SSPX vs. FSSP

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My point is that for all the bad things in the church nowadays, there are some good things. They got rid of a lot of superstition, and while there is less emphasis on following the rules, there is more emphasis on going above and beyond the rules in some areas. So there is good mixed with bad in each group.
You’re the one who suggested that there is/was a lot of superstition either in the Church or among traditionalists. I asked you to cite an example, and then you disclaim the very examples you cited. So I’ll ask you again: what are some examples of “Catholic superstition?”
 
You’re the one who suggested that there is/was a lot of superstition either in the Church or among traditionalists. I asked you to cite an example, and then you disclaim the very examples you cited. So I’ll ask you again: what are some examples of “Catholic superstition?”
See post #31 for examples of superstition.
 
I think drinking holy water is superstitious, especially if its stagnant from being in the bottle for months and months.
Well that’s YOUR opinion and some people believe otherwise. Do you feel it’s necessary to berate them for this?
 
Who’s berating?
You are, by the fact that you’re calling Catholics who are trying to be good Catholics superstitious. Those outside the Church might consider belief in the Real Presence, or praying to be superstitious. You might not take offense to this, but some people might.
 
You are, by the fact that you’re calling Catholics who are trying to be good Catholics superstitious. Those outside the Church might consider belief in the Real Presence, or praying to be superstitious. You might not take offense to this, but some people might.
I didn’t call anyone superstitious. Please provide a direct quote or retract your statement.
 
I didn’t call anyone superstitious. Please provide a direct quote or retract your statement.
Here’s you quote from earlier

“I’d also add some questions to check for signs of religious superstition, just to make it fair. Also, questions about how much these people go above and beyond the letter of the (church moral) law in their lives.”

To me, this sounds, like you’re basically accusing Traditional Catholics of being superstitious.

Here’s one more:

“Things like burying statues of St. Joseph in the yard to sell your house. Drinking holy water. I’m not actually an expert. You’d have to ask your priest if you think you’re doing superstitious things.”

Seems to me like you’re accusing or criticizing anyone who does these “things” as superstitious. Berate = to criticize. Whether you meant it to come across this way or not you’ve pretty much implied this in several of your posts.
 
I didn’t accuse any person of being superstitous. If you’re going to accuse Catholics who attend the Novus Ordo of all sorts of heresies, as in posts 17 and 18, you need to become less sensitive when people reply.
Here’s you quote from earlier

“I’d also add some questions to check for signs of religious superstition, just to make it fair. Also, questions about how much these people go above and beyond the letter of the (church moral) law in their lives.”

To me, this sounds, like you’re basically accusing Traditional Catholics of being superstitious.

Here’s one more:

“Things like burying statues of St. Joseph in the yard to sell your house. Drinking holy water. I’m not actually an expert. You’d have to ask your priest if you think you’re doing superstitious things.”

Seems to me like you’re accusing or criticizing anyone who does these “things” as superstitious. Berate = to criticize. Whether you meant it to come across this way or not you’ve pretty much implied this in several of your posts.
 
If you’re going to accuse Catholics who attend the Novus Ordo of all sorts of heresies, you need to become less sensitive when people reply.
THIS IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FALSEHOOD. Where did I EVER say anything of the sort? Now, who’s accusing?

P.S. I attend the Novus Ordo.
 
Dempsey1919
Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 550

Re: SSPX vs. FSSP

Many within the Church have no problems with embracing Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims as friends…but these same people hate the SSPX. I can’t understand how they can slander these Catholics and praise the followers of other religions. It makes no sense to me.

It should be remembered that the SSPX are indeed Catholic in their beliefs and practices. They just disagree with some aspects of the modern Church. Remember that there is a hierarchy of beliefs and that the SSPX believes in 99.9% of these.

Pax et Caritas​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1919
Remember that there is a hierarchy of beliefs and that the SSPX believes in 99.9% of these.

The percentage is just a little bit higher than that. They actually believe 100% of what the Church has always taught - not only the de fide dogmas, but also the teachings of the universal ordinary magisterium.

