% of these.

The percentage is just a little bit higher than that. They actually believe 100% of what the Church has always taught - not only the de fide dogmas, but also the teachings of the universal ordinary magisterium.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Many within the Church have no problems with embracing Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims as friends…but these same people hate the SSPX. I can’t understand how they can slander these Catholics and praise the followers of other religions. It makes no sense to me.

It’s just a case of disagreeing most strongly with those you understand the most. Like how we can get all flustered arguing with protestants, but when we debate religion with, say, Jews or Buddhists, it isn’t nearly as personal… because we don’t expect to agree on anything.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

If you polled Traditional Catholics you would probably find close to 100% who held to the Church teaching with respect to the True Presence, purgatory, the Mass as a sacrifice, abortion, contraception, male only Priesthood, etc… You would probably also find a very high percent who believed in the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation. I’d say you’d be hard pressed to find any in the Novus Ordo who believed that.

I’d also add some questions to check for signs of religious superstition, just to make it fair. Also, questions about how much these people go above and beyond the letter of the (church moral) law in their lives.

I often wonder why, if Catholics were so much better back in the good old days, why, when given the OPTION of eating meat on friday, very few of them bothered to continue to do any special type of abstinance or fasting or work of mercy on Friday. Like a bunch of kids who were told that they could now eat candy before dinner. Sometimes I think this is just a case of people glorifying their memories of their childhood. The religion I see in older people who were catechised before Vatican II is often full of superstition and all about following little rules to get points to show st. Peter at the gates.

 

[parvenu74]

I’d also add some questions to check for signs of religious superstition, just to make it fair. Also, questions about how much these people go above and beyond the letter of the (church moral) law in their lives.

Could you give some examples of “religious superstition” and “going above and beyond the letter of the law” please?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Could you give some examples of “religious superstition” and “going above and beyond the letter of the law” please?

Things like burying statues of St. Joseph in the yard to sell your house. Drinking holy water. I’m not actually an expert. You’d have to ask your priest if you think you’re doing superstitious things.

Going above the letter of the law… like how much do people do acts of corporeal or spiritual mercy that aren’t actually required. Like for example not eating meat on friday, or even going above and beyond that. Giving more to the church than is required. Giving more to the poor than is required. Praying when there is no indulgence involved, just to get to know God better.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

"parvenu74:

Could you give some examples of “religious superstition” and “going above and beyond the letter of the law” please?

Things like burying statues of St. Joseph in the yard to sell your house. Drinking holy water. I’m not actually an expert. You’d have to ask your priest if you think you’re doing superstitious things.

Going above the letter of the law… like how much do people do acts of corporeal or spiritual mercy that aren’t actually required. Like for example not eating meat on friday, or even going above and beyond that. Giving more to the church than is required. Giving more to the poor than is required. Praying when there is no indulgence involved, just to get to know God better.

Not eating mean on Friday, and doing acts of penance? Praying for unselfish reason, to get closer to God? You consider those to be acts of superstition? It sounds like you are saying that anything above and beyond the very minimum that is required is superstition.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Not eating mean on Friday, and doing acts of penance? Praying for unselfish reason, to get closer to God? You consider those to be acts of superstition? It sounds like you are saying that anything above and beyond the very minimum that is required is superstition.

LOL, no, I’m saying there are two things I’d like to add to the poll

1. questions to check for superstitious beliefs (do you drink holy water, etc.)
2. questions to check how much this person goes beyond the letter of the law (this is a good thing…)

My point is that for all the bad things in the church nowadays, there are some good things. They got rid of a lot of superstition, and while there is less emphasis on following the rules, there is more emphasis on going above and beyond the rules in some areas. So there is good mixed with bad in each group.

 

[MMLJ]

They are like the Old Catholics who left the Church after Vatican I. .

Could you please elaborate on this comment?

Thank you and GOD bless.

 

[Sure]

Could you please elaborate on this comment?

Thank you and GOD bless.

Look up “old catholic” on Wikipedia and you can find a lot of information on their history. Their are all sorts of “catholic” churches that have split off from that group.

It kind of shows why it is so important to get the SSPX back in union. If they don’t, it is likely to continue to splinter into different sects just as the “old catholic” church did. After all, there have already been a few different groups that have split off from the SSPX.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Look up “old catholic” on Wikipedia and you can find a lot of information on their history. Their are all sorts of “catholic” churches that have split off from that group.