I support SSPX
  1. FSSP is not in our place. 😃
  2. SSPX did not compromise to the errors of V2
  3. SSPX is not excommunicated as schismatic
    FSSP as well…
  4. etc… im dizzy…ihave read to much today…sleepyzzz
between FSSP and SSPX, the keyword, for me is compromise.
Its not really disobedience, 🙂

Thank you!
God bless us all, Catholics!

Ave Maria!
 
Welcome…

Please pray that your group accepts condition #3, the ultimate authority of the Pope, if they truly beleive 100%

God Bless.
 
Welcome…

Please pray that your group accepts condition #3, the ultimate authority of the Pope, if they truly beleive 100%

God Bless.
They do (WE DO) ultimately accept the authority of the Pope, His Holines Pope Benedict XVI, but if the Pope will tell Us " Deny Jesus as your God" WE WILL ABSOLUTELY DISOBEY

That means the Pope is not infallible when he speaks in behalf of himself, he becomes infalleble when he uses ‘Ex Cathedra’ unfortunately he never do. But We do Accept him as our Pope.

Ave Maria!
  • not an official SSPX statement
 
Which is better for TLM, FSSP or SSPX?
I would prefer the FSSP anytime, just because they are in communion with Rome and any other traditional group. If the SSPX were in communion I would gladly join them.

The SSPX have (or had) good intentions. WIthout them there would probably be no traditional mass. Because without them there would be no FSSP. Now they have harden there hearts and are leaning toward a sedevacanist position, which is dangerous. They are not sedevacanist, but there are some in there. IF they ever do come into communion, no doubt there will be divisions, especially with Williamson. Lets keep praying my friends.

I’ve been trying to have an FSSP or Institute priest be our priest in residence in my church, because the priest who does say the mass is not from our parish and says some kind of “hybrid” mass. Which is why I think the SSPX Chapel is still full down the road. I believe if we have a FSSP or Institute priest, they will draw more of them

PRAY FOR ME AND MY PARISH!!!
 
I would prefer the FSSP anytime, just because they are in communion with Rome and any other traditional group. If the SSPX were in communion I would gladly join them.

The SSPX have (or had) good intentions. WIthout them there would probably be no traditional mass. Because without them there would be no FSSP. Now they have harden there hearts and are leaning toward a sedevacanist position, which is dangerous. They are not sedevacanist, but there are some in there. IF they ever do come into communion, no doubt there will be divisions, especially with Williamson. Lets keep praying my friends.

I’ve been trying to have an FSSP or Institute priest be our priest in residence in my church, because the priest who does say the mass is not from our parish and says some kind of “hybrid” mass. Which is why I think the SSPX Chapel is still full down the road. I believe if we have a FSSP or Institute priest, they will draw more of them

PRAY FOR ME AND MY PARISH!!!
This is the sort of brash, unthinking, cliched generalisation that helps noone.
“The SSPX have hardened their hearts.” - I ask you!

The “divisions” “especially with Williamson” is about the last word in unthinking hackeyed canards.

I had hoped that in a place like this, more people would a) be able to think for themselves; and

b ) not use the media as their sole source of “information”.

If you don’t know what you’re talking about, then don’t make such grandiose sweeping generalisations. Just say you don’t really know and leave it at that: keep quiet.
 
This is the sort of brash, unthinking, cliched generalisation that helps noone.
“The SSPX have hardened their hearts.” - I ask you!

The “divisions” “especially with Williamson” is about the last word in unthinking hackeyed canards.

I had hoped that in a place like this, more people would a) be able to think for themselves; and

b ) not use the media as their sole source of “information”.

If you don’t know what you’re talking about, then don’t make such grandiose sweeping generalisations. Just say you don’t really know and leave it at that: keep quiet.
Maybe if you stop guessing where I get my info, you would be better off. I actually have family who attend an SSPX Chapel for your information, so I know what I am talking about thank You! You have no right to silence anyone. Who do you think you are?

You ppl are like always whining. So here… Keep Quiet. I will pray for you.
:cool:

PAX CHRISTI
 
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What’s it all about?

In November 1970, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre officially founded the Society of Saint Pius X, in order to train traditional priests and keep the traditions of the Church. The Society was officially blessed and approved by the Church. An American, Cardinal Wright, the Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Clergy, wrote of the Society of Saint Pius X: “This Association has already exceeded the frontiers of Switzerland, and several ordinaries, in different parts of the world, praise and approve it. All of this, and especially the wisdom of the norms which direct and govern this Association, give much reason to hope for its success… the Society will certainly be able to conform to the end… for the distribution of the clergy in the world.”

Eighteen years later, in June of 1988, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre consecrated four bishops in order to guarantee the continuation of a work blessed and approved by the Church. Rome had agreed in principle on the point of Episcopal consecration, but did not agree on the Archbishop’s choice of candidates. He, nevertheless, went ahead with the consecrations, despite Rome’s disapproval. As a consequence…

CARDINAL GANTIN,
the Prefect of the Sacred Congregation of Bishops, wrongly declared the Archbishop Lefebvre had performed a “schismatic act” by ordaining four bishops in 1988 without papal permission and warned “the priests and the faithful…not to support the schism of Monsignor Lefebvre, otherwise they shall incur the very grave penalty of excommunication.” Cardinal Gantin erroneously quoted the Church’s Law (Canon 1364 & 1): “a schismatic act incurs automatic excommunication,” but since act incurs automatic excommunication,” but since there was no schism, there could be no excommunication.

POPE JOHN PAUL II
On the following day, the Pope made a similar, but non-juridical statement. “Everyone should be ware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offense against God and carried the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law (Canon 1364).” Yet, as his experts later provided: there was no schism in the first place and so there could be no excommunication.

CARDINAL CASTILLO LARA, J.C.D.
President of the Pontifical Commission for the Authentic Interpretation of Canon Law, explained that, “The act of consecrating a bishop (without the Pope’s permission) is no in itself a schismatic act” and so no excommunication applies. (La Reppublica, October 7, 1988).

COUNT NERI CAPPONI, D.CN.L., LL.D
The retired Professor of Canon Law at the University of Florence, well-known in Vatican legal circles and accredited to argue cases before Rome’s highest juridical body, the Apostolic Signatura, explains that for a schismatic act, it is not enough to merely consecrate a bishop without papal permission. “He must do something more, for instance, had he set up a hierarchy of his own, then it would have been a schismatic act. The fact is that Msgr. Lefebvre simply said: ‘I am consecrating bishops in order that my priestly order can continue. They don not tale the place of other bishops. I am not creating a parallel church’ Therefore this act was not, per se, schismatic” and so he is not excommunicated. (Latin Mass Magazine, May-June 1993)
 
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CARDINAL ALFONSE STICKLER
Former Prefect of the Vatican Archives and Library, served as an expert to four Vatican II commissions. Now living at the Vatican, he says: “Pope John Paul II, in 1986, asked a commission of nine cardinals two question. Firstly, did Pope Paul VI, or any other competent authority, legally forbid the widespread celebration of the Tridentine [Latin] Mass in the present day?’ The answer given by eight of the cardinals in ’86 was that, no, the Mass of Saint Pius V has never been suppressed. I can say this; I was one of the cardinals. There was another question very interesting. ‘Can any bishop forbid any priest in good standing from celebrating a Tridentine Mass again?’ The nine cardinals unanimously agreed that no bishop may forbid a Catholic priest from saying he Tridentine Mass. We have no official prohibition and I think that the Pope would never establish an Official prohibition… because of the words of Pope St. Pius V, who said this is the Mass forever.” (Latin Mass Magazine, May 5, 1995)

PROFESSOR GERINGER, J.C.D
Canon Lawyer at the University of Munich: “With the Episcopal consecrations, Archbishop Lefebvre was by no means creating a schism.”