It kind of shows why it is so important to get the SSPX back in union. If they don’t, it is likely to continue to splinter into different sects just as the “old catholic” church did. After all, there have already been a few different groups that have split off from the SSPX.

I agree that the SSPX should be in Union, and many consider them not in schism nor excommunication (so are in Union) . However, I do not think that their fate will be as that of the Old Catholic churches. Their growing numbers and self sustainability are small signs that the SSPX is here and here to stay (a ‘Sign of the Times’?)

 

[Sure]

I agree that the SSPX should be in Union, and many consider them not in schism nor excommunication (so are in Union) . However, I do not think that their fate will be as that of the Old Catholic churches. Their growing numbers and self sustainability are small signs that the SSPX is here and here to stay (a ‘Sign of the Times’?)

I certainly hope that they will not go that way either. What is unfortunate is that once a group splits off from Rome as the SSPX has done, then inevitably different groups keep splitting off of that and so on and so on. Even in the relatively short history of the SSPX there have been numerous priests and groups of priests that have split off from their original split. First the SSPV, then numerous splinters off of that group including Anthony Cekada, other now “independant” priests, Lucian Pulvermacher (“Pius XIII”). It seems that once unity with the Catholic Church is broken, it continues to break over and over.

 

[EddieArent]

Could you please elaborate on this comment?

Thank you and GOD bless.

It’s a false statement. The ones truely split from the Church are the modernists. It’s a shame. Here for instance, the local Catholic Cathdral won’t allow the TLM but will allow Taize Prayer and ecumenical gatherings. They have become Protestants by accepting such liturgies (and doctrine) and are Catholic in name only. It’s a sad truth, but the truth never the less. This is not limited to the south, but all over the world as well. The SSPX should fight this crisis to the very end and maybe even consider consecrating at least one more bishop (e.g. for the SSJ in Ukraine, who now have six more priests this week after ordinations in Warszawa) for the good of the church.

As for the original discussion, I think the FSSP do a lot of good and the fruits have shown. It’s also good to see a priest of the FSSP finally assigned here in Florida (although located in ugly churches) but the Mass lives on here and that is the main thing.

 

[daniel_connolly]

Hey all,

I’m a SSPX’er but grew up in the Novus Ordo. Just wanted reply to a couple interesting quotes from the thread. The first one is…
…Logically, there are two options for them to justify their anti-VII positions–declare the Holy See vacant, or try and disprove the Infallibility of the Pope…

Vatican II was a PASTORAL council NOT AN INFALLIBLE one. It made NO pronouncements on dogmas and according to Canon Law, we are not obliged to ‘follow it’ like we do when a council decrees official things like the Council of Trent did when it said, ‘In response to this illness called the Protestant Reformation, we give you the Tridentine Mass, WHICH NO ONE CAN CHANGE, EVER…’ then, when the Novus Ordo went so far as to CHANGE THE WORDS OF THE CONSECRATION TO WORDS THAT JESUS NEVER SAID, well that seems like a problem (a major problem).

Then second quote from the thread is…

‘…You can rant and rave and give me all the pamphlets in the world, if a priest who isn’t 100% faithful to the Pope, I don’t want anything to do with you…’

The SSPX is faithful to the Catholic Faith, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Faith whose head is the Pope, was the Pope and always will be the pope. The problem is that the Church is in a dark period where the Pope does heretical stuff like the ‘Spirit of Assisi’. Check out the papal encyclical ‘The Syllabus of Errors’, and others, and learn why ecumenism is a false, non Catholic ideology that utterly destroys Catholicism. Interesting that one attendee of Vatican II called the Council “… A COUNTER SYLLABUS…”. yikes.

for a cool, non sensational video about this stuff check out
Why the New Mass and New Rite of Ordination are Invalid 2of5
on youtube.com

Our Lady of Fatima, ora pro nobis

 

[Neil_Anthony]

… the Council of Trent did when it said, ‘In response to this illness called the Protestant Reformation, we give you the Tridentine Mass, WHICH NO ONE CAN CHANGE, EVER…’

Please provide your reference for this quote from the Council of Trent.