CARDINAL EDWARD CASSIDY
The president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity wrote the following reply, o May 3, 1994, to an inquiry about the status of the Society of Saint Pius X:
“ Dear Sir… regarding your inquiry (March 25, 1994), I would point out at once that the Directory on Ecumenism is not concerned with the Society of Saint Pius X. the situation of the members of this Society is as internal matter of the Catholic Church. The Society is not another Church or Ecclesial Community in the meaning used in the Directory. Of course the Mass and Sacraments administered by the priests of the Society are Valid. The Bishops are validly, but not lawfully consecrated… I hope that this answers your letter satisfactorily.” Yours sincerely in the Lord Edward Cardinal Cassidy – President
 
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FR GERALD E. MURRAY, J.C.L.
Of the Archdiocese of New York, received his Licentiate in Canon Law at Rome’s famous Gregorian University, probably the Church’s most prestigious institution of higher learning, in June, 1995, after a successful defense of the lengthy thesis entitled, The Canonical Status of the Lay Faithful Associated with the Late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the Society of Saint Pius X: Are they Excommunicated as Schismatic?

“I have received a license in Canon Law and I’ve studied this topic, the excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre, for my license thesis… They’re not excommunicated as schismatic, because the Vatican has never said they are… I come to the conclusion that, canonically speaking, he’s not guilty of a schismatic act punishable by Canon Law. He’s guilty of an act of disobedience to the Pope, but he did it in such a way that he could avail himself of a provision of the law that would prevent him from being automatically excommunicated (latae sententiae) for this act.” Therefore, neither Archbishop Lefebvre, nor any of the bishops he consecrated, is excommunicated. “In the case of the Society of Saint Pius X, the Vatican never declared any priest or lay person to have become a schismatic.” Therefore the priest and faithful are not excommunicated.

“As far as I can see, the Holy See has never stated that mere attendance at a Mass said by a priest in the Society of Saint Pius X constitutes a schismatic act” (N.B. This assertion has just been verified by Rome in a letter of the Ecclesia Dei Commission dated September 24, 1996, N. 126/96, stating that “the faithful who assist at Masses celebrated by the priest of the Society of Saint Pius X are not necessarily excommunicated and we can well understand hoe a person in your situation would be attracted to their dignified ad reverent celebrations.”) “Let’s say that you knew that the priest at your parish was teaching contrary to the moral law or Catholic doctrine. Let’s say he denied the existence of Hell, or taught that divorced and remarried people could receive Communion. Could you go to a Society of Saint Pius X chapel to receive good doctrine? That seems better to me than hearing truly heretical sermons.” (Latin Mass Magazine, Fall, 1995)

FR PATRICK VALDINI, J.C.D.
Dean of the Faculty of Canon Law at the Catholic Institute of Paris explained that Archbishop Lefebvre did not commit a schismatic act by the consecrations, for he didn’t deny the Pope’s primacy. “It is not the consecrations of a bishop which created schism. What makes the schisms to give the bishop an apostolic mission.” This is something Archbishop Lefebvre never did (Question de Driot ou de Confiance, L’Homme Nouveau, 17 February, 1988).

The Experts in the Church Law and several high-ranking cardinals are in agreement that Archbishop Lefebvre did not perform a schismatic act and, consequently, is neither excommunicated on the grounds of schism or on any other grounds. The label of “Schismatic & Excommunicated” cannot be applied to Archbishop Lefebvre, nor any of his followers, for is lacks foundation and validity, which is what the Church’s experts have been saying since 1988 – the year of Archbishop Lefebvre’s four Episcopal consecrations.

Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict),
Cardinal Stickler,
Cardinal Lara,
Cardinal Cassidy,
Eminent Canon Lawyers,
The Church’s Gregorian University in Rome
And many more say that the Society of Saint Pius X is neither in Schism, nor is it excommunicated… and that anyone can fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending the Society’s Mass.
 
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